A Guide to Minor Factions and the Background Sim

[CMDR Endincite]

Selling at a loss pushing bust is nothing new on our end. As I laid out before (perhaps not very clearly), selling anything at a loss both reduces influence and pushes bad states.

Medicine at a loss = outbreak
Food = famine
Weapons = civil unrest
Everything else (?) = bust.

All this has been in play since at least 2.0, when we used it most heavily. The negative influence effect seemed to be gone for a while but not the state effect.

This all seems rather silly. Why would a faction care what *you* paid for a commodity or gained from a transaction? Whether or not they're getting something they want/need seems a more logical basis.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Selling at a loss pushing bust is nothing new on our end. As I laid out before (perhaps not very clearly), selling anything at a loss both reduces influence and pushes bad states.

Medicine at a loss = outbreak
Food = famine
Weapons = civil unrest
Everything else (?) = bust.

All this has been in play since at least 2.0, when we used it most heavily. The negative influence effect seemed to be gone for a while but not the state effect.

This all seems rather silly. Why would a faction care what *you* paid for a commodity or gained from a transaction? Whether or not they're getting something they want/need seems a more logical basis.

It is silly.

I suppose the idea is to make sure that things happen.

 

[_Flin_]

It is silly.

I suppose the idea is to make sure that things happen.

That assumes that this is intended behavior. As a programming IT professional this looks like a bug to me. As in "Noone ever assumed that people will intentionally trade for a loss."
Selling medicines at a loss causing outbreak... is just a plainly ridiculous mechanic. Hardly one that is in line with the scientific worldview of the Elite Universe and lore.

 

[jimbeau1571]

ETA: I also sold them at loss in small transactions,

That is all it was. A known effect from some time ago, that was thought by some to have been removed. If it was, it came back.
Counters people, everything is counters.
KISS

Buy something.. Count 1 boom
Sell something at loss. . Count 1 bust
Buy 10 of something 10 at a time .. Count 1
Sell 10 of something 1 at a time .. Count 1 x 10

Or something similarly simple to that.

Don't try and make it something it isn't. Dynamic.

 

[Sentenza]

That is all it was. A known effect from some time ago, that was thought by some to have been removed. If it was, it came back.
Counters people, everything is counters.
KISS

Buy something.. Count 1 boom
Sell something at loss. . Count 1 bust
Buy 10 of something 10 at a time .. Count 1
Sell 10 of something 1 at a time .. Count 1 x 10

Or something similarly simple to that.

Don't try and make it something it isn't. Dynamic.

I traded other goods at loss but never saw bust happening before. Though volume is higher this time. Well the obvious test is doing the same with other goods

 

[goemon]

Selling at a loss pushing bust is nothing new on our end. As I laid out before (perhaps not very clearly), selling anything at a loss both reduces influence and pushes bad states.

Medicine at a loss = outbreak
Food = famine
Weapons = civil unrest
Everything else (?) = bust. .

some speculations here - so, if somebody says now: this doesn't meet our data, i wouldn't be surprise.

i'm wondering about the function of imported/exported goods in station info, and trade routes in galaxy map. they have no practical usage (as any trader knows).

could it be, that they are used to calculate states independent of cmdr actions?

e.g. station info says "import grain", trade routes say: "import grain from here", but price from that source system/station is higher than the selling price -> leads to famine?

 

[Sentenza]

That assumes that this is intended behavior. As a programming IT professional this looks like a bug to me. As in "Noone ever assumed that people will intentionally trade for a loss."
Selling medicines at a loss causing outbreak... is just a plainly ridiculous mechanic. Hardly one that is in line with the scientific worldview of the Elite Universe and lore.

Not really. If we are given tools to create positive effects, then we should also have tools to create negative effects.

 

[jimbeau1571]

This all seems rather silly. Why would a faction care what *you* paid for a commodity or gained from a transaction? Whether or not they're getting something they want/need seems a more logical basis.

It would, looking from our perspective.
But looking from the Dev perspective, it's a mechanic to cast the illusion of something functioning like a dynamic market.
Again, this brings me to the conclusion that the BGS was never meant to be 'played' as we play it. Hence its ever changing, ever perplexing mechanic. And FDev reluctance to endulge us.
PP, despite it being awful IMHO, IS what they wanted us to 'play', hence its promotion, it's updates, it's constant Galnet feed etc. The little BGS 'states' update on Galnet isn't worth the text space it gets. Again, illusion.

Silly, to us. Because it isn't what we want.

 

[Jmanis]

It would, looking from our perspective.
But looking from the Dev perspective, it's a mechanic to cast the illusion of something functioning like a dynamic market.
Again, this brings me to the conclusion that the BGS was never meant to be 'played' as we play it. Hence its ever changing, ever perplexing mechanic. And FDev reluctance to endulge us.
PP, despite it being awful IMHO, IS what they wanted us to 'play', hence its promotion, it's updates, it's constant Galnet feed etc. The little BGS 'states' update on Galnet isn't worth the text space it gets. Again, illusion.

Silly, to us. Because it isn't what we want.

Yup. There's an endless list of what doesn't make sense; why can I kill 150 ships in a CZ and not take a rep hit, but destroy three outside a CZ and bam, rep hurt. Answer: Because you could force yourself out of being able to play the game due to the current mechanics around being Hostile if you took a rep hit (shameless plug: Let's fix being hostile and not make it a "punishment" state) As I mentioned here in reference to the background sim livestream from a ways back... the background sim is the background sim, not the foreground sim.

In that regard, the main purpose of the BGS is to create a malleable universe that changes to player interactions. While there's an element of "competition" to it, it's not the main reason for it to exist. Therefore some things will inherently make no sense... economic bust causes are a good example of this, simply because the economic system isn't that complex. Arguably, lots of for-profit trading should cause a bust... but that gets off the current topic. In the same vein, some things in the BGS are inequal, but that's "ok" because the BGS isn't meant to be a balanced, competitive framework.

Conversely, Powerplay exists solely for competitive galactic-conquest games. It's (meant to be) balanced so that all sides have a fair whack on the table. And that's why the BGS is completely divorced from Powerplay's implementation; because the BGS is inherently imbalanced, as it's designed simply for a living universe.

Frankly, Powerplay was a big missed opportunity to back the gameplay onto BGS-style mechanics (like missions for merits etc, instead of the forced merit-salt-grinder), but it is what it is.

 

[Jmanis]

On an aside... does anyone know if refueling/rearming/repairing at a station helps the station controller? I'd have thought not...

 

[goemon]

a mechanic to cast the illusion of something

isn't that basically a definition of what a simulation does?

simulating the weather won't make it rain -

 

[goemon]

On an aside... does anyone know if refueling/rearming/repairing at a station helps the station controller? I'd have thought not...

outfitting did, than was patched out... is it back?

in any case it will up the number of actions in a system.

 

[jimbeau1571]

isn't that basically a definition of what a simulation does?

simulating the weather won't make it rain -

A simulation mimics what happens in real life.
So weather simulation, it mimics rain without raining.
Illusion on the other hand, makes you think it is mimicking, when it is actually doing nothing of the sort, so your being fooled into thinking it is doing it.

And therefore, the BGS should be a BGI.

 

[CMDR Endincite]

Pushing the limits of simulation as a word really. If a flight simulator (just 1s and 0s converted to a graphic display) is a simulator then so is this. "A weather simulation" (which might be entirely digital) and "simulated weather" (which cannot, if the purpose is to give the illusion of weather) can be very different things without having to change the word. There's no definitional limitation on the *purpose* of the simulation.

Anyway, however it was designed, FDev is aware of and at least somewhat supports deliberate manipulation of the BGS (otherwise livestreams and Dev updates and PMFs are all counterproductive) so small modifications toward sensical input/output seem justified.

___
@goemon there are effects of (simulated) npc trade. A short video on how the trade simulation operates clearly indicates that prices are considered regionally. Having abundant palladium next door, for instance, will lower the selling price while being e.g. >30ly from food sources of medicine has clear effects on price, and perhaps on the prevalence of states (either through lowered health/wealth/quality of life regionally or by some more obscure trade-BGS interaction).

I've spent >2000 hours trading and would not call the ingame tools worthless, just limited. Yes, you have to go investigate what it tells you, but you're being directed along the right track within its range limit.

 

[DNA-Decay]

small modifications toward sensical input/output seem justified.

If we were playing scrabble I would challenge whether sensical is a word, but since it's just a forum, I'll allow it as being perfectly cromulent

@goemon there are effects of (simulated) npc trade. A short video on how the trade simulation operates clearly indicates that prices are considered regionally. Having abundant palladium next door, for instance, will lower the selling price while being e.g. >30ly from food sources of medicine has clear effects on price, and perhaps on the prevalence of states (either through lowered health/wealth/quality of life regionally or by some more obscure trade-BGS interaction).

Link to vid?
Or a search term?

 

[CMDR Endincite]

Trying to dig it up...bear with me. It's a look at things serverside; pretty obscure find.

 

[CMDR Endincite]

Aha. What I thought had been one source is actually several. Some newsletters and a video that can be "mined" for interesting data:

http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=dcbf6b86b4b0c7d1c21b73b1e&id=ee05d74c71

<http://archive.is/TKB62>

https://youtu.be/NbvEay_YJy0

In addition to these the regional impact of supply/demand becomes clear just by trading and trying to build routes ingame. State prevalence impact is correlation/speculation but seems to add up.

 

[Roybe]

Aha. What I thought had been one source is actually several. Some newsletters and a video that can be "mined" for interesting data:

http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=dcbf6b86b4b0c7d1c21b73b1e&id=ee05d74c71

<http://archive.is/TKB62>

https://youtu.be/NbvEay_YJy0

In addition to these the regional impact of supply/demand becomes clear just by trading and trying to build routes ingame. State prevalence impact is correlation/speculation but seems to add up.

There is no 'regional impact'. Each system is a trade island unto itself.

Somewhere around minute 28-9 in this video the devs explain how transactions work and are cleared (Watch the whole video, since it explains a lot about how the game actually works):

https://youtu.be/EvJPyjmfdz0

 

[Sentenza]

There is no 'regional impact'. Each system is a trade island unto itself.

Actually I think he might be right, or at least there is something going on beyond the local system. As I said I have been moving a lot of a certain item in the past few days, and I am definitely seeing drastic price changes in neighboring systems.

 

[goemon]

I've spent >2000 hours trading and would not call the ingame tools worthless, just limited. Yes, you have to go investigate what it tells you, but you're being directed along the right track within its range limit.

sorry, i was sloppy ... i use them, too. but i'm really wondering why import/export is ingame at every station.

Actually I think he might be right, or at least there is something going on beyond the local system. As I said I have been moving a lot of a certain item in the past few days, and I am definitely seeing drastic price changes in neighboring systems.

first of all, i don't think somebody set down and putted import/export and routes manually into station info/galaxy map.

which means, they have to be a product of the BGS.

but do they have an effect? on prices? on states?