Avoiding Group Control...

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One of the problems with eve is that its almost impossible to catch up with established players who've been in the game for a long time. Provided thats not repeated in ED people will be able to respond if they choose to. ;)

With respects to eve, sorry but that's complete nonsense and shows your lack of understanding for the game. (How long did you say you played for?) I'll let someone else explain the whys of how you are wrong but for now let's just say, not everything is fought with capital ships and high end skill points In fact they are really just toys for the big boys nothing more.
 
Just wanted to make sure we understand instancing. AFAIK, when you arrive in a system, you will not be put in a 32 player instance. You will be put in an instance along with anyone you arrived with and anyone who's at the emergence point.

You then travel around the system, merging instances with others that you meet (and splitting off from them when one of you supercruises away without the other following).

If I was organising a swarm, I'd pick the systems I want to influence. If you think of FFE or FE2, on which ED's political setting is based, there are a very manageable number of systems that you need to influence to close off the Core. Something like 10 would cover the main systems of all 3 polities.

Then, you organise into gangs of 4 or so. That's enough to gank many players playing alone or in small groups. 25 gangs per system, all communicating via TeamSpeak, so if one gang hits trouble it puts out a call and they converge. How long does it currently take to fly between areas in a system? A couple of minutes, I'd assume, so that original gang just has to evade for a short while until 20 people turn up (who'll all join the one instance in that location, the 'Principal Instance' in the OP).

If your gang mates are offline, you play the game "normally" to generate credits to fund your swarming. That's a pretty good reason to prevent casual transfers of credits between players (standard contract rates set by FD would allow players to transfer credits for services without allowing unrestricted transfers). Sure, there are ways around that (like dumping gold), but that takes time and effort if FD make it a crime to dump within a station's safety zone.

Not saying that'll work in the final release though. But then, I've not had years of practice across a number of games with this sort of thing.
 
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A lot of good ideas in this thread, which... was the point.

Re Cosmos and PacalB: Actually goons became famous because they WERE far behind in skill points and made up for it in sheer numbers.
 

Praevarus

P
I've never had any run-ins with goons or know what they're capable of doing. Assuming they are able to exploit game mechanics to the extent some of you claim, are you guys still in favor of Frontier selling credits so people can buy ships and such? Fleets of goons in Anacondas on the first day.
 
No problem with it as long as the exchange rate is set by FD and they set it stupidly high, at least on release (they may have to lower it sometime after that if gold sellers find it profitable to operate).

I've suggested a start rate of £1:CR1,000. So that means £150-200 to equip a Cobra and £3,000-£4,000 to equip an Anaconda. I don't think we'll be knee-deep in them :) . There's more risk of tooled-up gamma players being a PITA to new sidewinder owners, IMO.
 
A lot of good ideas in this thread, which... was the point.

Re Cosmos and PacalB: Actually goons became famous because they WERE far behind in skill points and made up for it in sheer numbers.

/me splutters into green tea ...

"Shhhhhh... we've all played the game, we all should know this shouldn't we?"

*Cough ... cough ... cough ...*

:p
 
The thought has been milling around all day, partially because of the DDF after launch thread, partially because of an interview with EVE Goonswarm's Alliance Leader The Mittani that PacalB linked to in that thread (the interview starts about 9 and half minutes in) and partially because ever since I've played EVE I've hated that 'Win at All Costs' mentality that that particular group prefers. It takes the fun out of playing for the casual gamer where one group dominates the game. ...

This has been discussed a lot already. My general take is that Frontier are designing out the possibility, though, of course, this may not be as easy as it sounds.

EvE and ED are very different in many ways, and I strongly suspect that Goonswarm style domination will not be possible or relevant in ED. Rather than re-write my more detailed thoughts, (read 'random babblings'), I'll just link to a blog post I wrote about this when I first joined the ED community: Elite Dangerous is NOT EvE Online.
 
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It's the land of Björk remember.;)

I'm sure green tea's lovely (Pah - fruit juice with hot water) :)

Anyhow - Back on track

As long as FD retain control of their game anything any external group does in game can be undone by FD with a few lines of Code.

Things I'd expect to see to undermine this:

Social Engineering on FD and Staff (Including Forum Mods where relevant)- invites to post on SA/The Mittani.com etc.
Loads of smooching and sucking up. (Meta-game groups tend not to do something without good reason and if there's a favour of any description, eventually that favour will be called in.)

The second thing they could work on would be player representation. As it stands at the moment with no subs and no reason then there's ultimately no need for FD to give this. Even the dubious positive PR points can be undone in a moments drunken rambling by a member.

Something along the lines of the t20 scandal would be ideal - No corporations make this nigh on impossible.

Try to impugn the DDF but unfortunately FD would appear to have a tight grip of them (Information and power wise) so that makes it harder to attack this angle. Manufacture a scandal - misrepresent the role and power of the DDF - attack it in any way possible. Then when it's weak use that to agitate for player representation. Or agitate for the Forum to be opened up in such a manner as you can stuff it with your guys and then try to steer it into a form of Player representation.

Possibly try similar tactics on the Mods, if they've not already got a person/people in there. Loads of complaints against moderator decisions - anything to undermine them.

I'd expect loads of Forum PvP along these lines.

Once the above are in place then push for gameplay changes - it's all for the good of the game you know. Corporations/Player owned territory and the rest.
 
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So stop developing the game the majority of people would appear to have backed, play the Goons game but no doubt play it worse, and have EvE 2.0 with probably 50/60K active players at any one time (After 10 years). No thanks


As for the ignore mechanism as a level of protection - my understanding is that it's been steered into something thats fairly weak - to protect the PvP game style. But as with everything currently until it's tested there's no way to be sure.

I don't see what your talking about - you'll be able to avoid anyone you want with ignores and single and private groups. Most of the experiences people are complaining about are a result of hacking or exploiting and people being able to bypass consequences of their actions. Once these things are plugged and we see a more feature full game it will nip much of whats been happening of late in the bud.

really... if you blinkering people cant see it... let me spell it out... ED has a 32 person instance limit... The goons have a 5000+ membership list... the Goons.. break into 17 man squads.. (17 because 2x17 = 34 = new instance) they then swarm 20 systems with these 17 man squads and gank EVERYTHING that comes through..... AI PC.. doesn't matter... once they gank a few haulers, they then spread out a bit... pretty soon... they control a 100 system wide area...

in a 400 billion star game is that much?.. nope... BUT when they control 15-20 major star ports through sheer numbers....well... you have EvE 2.0 with joysticks

I have to say, with respect to Jeff, I think there is a bit of paranoia going on here. I am not the least bit fearful of the goons. Infact I'd go so far to say I will crush them given the opportunity. ;)
 
EvE and ED are very different in many ways, and I strongly suspect that Goonswarm style domination will not be possible or relevant in ED. Rather than re-write my more detailed thoughts, (read 'random babblings'), I'll just link to a blog post I wrote about this when I first joined the ED community: Elite Dangerous is NOT EvE Online.

It's obvious to everyone and one of the big misunderstandings about Goonswarm is that they'd use the same tactics in ED that they'd use in EVE and we chuckle to ourselves that obviously that won't work.

Goons don't just play EVE, though they do thrive there. They'll look at how ED DOES work and try and find loopholes and workarounds. Playing the system for their own ends. The point of this thread is to warn people not to get too complacent in our 'designing it out' but think; How would you dominate Elite Dangerous with large numbers? And How can we stop it?

This isn't a wild Cassandra-like prophecy (though it could become such). ED is now definitely now on their radar, Mittens has even written an article on it. And they'll try to dominate ED on launch.

I don't want to be proven right or be back here after launch with a smug smile saying 'I told you so...' I love Elite too much for that.

I have to say, with respect to Jeff, I think there is a bit of paranoia going on here. I am not the least bit fearful of the goons. Infact I'd go so far to say I will crush them given the opportunity. ;)

I used to say the same about PacalB, but some things around the forums recently changed my mind.
 
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What an interesting thread. So many good ideas here.

And they'll try to dominate ED on launch.

I've read all the arguments, and I've yet to be convinced that it's possible. Certainly not through the methods you outlined in your OP. If you had tens of thousands of people, you might, using shifts, be able to "dominate" a few star systems with blockades and such, before the bounties became too much.

But the game is impossibly huge. Even the populated areas are impossibly huge. Seriously. Bigger than any other game ever.

What the Goons managed to do in EVE is impressive, certainly. However, no matter what tactics they use, there is simply no facility or loophole that can be exploited to do anything like the same thing in E: D.

The game doesn't support megalomaniacs. Every other game does in some way. It's that simple.

However, it's kind of fun to talk about it... and also someone raised a good point earlier in the thread - it's the fear of them that is more powerful than the reality of it. That is what you need to concern yourself with. A relatively small bunch of nutters with an agenda can cause a little damage, but they are essentially terrorists. If you are afraid of them, or capitulate to them, or even go along with them - they will hold power over you.

The game can handle the Goons. Can you?
 
Only stumbled on this thread now from a DDF link. Way too busy at work to keep up with all these fast moving threads. :(

I havent read the whole thread but based on a similar discussion over on the DDF, I'd been formulating a scenario that would cause some widespread disruption to the playing field (though not particularly outside the parameters of the game, but the tactics involved would certainly involve a certain level of griefing).

Creating the backdrop
In order to facilitate this, because we don't really know what Frontier are planning for dynamic content within the game, I've had to imagine a likely but currently fictitious scenario we could find in the end game. Take the Endless War scenario that most of the Alpha players should be familiar with. Its the idea of 2 factions constantly at war with each other. Frontier could likely scale this up where real systems are at stake between a constant conflict between the Federation and Empire. That means commanders could make a difference in winning (or losing territory), having the war jump between star systems as battles are won or lost.

Setting the Scene
Now, consider that I am GoonDangerous Director (The Elite Dangerous Branch Manager for Goonswarm). My idea, just for the hell of it, is to see if I can disrupt the Empires stabilty and push the war all the way to the Emperor's seat in Achernar. How will the game mechanics handle this scenario and what will the casual players do? Now normally this would be nigh on impossible because you'd never have the manpower and the tech to be consistent about this. But with good oraganization and planning, it may be possible. Something that the Goons just happen to be good at.
Call this Operation A. In order to do this I need to win all battles between the border and Archernar. [Peripheral impact - moving the war to there alters the state of one of the most populous systems in the game from Corporate State (or whatever safe state) to a state of war. This brings issues (and benefits) where it becomes dangerous for people to trade here, supply and demand is altered, carebears leave and go and cry elsewhere, etc ]. In order to win battles I need a lot of players with powerful ships guaranteed to win. My requirement would be to have a full 32 person instance supplied with Anacondas armed to the teeth with the best weaponry man can buy before I can engage in any of the battles.
Fine, we've got the players (we're the Goons, of course we've got the players). But we need the ships and the weaponry. We DON'T have to worry about training up skilled pilots. They're adequate from the moment their account is created, we just give them the Anacondas the moment their account is born.
But the ships and weapons don't come from nowhere. So we need a funding plan.

Funding Plan
So enter Operation B. Heres where things get interesting. The above scenario is a guess, but the next step is based on whats in the game now. The quickest way to get cash is to pirate. The method? One of the simplest ways to pirate is to have gangs of 15 to 20 GoonKids in starter Sidewinders and Cobras hanging together. And then its a matter of blockading a station just outside its safe zone. Any station. Every station. The busier, the better. So that every ship that leaves the station (or approaches it) gets ganked. And I mean EVERY ship, player and NPC. (Note that if you are not running IDENT OFF, if thats even an option, you can guarantee you will be popped). What single player, even a well armed player, can withstand 20 beginner cobras barbecueing your asp off? And I doubt that hiring 2 henchwingmen would be of assistance either. Once the flying tincan has popped, GoonHauler Jake, on standby just out of sensor range will fly in with his Lakon 9 Salvager, collect all salvagable items, rince and repeat until the cargo hold is full and then head into the station to sell them, adding to the Goon credit account (this role is probably assigned to one player). Any GoonKids loosing their ship can come out fighting straightaway in a shiny new starter Cobra. Lost nothing. And who cares about bounties on a throwaway commander you don't care about? (Note this also works well in Ironman mode, but for more consistent results, better to play in Casual mode).
Repeat this as a CTA with hundreds of GoonKid teams affecting as many stations as you can in the core systems, while in the real world you are rolling this action around the world for 24 hours. Done right, this will bring in millions in a very short time. And kept going daily, this is a really good way of having a constant funding for something like the war effort of Operation A.

In Conclusion
Obviously some details need to be worked out, like ensuring ways of transferring money to the right accounts, or buying ships for other players of your team, etc. Most players would run with two characters. One cheap ganking character and the other would be running a setup for the Endless War scenario. (Its worth repeating here that that scenario is a guess, but it could be replaced by any scenario worth exploiting in the final game, where Operation B would just be the manner in which you can fund the greater team.)
Yes, there are probably holes in the ideas above, but those are minor details to be worked out later. Hopefully you see where I am going on this thought process and how this could be a way to 'dominate' the game. They wont be out trying to dominate players, its more about bending the game rules to their whims, and too bad if it affects other players at the same time.
 
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I never had any problem with the G. in EvE.
I don't expect to have any in E: D
.

I was in Goonswarm and they add cool gameplay, but when i was not with them i never had a problem with them. Like 99% of the population the people who complained about them are the people who never even met them and just thought they were "the bad guys" - aka the same people who thought every German soldier was a SS officer. LOL!

The solution is already in the design: Play offline / online with privacy on.

There ya go, no Goons to grief you.

The group system imo is most destructive idea, from a gameplay perspective.

400 billion stars, police, bounties, navies and a ton of other safeguards against pvp (32 player instances as well), and people want to the ability to toggle off pvp, do whatever in 'anarchy" systems etc.... Too hard to explain but i know a lot of people alrdy on this forum explained it 20 times over.

Couldn't you just add them to some kind of block or ignore list... something like the griefers hell.. where the only game they dominate is their own... and sit their being a mighty force battling NPCs... which could be fun.

AS per my other reply, these gameplay systems are a joke with everything already in the game. Goonswarm or not.
 
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