Avoiding Group Control...

[Juniper]

So, to recap... the inbuilt game elements to counter whatever the Goonswarm attempt to do are:

• Instance limit of 32 players max.
• No territorial control possible.
• No player corporations / guilds.
• No player run markets.
• No manufacturing.
• No player owned persistent structures.
• Death outside Ironman is relatively painless.
• Exponential bounty system and NPC response.
• Possible hiding of who is a player and who isn't.
• No player council to be influenced or controlled.
• Private groups
• Single player.
• Enormous galaxy.
• A watchful player base, hardened by experiences in other games, who will not tolerate griefing.
• Ignore list which works on an account (not character) basis.

Any more for any more?

Don't know about you guys, but I'd say we're fairly safe.

 

[Harrimon Hoxx]

Not funny. Not even a little bit.

I genuinely hope he didn't take Mittani's advice.

Why are we even giving "airtime" to mittens and his gang of wannabees? Although the OP raised a valid point we are in danger of giving free publicity and maintaining propaganda for a group who have no interest in video games other than to cause upset for other players who aren't in awe of them.

 

[Ende]

ED has none - no choke points; no player / guild controlling regions of space; instancing limits us to 32 players max (+ NPC); sorry but currently ED does not allow for the same to happen. Yes they can zerg but instancing rules can take care of that. (Or face a whooping and learn)

(ive just skimmed through this thread so i hope my points have not already been covered!)

Ok, let me explain something about instancing and exactly how its possible to abuse it to your own advantage...

Guild Wars 2 has recently introduced technology which connects all of their realms together, theyve called it megaserver. This tech means that every map fills up when it reaches its limit and more maps of the same location are created for the overspill. We know that each map can have dozens of 'instances' of the same map, all full of players.

The problem with this tech is that players of the same guild, on the same realm, on the same friends list still get dropped into different instances of the same map!

And its because of this issue (which FD will also encounter) that the game devs, Anet, introduced a feature called 'Taxiing'. This means u party up with someone on another instance of the same map and u can taxi over to their instance of the same map.

Now... I predict that Goonswarm would use this exact system to cover every open instance of the same star system of each star system.

All they need to do is have ONE player on each instance. This is totally the opposite to how u guys r predicting this issue will unfold. With one player on each instance they can taxi in their guys between instances to join any fight that occurs.

This is how i foresee ED will be exploited by a mega-guild such as Goonswarm.

I expect FD will have to introduce the taxiing tech because i guarantee there will be issues of people in the same group (or preference list) ending up in different instances of the same star system. GW2 have been trying to fix this exact issue for a year and Anet is a much bigger company than FD.

 

[Space_Killer69]

So, to recap... the inbuilt game elements to counter whatever the Goonswarm attempt to do are:

Spoiler

• Instance limit of 32 players max.
• No territorial control possible.
• No player corporations / guilds.
• No player run markets.
• No manufacturing.
• No player owned persistent structures.
• Death outside Ironman is relatively painless.
• Exponential bounty system and NPC response.
• Possible hiding of who is a player and who isn't.
• No player council to be influenced or controlled.
• Private groups
• Single player.
• Enormous galaxy.
• A watchful player base, hardened by experiences in other games, who will not tolerate griefing.

Any more for any more?

Don't know about you guys, but I'd say we're fairly safe.

I can't think of any - but that's why I'd make a crap Operations and Plans guy.


The metagame is what's going to hurt, there's just too many ways to play it from obvious "Open Forum PvP" through to more nefarious means.

Hence I mentioned the Mods as one possible attack vector. Have a Mod in your pocket, you have someones email address (Hands up who used their real day to day email to register?). You most likely have their IP - ISP's tend to allocate the same IP to accounts these days.

So far the Mods have been hand picked from people who were part of the "Elite Dream" since well before kickstarter. Even if they are members of Something Awfull, or another Gaming Clan I'd like to think their loyalties lie with ED and not elsewhere and I'm happy to believe that until proven otherwise.

Likewise the DDF. People who committed for Elite not Empires in Space.

But truth be told I think both groups are going to be in for a torrid time. Even a relatively innocent thread or incident has the potential to be blown out of all proportion:

="http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22850"

Even a well meaning seemingly sensible gameplay mechanic may well open doors that should'nt be opened:

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22761

An old PIRA quote springs to mind:

You have to be lucky every time - we just have to be lucky once.

But just like the people who have to live under circumstances where a terrorist campaign or civil war is going on. You can't allow it to dominate your every waking moment, you have to be streetwise, but not crippled by apprehension. Otherwise the other side win by default.

 

[Juniper]

All they need to do is have ONE player on each instance. This is totally the opposite to how u guys r predicting this issue will unfold. With one player on each instance they can taxi in their guys between instances to join any fight that occurs.

E: D doesn't really work that way. YOU are the instance, and as you travel around, your instance "bubble" moves with you. When your bubble intersects with another (think Venn Diagrams) you see each other. This can happen up to 31 times, after which the intersection list is full & you don't see anyone new until someone leaves your intersection.

Now, it's possible that Goonswarm (or anyone) could have people patrolling around looking for others to cause trouble with - and that's something which may indeed happen, but it's something which is covered effectively by the NPC response & bounty system, and the sheer scale of the galaxy play area.

 

[Ende]

E: D doesn't really work that way. YOU are the instance, and as you travel around, your instance "bubble" moves with you. When your bubble intersects with another (think Venn Diagrams) you see each other. This can happen up to 31 times, after which the intersection list is full & you don't see anyone new until someone leaves your intersection.

Now, it's possible that Goonswarm (or anyone) could have people patrolling around looking for others to cause trouble with - and that's something which may indeed happen, but it's something which is covered effectively by the NPC response & bounty system, and the sheer scale of the galaxy play area.

So how with that tech would it be possible to play with your friends?

If the instance is created around yourself then surely u will play mainly solo right?

I can assure u that there will be tech issues of getting people on the same friends list to fall into the same instance... its a tech issue other games r trying to fix right now. Its not a perfect or smooth system.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

So how with that tech would it be possible to play with your friends?

If the instance is created around yourself then surely u will play mainly solo right?

I can assure u that there will be tech issues of getting people on the same friends list to fall into the same instance... its a tech issue other games r trying to fix right now. Its not a perfect or smooth system.

It does it by prioritising the "bubbles" that get connected together.

 

[Dr Wookie]

So, to recap... the inbuilt game elements to counter whatever the Goonswarm attempt to do are:

• Instance limit of 32 players max.
• No territorial control possible.
• No player corporations / guilds.
• No player run markets.
• No manufacturing.
• No player owned persistent structures.
• Death outside Ironman is relatively painless.
• Exponential bounty system and NPC response.
• Possible hiding of who is a player and who isn't.
• No player council to be influenced or controlled.
• Private groups
• Single player.
• Enormous galaxy.
• A watchful player base, hardened by experiences in other games, who will not tolerate griefing.

Any more for any more?

Don't know about you guys, but I'd say we're fairly safe.

Don't forget the arbitrarily powerful security forces and navies

EDIT, oh, you didn't !

 

[Juniper]

So how with that tech would it be possible to play with your friends?

If the instance is created around yourself then surely u will play mainly solo right?

It's true that most of the time you will be on your own. It's a huge galaxy.

The way it will work with your friends is you 'group' together, either through a private group or through an Alliance. The matchmaking engine will then try and put you together if there is a decision to be made.

So, let's say there are 60 players in an area of space you enter. 5 of them are your friends. You would see those, plus 26 other 'randoms'. If any of those 60 are on your ignore list, there would be less chance of any of them being in that list of 26.

If 40 people left that area of space, but those on your ignore list were still there, you'd see them.

 

[Juniper]

Don't forget the arbitrarily powerful security forces and navies

EDIT, oh, you didn't !

No, but I did forget the ignore list.

 

[Ende]

It does it by prioritising the "bubbles" that get connected together.

Ok i think i get this idea....

Does that mean that in reality u can have many more players than 32 in the same star system?... It just means that u will only see 32 other players, the rest r there but not appearing to u?

Because if thats the case then they are not using any form of instancing tech. It means that there is only 1 instance in existence for each star system.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Its probably also worth pointing out that Eve also did not have player controlled structures, regions or systems, or alliances, war dec when it first went live. These were all added over time either by reaction to how the player base were using Eve or via lobbying and took a number of months and years to be implemented.

I fully remember running M0o's blockades, taking part in Burgerking control fights and the North War. I think there's a few Snigg's about these parts also who I have traded scars with during my stints in the Caldari Navy.

The point is though the game doesn't and will likely not have these features in at launch, but as with most of the successful dominance strategies played by various groups (including GS) its a long game and as pointed out part of the metagame is to get the game into a position where winning is possible.

 

[Gibbonici]

I expect FD will have to introduce the taxiing tech because i guarantee there will be issues of people in the same group (or preference list) ending up in different instances of the same star system. GW2 have been trying to fix this exact issue for a year and Anet is a much bigger company than FD.

Star systems aren't instanced like GW2's maps are. ED's instances are very localised and dynamic, and there's a ton of rules regarding how they're populated. No doubt people will figure out ways to game those rules to their own advantage (metagamers being metagamers and all), but if a station or POI or anything else gets dominated or blockaded there's always a way through it - the private group.

As has been pointed out many times before (with various levels of disappointment), every single piece of domination gameplay is cancelled out by ED's group system.

 

[Gibbonici]

Ok i think i get this idea....

Does that mean that in reality u can have many more players than 32 in the same star system?... It just means that u will only see 32 other players, the rest r there but not appearing to u?

Because if thats the case then they are not using any form of instancing tech. It means that there is only 1 instance in existence for each star system.

Exactly that.

 

[CaptainSodom]

E: D doesn't really work that way. YOU are the instance, and as you travel around, your instance "bubble" moves with you. When your bubble intersects with another (think Venn Diagrams) you see each other. This can happen up to 31 times, after which the intersection list is full & you don't see anyone new until someone leaves your intersection.

Now, it's possible that Goonswarm (or anyone) could have people patrolling around looking for others to cause trouble with - and that's something which may indeed happen, but it's something which is covered effectively by the NPC response & bounty system, and the sheer scale of the galaxy play area.

[edit2: Gibbonici provided info pretty much nullifying my post below, left here for laughs.]

That's not how instancing works. Maybe FD has some super-duper fancy new instancing tech which works the way you describe, but that would be pretty big news.

I recall that FD has said that each system can house 32 players, and spillover would go over to a second instance, and so on. Therefore each system has 1 instance by default, and a second one is automatically spawned the second a 33rd player joins the system.

So in your 60 man example, there would be two instances, first with 32, second with 28.

That is my understanding of how the plan for instancing in E: D works, anyone with better knowledge feel free to correct me.

[edit: quoted the wrong post, fixed.]

 

[Gibbonici]

That's not how instancing works. Maybe FD has some super-duper fancy new instancing tech which works the way you describe, but that would be pretty big news.

I recall that FD has said that each system can house 32 players, and spillover would go over to a second instance, and so on.

So in your 60 man example, there would be two instances, first with 32, second with 28.

That is my understanding of how the plan for instancing in E: D works, anyone with better knowledge feel free to correct me.

It doesn't work like MMO instanced maps. It works on the number of players who can connect to each other over the P2P network. There can be thousands of players in the same star system, but any one player will only be able to see 31 one them (obviously those 32 players will only be able to see each other). If one of those players flies out of sensor range and-then-some, they will create their own instance (or join an adjacent one). If another players flies within range of the first instance (and they're not in an instance with other players already) then their instance will merge with it.

I realise that this probably isn't explained very clearly

There are a few standard MMO terms that FD use in very different ways, instancing and grouping being two of them.

EDIT: Of course, none of this necessarily means that a variation of Ende's scenario couldn't work, but if it becomes a game-breaking problem for anyone effected by it, they've always got the private group option where they won't be instanced with the Goons or whoever.

 

[Juniper]

That's not how instancing works. Maybe FD has some super-duper fancy new instancing tech which works the way you describe, but that would be pretty big news.

I recall that FD has said that each system can house 32 players, and spillover would go over to a second instance, and so on.

So in your 60 man example, there would be two instances, first with 32, second with 28.

That is my understanding of how the plan for instancing in E: D works, anyone with better knowledge feel free to correct me.

You're right, there would be two instances in a 60 man scenario. Sorry, I should have made that more clear.

However, it is the matchmaking engine which decides who goes into which instance, and it's a dynamic thing... i.e. it will completely reconfigure itself appropriately as soon as anyone joins or leaves using its own internal rules.

Ende's question was about how (s)he would play with his/her friends.

As far as I'm aware, this is how the devs have described it working.

 

[ianw]

It's true that most of the time you will be on your own. It's a huge galaxy.

The way it will work with your friends is you 'group' together, either through a private group or through an Alliance. The matchmaking engine will then try and put you together if there is a decision to be made.

So, let's say there are 60 players in an area of space you enter. 5 of them are your friends. You would see those, plus 26 other 'randoms'. If any of those 60 are on your ignore list, there would be less chance of any of them being in that list of 26.

If 40 people left that area of space, but those on your ignore list were still there, you'd see them.

Ok i think i get this idea....

Does that mean that in reality u can have many more players than 32 in the same star system?... It just means that u will only see 32 other players, the rest r there but not appearing to u?

Because if thats the case then they are not using any form of instancing tech. It means that there is only 1 instance in existence for each star system.

Exactly that.

Interesting stuff - is this confirmed somewhere or the sum of the best guesses of people with techy knowledge?

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Interesting stuff - is this confirmed somewhere or the sum of the best guesses of people with techy knowledge?

Mark Allen replied with some of the background info on how bubbles (FD calls them Islands) work to my thread about floating point positional rounding errors possible as you get away from the origin of whatever 3D space is modelled. The rest is from my stint as a producer of Falcon4: Allied Force which uses very similar technologies (the engine for that title goes back to the early 90's).

 

[Juniper]

Interesting stuff - is this confirmed somewhere or the sum of the best guesses of people with techy knowledge?

Mike Evans patiently explained it to dunces like myself in the DDF (available in the archive). I forget which thread it was now, I suspect one of the Groups ones, but after a quick look I couldn't immediately find it. But I know I didn't dream it.