Building the game around NOT walking!

[Commander Biscuit]

As far as I understood it, tele-presence was an obvious safety feature so that wingmen wouldn't die when their flimsy ships were shot down.

As for getting out of the ships: Just assume it wont happen, then it's a nice surprise if it does. Elite has more than enough gameplay without pointless walking around to closely inspect the coffee machine.

 

[Ziljan]

By the year 3000 we as a collective will have finally successfully identified ourselves as nonphysical entities and with that have the psychic cohesion to no longer
need to drag these neuromechanical water bags around to perform actions ...just as we in ED do now (even tho when you look down the subc habit of seeing arms still lingers) and thus having space legs will be
a massive downgrade.

Say no to space legs ---yuk

So it begins...

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As far as I understood it, tele-presence was an obvious safety feature so that wingmen wouldn't die when their flimsy ships were shot down.

As for getting out of the ships: Just assume it wont happen, then it's a nice surprise if it does. Elite has more than enough gameplay without pointless walking around to closely inspect the coffee machine.

Telepresence began in the innocuous turret view on the SRV. A short range affair. Then it was increased to 30km for SLF. And now it has a 100,000 LY range in multicrew. Do I detect a trend? Arbitrary increases in teleportation to accommodate a complete lack of coherent design plan for the future?

 

[Frenotx]

As far as I understood it, tele-presence was an obvious safety feature so that wingmen wouldn't die when their flimsy ships were shot down.

As for getting out of the ships: Just assume it wont happen, then it's a nice surprise if it does. Elite has more than enough gameplay without pointless walking around to closely inspect the coffee machine.

...But I can't reach the coffee machine from here.

 

[KospY]

Sorry guys but I really don't understand why people want space legs... Elite is a space simulation game, not a FPS. If people want to shoot thing, just play your favorite FPS or wait Star Citizen...
I really hope frontier will not loose YEARS of development time for this useless feature. I rather prefer them to focus on improving the current game mechanics and extending the richness of the universe (atmospheric planet, comets, procedural cities, oceans...)
I keep dreaming of flying my ship through gas giant clouds or across the oceans of some beautiful earth like planet. Please frontier, don't break this!

 

[playfuldreamer]

There is just not enough rep to sufficiently cover all of the wonderful points being made. Suffice it to say that I agree FD seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.

 

[mistohise]

Personally I'm happy with this game being about flying ships and not walking and would much rather that dev attention stays on what you can do with your ship rather than any walking around in or outside of it.

 

[Mephane]

Sorry guys but I really don't understand why people want space legs... Elite is a space simulation game, not a FPS. If people want to shoot thing, just play your favorite FPS or wait Star Citizen...

FD themselves talked very early already about space legs being planned for post-launch content, even showed some concept art for that at the time. It was FD themselves who instilled this interest.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I've been worried about this ever since we got the blacked out transition screen for SRVs. At this rate walking around in your ship will be a cosmetic add-on that ends up being tacked on as a timesink that will be ignored/bypassed in combat. I kind of doubt that we'll even ever get seating animations. And moving about the ship will be a blacked out cutscene where we instantly appear in the different rooms. Likewise at stations.

I'm thinking spacelegs are going to be wasted effort. An optional setting that puts you at a competitive disadvantage.

I have high hopes for legs... and not for mundane tasks, like walking over to the SRV hanger, but for more actually productive tasks - such as making repairs to our ship's hulls, or walking across the surface of an alien world - perhaps to study alien artifacts like a real scientist. Or to infiltrate an enemy facility.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

So it begins...

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Telepresence began in the innocuous turret view on the SRV. A short range affair. Then it was increased to 30km for SLF. And now it has a 100,000 LY range in multicrew. Do I detect a trend? Arbitrary increases in teleportation to accommodate a complete lack of coherent design plan for the future?

Sounds like a standard practice in videogames. When first implementing a feature, it might not work properly or make sense without future adjustments.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

"Space legs" are overrated anyways....I mean it is the future and "walking" in space should be a thing from the past. The future belongs to those who "float"

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9e/63/7b/9e637bd0a243f6f8005010b80b019b78.png

If you're going to float, at least have the decency to float like a Dominar.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

I do think frontier has shot themselves in the currently-nonexistent foot by having space legs come so late in the development plan. There's a lot of stuff that will need to be redesigned once it's added in. Even core stuff, like how cargo is loaded / unloaded. It would look odd to stand in the cargo bay, and have an entire hold worth of cargo just suddenly appear. Continuing to have a mission board, instead of walking to the individual contracts and talking to them is a missed opportunity. Stuff like that would dramatically change the time scale of individual missions. One play season may only be enough time for one or two missions if things moved at a realistic first-person scale. The payouts and effects of missions would need major rebalancing.

As much as I'd like the game to take a slower pace, I'm sure this isn't going to happen and I sincerely hope so. FD just added telepresence because they figured casual players would be put off by having to fly their ship to a certain location and not use it as a result - what makes you think they'll ever add anything that slows anything down?

In the case of 2.3 I don't have a strong opinion. I can perfectly understand people won't coordinate and fly around for 20 minutes just to be play a third person rail-shooter or fly a fighter for a few minutes. I wouldn't do it myself, but don't care because it won't affect my gameplay at all.

The best I can hope for with walking around is FD keeping it purely optional just as crews. In the case of walking to take a mission, I'd be opposed because it doesn't add any gameplay. E.g. I'd be all for real-time ship repairs because although it wouldn't add gameplay, it would enable interesting decisions and thus could add depth to multiple ship ownership.

Can't see either for walking around.

(On a side note if you want to reach the coffee machine, get a Vive, however reaching it isn't all that spectacular )

 

[Ian Skippy]

As much as I'd like the game to take a slower pace, I'm sure this isn't going to happen and I sincerely hope so. FD just added telepresence because they figured casual players would be put off by having to fly their ship to a certain location and not use it as a result - what makes you think they'll ever add anything that slows anything down?

In the case of 2.3 I don't have a strong opinion. I can perfectly understand people won't coordinate and fly around for 20 minutes just to be play a third person rail-shooter or fly a fighter for a few minutes. I wouldn't do it myself, but don't care because it won't affect my gameplay at all.

The best I can hope for with walking around is FD keeping it purely optional just as crews. In the case of walking to take a mission, I'd be opposed because it doesn't add any gameplay. E.g. I'd be all for real-time ship repairs because although it wouldn't add gameplay, it would enable interesting decisions and thus could add depth to multiple ship ownership.

Can't see either for walking around.

(On a side note if you want to reach the coffee machine, get a Vive, however reaching it isn't all that spectacular )

Exactly. Thats why I want to be able to walk all over the place for literally no good reason whatsoever, while people not-like-me can just skip that part. As long as there is no serious gameplay consequence, I dont care if other players do things faster.

- - - Updated - - -

I do think frontier has shot themselves in the currently-nonexistent foot by having space legs come so late in the development plan. There's a lot of stuff that will need to be redesigned once it's added in. Even core stuff, like how cargo is loaded / unloaded. It would look odd to stand in the cargo bay, and have an entire hold worth of cargo just suddenly appear. Continuing to have a mission board, instead of walking to the individual contracts and talking to them is a missed opportunity. Stuff like that would dramatically change the time scale of individual missions. One play season may only be enough time for one or two missions if things moved at a realistic first-person scale. The payouts and effects of missions would need major rebalancing.

I think you miscalculate the work involved. Its not as if they had much of a choice:

"Right guys, what shall we do the coming few weeks? Passenger missions or spacelegs?"

S3 has always been the minimum, with expectations being generally between 3-6. That means you either have everything else on pause, or you just go with what you have now. Who knows if there still is such a thing as internet in three years...

 

[Gody]

Sorry guys but I really don't understand why people want space legs... Elite is a space simulation game, not a FPS. If people want to shoot thing, just play your favorite FPS or wait Star Citizen...

And I dont understand why everytime we talk about space legs someone comes with that wierd -Elite is a space simulation game, not a FPS if you want to shoot, go play COD-
As you said, Elite is space sim and you're a pilot, not a ship, so you should by able to do as many things as possible. Nobody is talking about FPS and "shooting things"
All I want is to be able to walk on my ship, see my crew of hundreds of ppl taking care and live on the ship, go to a bar on a station, see ppl filling my ships cargo bay, EVA repair my ship etc. I dont even want a gun. SO pls STOP saying space legs = FPS. Im really tired of that nonsense.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Excuse me a moment: isn't ED done with the Cobra engine which is also used for Planet Coaster? I haven't played Planet Coaster (for obvious reasons) but if they're able to animate rollercoasters on tracks, I would assume the engine would be able to do an FPS. And there must be people in Planet Coaster? So, the engine should be already able to display a more or less dynamic view of people riding those rollercoasters, no? So, Frontier might not have to build a new FPS in ED... I'm not saying it won't be some serious work but it seems to me they're not starting from scratch...

 

[horizone]

The original landing bays have a big garage door and small person sized doors accessible from the Pad in hangar. The new landing bays don't. I see it as a [bad] sign there won't ever be seamless walk from inside to outside of ship and onwards into station interiors. I will just be fade out to main plaza or something. I'm kindof dissappointed that when launching SRV while docked I fade from ship to top of SRV elevator. I want to ride that elevator up inside my SRV. Yeah, yeah it would be boring after the umptenth time but so is jumping between systems and we accept it.

 

[xondk]

Are we running before we can walk?

NOT being able to walk, and building the game up without this feature is making less and less sense and creating weirder work-arounds, such as tele-presence.

It seems to be really inefficient, how much of the game will have to be re-made once we can walk?

I'm starting to suspect we may never get to walk outside our ships.

For example where is the door in your SRV? Edit: seems it opens like a bubble car, ace thanks peops.

Walking around can give a lot of potential issues, seems wiser to make the framework first get the MAIN part of the game, which is the ships going and working before walking around and first person gets going?

No need to walk round ships cos tele-presence.

plenty of need to walk around, first person is coming at some point, which opens up more gameplay potential.

 

[Martian Successor]

What a strange thread. We always knew space legs was going to be some time off. It will come when it comes, and presumably, walk around ships, get off ships, visit space bars (perhaps). Other mechanics don't interfere with that in any way.

Sure, you might be able to walk to your fighter bay or SRV bay and get in at that point... but i can pretty much guarantee, you'll do it once,

Speak for yourself. I'd gladly walk through my ships' corridors, I'm doing something interactive. Beats 90% of the game being passively staring at loading screens and supercruise.

and then every time afterwards you will take the quick option via the menu to get there.

That right there proves the OP's point Agony. Because we have no legs yet (even though walking around is a planned feature), we got telepresence instead - which is silly development priorities any way you look at it. Because the game is now progressively being built around telepresence it now gives players the excuse to be lazy in both imagination and having to control their CMDR in simple, not even tedius ways. This in turn gives the developers the excuse to be slow and lazy with the implementation and imagination of walking around.

FD have said, no space legs until there is something to do with space legs, so you can be sure there will be reasons to get out of our ships on legs... although as with SRVs, it might be a bit contrived.

I'm looking at the "fidelity" and "immersion" that Star Citizen is planning/doing with theirs, and i bet sooner or later, the complaints will start, people will be asking for fast travel between the cockpit and the exit. Have you seen how long it takes to do that trip in some of the big ships? Not sure they CIG will allow that though, not sure it would work in their game allowing it.

Very doubtful that their players will start whining because they don't have fast travel into ships. Star Citizen was, is and will always be built on the fact that you control a character who can fly ships, drive things, walk around and manipulate the world manually with their own two hands. Their ships and stations are designed with this very principle in mind, which is more than I can say for Elite Dangerous whose developers seem to make up the rules as they go along.

Regardless, its not like FD are going to whip up space legs overnight just because some people think it needs to be priotized. Its going to be a lot of work, and its fairly certain that they are already working on stuff for the next several patches ahead. Would be crazy to put all that work on hold and start space legs causing further delays to new content.... unless, they are being sneaky, and what Braben said was a false flag, and they really are working on space legs already.

Anyway, time will tell. No point getting all wibbly wobbly over it.

It's all about the order in which content is inserted and the pacing of that order. Much like building a house, you lay the foundation first and build up from that. More than once now Frontier have inserted content without first inserting the foundation, the skeleton that holds up the solid framework ensuring there is valid new gameplay being supported.

I'll give you two such examples of this bizzarre method of putting the cart before the horse:
1) Inserting a crafting mechanic based on the principle of commodity storage before you create commodity storage.

2) Locking ships behind a naval career without first adding an actual naval crareer, just a bland progress bar grind that has no meaning which subsequently makes military titles mean nothing.

And there's plenty of other content that follows this strange reverse methodology to game design. It shows either inexperience or ineptitude from the developers to continually do this.

 

[davedf]

I am sure we will get first person mechanics for specific situations:

EVA + salvaging from wrecks

Exploring planets + entering structures on planets + salvaging

Inside your ship for repairs

Inside stations

I don't think the game will change to being entirely focussed on your avatar in the way that is planned with SC.

There will be a cut scene when you leave the ship for EVA for example - the same as happens when deploying the SRV at the moment.

You can see the EVA ports on some ships, like the Anaconda.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Speak for yourself. I'd gladly walk through my ships' corridors, I'm doing something interactive. Beats 90% of the game being passively staring at loading screens and supercruise.


That right there proves the OP's point Agony. Because we have no legs yet (even though walking around is a planned feature), we got telepresence instead - which is silly development priorities any way you look at it. Because the game is now progressively being built around telepresence it now gives players the excuse to be lazy in both imagination and having to control their CMDR in simple, not even tedius ways. This in turn gives the developers the excuse to be slow and lazy with the implementation and imagination of walking around.


Very doubtful that their players will start whining because they don't have fast travel into ships. Star Citizen was, is and will always be built on the fact that you control a character who can fly ships, drive things, walk around and manipulate the world manually with their own two hands. Their ships and stations are designed with this very principle in mind, which is more than I can say for Elite Dangerous whose developers seem to make up the rules as they go along.


It's all about the order in which content is inserted and the pacing of that order. Much like building a house, you lay the foundation first and build up from that. More than once now Frontier have inserted content without first inserting the foundation, the skeleton that holds up the solid framework ensuring there is valid new gameplay being supported.

I'll give you two such examples of this bizzarre method of putting the cart before the horse:
1) Inserting a crafting mechanic based on the principle of commodity storage before you create commodity storage.

2) Locking ships behind a naval career without first adding an actual naval crareer, just a bland progress bar grind that has no meaning which subsequently makes military titles mean nothing.

And there's plenty of other content that follows this strange reverse methodology to game design. It shows either inexperience or ineptitude from the developers to continually do this.

So very bluntly true, these two examples are the prime thing about Elite that i don't like...


Plus i cant believe that we only have a bunch of few missions for taking, yeah they can be hard to code... but i i remember well many missions we're scraped since they dont work with the current "build" of the game... which only means that the game is not so solid as we think of
(examples?)

Multi ferry missions (yeah not many people did those , but they we're fun to actually make them)
Second mission when you finish one (scraped and nothing else stays there)
The missions where you need to hold some cargo for someone ( puf!)
secret mission that you need to get morew instructions on a guy in X system( puf!)

All in favor to the new mode of missions (the comms tab)

Why not keep these missions in game ? yeah they dont match the current way missions are layed out... but they could stay in game there was nothing wrong with those missions...

Also just remembered, those guys offering you to change sides.. where are them?
The bounty hunter guy.. sent after you if you declined some important mission...

yeah see where i'm going?

 

[Lianachan]

I'm still not convinced I see much point in being able to walk around. Would be cool, undoubtedly, but is that reason enough?