Out of curiousity, and since you know these things ... am I out to get rid of all PvPers?
Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE
- Thread starter ranje
- Start date
Out of curiousity, and since you know these things ... am I out to get rid of all PvPers?
Personally I just think people enjoy forum PvP.
It's all down to pilot skill and there's no rebuy
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It's all down to pilot skill and there's no rebuy
.... and there are consequences for particular PvP behaviours too....
Before anybody tries to tell me that they indeed do play in Open for any significant length of time they're going to have to friend me and prove it by showing up on the gal map. Of course, hardly anybody remains on my friends list who either hasn't destroyed me or been destroyed by me with just a couple noteable examples.
Just because someone doesnt do your bidding doesnt give you any rights.
Some person on the street refuses to give you the soda they are drinking.
Real world acceptable behavior- beg their pardon and walk on to find someone nicer Elite Dangerous behavior- shoot that person in the face take the drink pour it on the ground and leave their wallet alone.
Now which of those scenarios will you get you a criminal record. Better yet which of those scenarios would you rather be on the receiving end?
Thats just an extreme example of something in the real world however you are asking people take those types of RL situations and treat them differently just for the game. The fact that there are many thousands if not millions of Pirates if you take NPCs into account in ED is enough RPing that everyone is forced to accept. Accepting violence as a form of currency is not something anyone will to stand for.
Just because you are RPing anything doesnt mean anyone has to do your bidding. It will be your choice to shoot that person if they refuse you. If you were really truly RPing the situation, then their refusal would not stop you even if it meant consequences.
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"Think" and "know" are two different things, Ziggy, and I used the word "think." But with that said, you've made your feelings concerning the matter pretty clear.
I'm PG only and am arguing to have the karma system affect me as well.
And if the argumentation is a strawman, he'll have no problem rebutting it.
Ok, do you think etc etc etc?
Because "you made your feelings etc etc" is dodging the question.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
You didn't mention any significant length of time - you used definitives - use of which is rarely accurate.
.... and Frontier have all the stats - they know who plays in which mode - and can draw their stats from that.
.... and no, I'm not going to friend you - that would tell you my location.
Exactly! we already have a working karma system (thank you mods!), which means that the forums really are a better PvP environment than the game. Sandro should look at forum pvp from an abstract point of view, and see what concepts might apply to ED.
He has continually and unendingly catered to the PVP community since launch. Almost every single seasonal update has had player combat as its primary and sometimes sole focus.
I dont think the group you think he is catering to is really the recipient of all this attention. Its just finally become a large enough problem that its being considered heavily now.
Sandro has always been a proponent of Open PVP and will continue to do so. However he is seeing that putting a bunch of people in a meat grinder might not be the best way to promote and maintain the image of the game he loves so much.
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The key point is really to the Karma system suggestion is the term 'massively owerpowered'.
My guess is that no medium or large ship kills will give negative karma, exept for station ramis.
FD will not introduce a system where you get an advantage by dropping the shields on your Conda.
This will not be adequate for for many players, that want just coop gameplay.
For players currently play in PG all the time, the Karma system will have no effect and they will not switch to open because of it.
Many PG only players still have a strong opinions about the karma system. I can see why JB may interpret that as strawman argumentation.
Personally I just think people enjoy forum PvP.
The karma system would have no ship limitations. The server already has the information. It knows that one ship/player is constantly attacking and or interaction in combat with other players. If you have a person who trades almost exclusively, then the system has the numbers to make the decision. Its not as cut and dry as ship size and type.
Right, but if the victim shoots at the pirate, that should work out because the pirate will already have a bounty on them (if nothing else, from the interdiction). What I'm aiming for is a way for people who don't want pvp to have a chance to avoid it (losing some cargo is not losing a ship, and piracy is a legitimate part of the game), and for random acts of violence to come with a price.
You didn't mention any significant length of time - you used definitives - use of which is rarely accurate.
.... and Frontier have all the stats - they know who plays in which mode - and can draw their stats from that.
.... and no, I'm not going to friend you - that would tell you my location.
Well, that's probably wise, Robert. That is why I framed the offer the way I did, after all. Fair warning and all that. But why can i not qualify with the word significant? Just because a player peeks into Open to run the mission board, or spent a couple days in Open when they were first starting out but then were soured due to player hostility and went to Mobius thereafter still makes my point; non-Open players pushing an agenda that they don't and never will take any significant part in. In contrast my own point is crystal clear, as is my agenda. No one has any doubts about how I play, where I play, or what my ultimate goals are.
then why would anyone friend you. You would have to prove the same thing to everyone else. That argument is moot and cannot be reconciled in any fashion.
Lovely little sidenote. There have been arguments to disband Solo and Private Groups. Explicitly.
So having an opinion voicing that on a discussion board is pushing an agenda eh?
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Its very hard to understand where you are coming from. You seem to be arguing each side of the debate as if in defense of each side.
I dont mind that, but what is it you are getting at?
Yes griefing sucks and a Karma system would go a long way in tracking that information.
Yes everyone will be subject to it.
Yes PVP will still be viable and Piracy can and will still happen.
The deterent would be as simple as the bad hit to the Karma system and depending on how many bad dings the person has, the C&P system would dole out said consequence. All the way from increased rebuys, loss of access to stations in secured space, to the in game equivalent of incarceration, the loss of any ship that you used to commit said crimes. Most importantly the ability to reverse direction and get yourself back in to good karmic standing if you choose to do so.
No getting into sidewinders and blowing yourself up, because crimes would be tied to ships and pilots. As well that the Karma system would not reset if you die. It will still track data.
If this thread really is going to stay on the front page forever, perhaps a mod could change the title to something that isn't so teeth-grindingly irritating.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Oh, you can qualify - but it significantly changes the impact of what you implied, i.e. that some players never played (nor will ever play) in Open.
.... and if players don't play in Open then that'll be for one or more reasons - if Open improves then more may play in it - that seems to be Frontier's aim after all. Open "belongs" to all players, after all.
Hmm. OK, I can see why you may have a hard time seeing what side of the argument I'm in. Let me explain myself. Basically, I see pvp as an integral and valid part of the game, that because of weak game design is being abused by a small group of antisocial individuals. To fix that, the game must give players who want to avoid combat a chance to do so, while still allowing combat to proceed with no penalties if all parties involved agree to it (eg a trader decides that he's going to take his chances even after he's been warned to hand over cargo). If someone wants to kick the beehive they should be allowed to, but suffer the consequences.
Edit: And I completely agree that the suicidey is complete . It's part of the game's lore that PF pilots escape ship destruction unscathed, so why would having your ship shot out from under you clear your legal record? it makes no sense. There should be some way to clear your legal status, but it should be both difficult and time consuming. Maybe fines should be paid in materials instead of credits? trespassing fine: 20 iron; destruction of a fellow PF member's weaker ship: 50 arsenic.
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Simple solution:
1) create a PVP heat map on the galaxy. PVPers can head there, and non-PVPers can avoid it if they choose.
2) when a notorious player with HIGHLY NEGATIVE KARMA is scanned in a LAWFUL SYSTEM, their location is revealed on the Galaxy Map, kind of like a CG, but the marker only lasts for 10 minutes or so, and updates with each new scan. Only the top 10 most wanted CMDRs in the galaxy (that are currently online) will have their location revealed. The 10 most villainous (online) CMDRs can avoid this consequence by sticking to anarchy systems.
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I like that, however for it to work the suicidey trick needs to go away. The pvp map of the galaxy won't work because the "problem players" will head to where everyone else is - see for example the many accounts of people trying to solve the alien ruin puzzles being strafed in their SRVs.