General / Off-Topic London Flats Fire

My timeline is off then. Lol
(Nothing new for me!)

I think the main brunt of the blame needs to be aimed at whoever signed off on the cladding used in the flat(s). (If that is determined to be the sole cause of the fire spreading so quickly)
Installing additional safety measures like sprinklers would have been extremely costly and incredibly disrupting for the residents (who at the time would likely have complained about the inconvenience of extensive works going on!).

Even without sprinklers, the fire should have stayed contained in the flat for an hour. Plenty of time to calmly evacuate several hundred residents.
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
My timeline is off then. Lol
(Nothing new for me!)

I think the main brunt of the blame needs to be aimed at whoever signed off on the cladding used in the flat(s). (If that is determined to be the sole cause of the fire spreading so quickly)
Installing additional safety measures like sprinklers would have been extremely costly and incredibly disrupting for the residents (who at the time would likely have complained about the inconvenience of extensive works going on!).

Even without sprinklers, the fire should have stayed contained in the flat for an hour. Plenty of time to calmly evacuate several hundred residents.

See my post above - first we need to check why the decision was made to use the lower cost cladding, and whether the higher cost cladding would have prevented the incident. The fire accident investigators will work this out. You may well be right, but it's often wise to determine the facts. It could also be that the more expensive cladding only offered a marginal additional protection which wouldn't have been useful in this case. Before blaming that one thing we should check into all the facts.
 
I really not wanted to seemingly gloat in a case like this so i waited for a while out of decency, and i will be as brief as i can.

At first this is a real tragedy.

And yes! This is what you get if you don't heed the warnings, the wise words ignore them, if you don't care about the signs, and don't make the necessary repairs.
(the cracks just getting worse until the whole building collapses)

...
..
.
 
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Javert

Volunteer Moderator
Just to add additional info, the Chancellor Phillip Hammond is being quoted by the BBC from this morning as saying that the cladding used is in fact already banned in the UK.

I didn't see the interview so I don't know whether he is saying it has been banned in the time since it was installed in that tower, or whether he is implying that banned materials were used. I'm sure this will be revealed later.
 
In memory of all who lost their lives, should the block be re-built? I think it leaves a bad taste to exist as it was. There should not only be Sprinklers but a safe zone at the roof for people to be rescue lifted from. How could this have been overlooked if people can not go down then the only way is up.
 

Minonian

Banned
This fire is a disgrace on the person who signed off the building regs refurb. It's not Political at all. If anything by judging from the people it affected on alternative News interviews, it looks like arson = "the criminal act of deliberately setting fire to property". Either by the so-called rich OR by racial hate. The lack of real fire protection in a high-rise block is suspect when all it takes is either Sprinklers OR auto Extinguishing foam. This is a no brainer! Now if the block is re-built and the same families are put back but with added Fire Precautions other than manual Extinguishers then you can rule out the rich people instigation.
I don't think it can be rebuilt, and i'm sure even if it can, is an irresponsible decision. Such fire can do a lot of structural damage and a lot of it remains hidden.
Do the survey, assess the damage record the crime scene, than demolish it for good.

And it's not a historical building to waste 10 times more to restoration than a demolition and erection of another building costs.
 
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This story has been circulated for so long that it has become accepted truth. However, it was actually the 2008 crash which mainly triggered the need for austerity - if the economic forecasts before that crash had been borne out, there wouldn't be nearly such an issue today. Arguably they were spending beyond their means (and so are the Conservatives by the way), but the impact of the 2008 crash was much much bigger. Saying that the current austerity is only caused by Labour spending too much money is not true.

That said, I think Labour are guilty of playing politics by failing to do anything about it in the 2 years running up to the 2010 election, because they didn't want to destroy their election chances by starting austerity before that. If Labour had won the 2010 election, we would've also had austerity nearly the same as what the Conservatives have done. In addition, I have little doubt (sadly) that the Conservatives would've done the same thing between 2008 and 2010 if the situation was reversed.

As regards the bailing out of the banks, I know there is still a body of opinion that this should not have been done and the banks should have been left to fail and suchlike. The counter argument is that this would've caused the entire world economy to collapse and things would be even worse today than they already are. I don't consider myself expert enough technically to judge on that, but I certainly can empathise with the feeling that giving billions of pounds to banks to prop them up after their poor decision making doesn't look good to those who don't have much money.

I'd also like to make a factual correction. There is no section D notice in force on the Grenfell tower story. A section D notice was issued for the Manchester bombing, because there was a criminal investigation affecting national security in process, and printing certain information would have compromised that investigation. This is why the UK was so angry when some of that information was made public in the US.

Section D notices are for matters of national security involving criminal activity and suchlike - a section D notice would never be issued in a situation like this tower fire, and if it was I have every confidence that it would be quickly struck down by the judiciary.

More likely, it's a combination of incompetence and the process that we have in this country. The convention is that a person cannot be considered as dead until a coroner has declared them as dead. In this case, we don't know how many people were in the tower, we don't know how many escaped, and in some cases it's likely that the fire was so severe that only ash remains, or you cannot tell for sure how many bodies are in the room.

The process in the UK (rightly or wrongly) is based on two assumptions:
- It's better to reveal no information than to release information that might turn out wrong later.
- It's better to reveal no information if revealing it could cause additional distress to families of victims, or on the other hand give them false hope.

As I remember, it took a very long time for the death toll from 9/11 to be confirmed, and even now today, they are not sure that the death toll is correct.

One other comment regarding the use of cheaper cladding materials - we don't actually have the technical specifications for these materials. Although it seems bad that they chose a cheaper material with only a marginally lower cost, we need to wait for the conclusion of the accident investigation. The statements I've read was that the more expensive material was "less flammable" rather than completely fire proof. As such, the investigators may end up concluding that the fire would still have spread in the same way even if the more expensive material had been fitted - we don't know that until the experts have investigated fully.
I have never said that the banks should not have been bailed out, most of them needed it and the result of not doing so would have been far worse. However: It would be nice if they paid the country back; like the rest of us would have to if we managed to get some kind of bail out.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
I have never said that the banks should not have been bailed out, most of them needed it and the result of not doing so would have been far worse. However: It would be nice if they paid the country back; like the rest of us would have to if we managed to get some kind of bail out.

I would have been a little happier if there was some form of retribution against the directors as well. Yes, we had to save them as letting retail banks fail is very bad indeed for all sorts of reasons, but there should have been financial penalties at the very least for the key decision makers.

As things stand RBOS is the last millstone. We made a tiny profit on Lloyds, but RBOS was so fundamentally mucked up it's still a disaster and subject to ongoing litigation.
 
A problem with a helipad on a tower block is that, should such a tower block catch on fire, it could unsafe for the helicopters to approach for at least two reasons I can thing of. The thermal up-draughts from the fire makes handling interesting (and the smoke may make for poor visibility), while the down-draughts from the rotor blades may well fan the flames.

I have just found an article on the web that says the cladding used on Grenfell Tower is banned in the USA, Europe, and UK (according to the Chancellor)!;

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...ncellor/ar-BBCP8M3?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp
 
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This from Boris Johnson sure hasn't aged well

DChtsdRXoAAO9Xr.jpg
 
Just to add additional info, the Chancellor Phillip Hammond is being quoted by the BBC from this morning as saying that the cladding used is in fact already banned in the UK.

I didn't see the interview so I don't know whether he is saying it has been banned in the time since it was installed in that tower, or whether he is implying that banned materials were used. I'm sure this will be revealed later.

The promoters are ready to all the frauds to win the money
 
In memory of all who lost their lives, should the block be re-built? I think it leaves a bad taste to exist as it was. There should not only be Sprinklers but a safe zone at the roof for people to be rescue lifted from. How could this have been overlooked if people can not go down then the only way is up.

A memorial like the World Trade Center would be a good solution
 
I am going to post this quote without comment, I think people can decide what they think of this themselves...
from the foot of this Guardian article ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ader-nick-paget-brown-grenfell-tower-response ):

Eve Allison, a Conservative councillor, said last year’s refurbishment of Grenfell Tower should have looked inside as well as outside the building.
She told BBC One’s Breakfast:”All too often we’re a little bit too concerned with how the immediate streetscape looks, how a building fits into other buildings, does it detract from the immediate streetscape.
“I was not involved with the actual planning of the recent refurbishment … [but] from what I’m hearing it would have been ideal if part of the refurbishment package had looked at actually trying to gentrify inside, not just outside.”



 
A problem with a helipad on a tower block is that, should such a tower block catch on fire, it could unsafe for the helicopters to approach for at least two reasons I can thing of. The thermal up-draughts from the fire makes handling interesting (and the smoke may make for poor visibility), while the down-draughts from the rotor blades may well fan the flames.

I have just found an article on the web that says the cladding used on Grenfell Tower is banned in the USA, Europe, and UK (according to the Chancellor)!;

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...ncellor/ar-BBCP8M3?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp
This is the issue with political double talk. He is basically saying 'lets us wait to hear the results of another inquiry, before we spend money on retrofitting sprinkler systems in old tower blocks.' However: There have been at least two inquiries, both with recommendations from the fire service, stating that sprinkler systems need fitting now and he is like pretending they haven't happened. It is another stalling tactic.
 
Sadly I have no doubt that the figure will be much higher.

A lot of immigrants were in this tower, some of them not here legally. There are fears that there may be people among the dead who the government have no records for. Some human rights lawyers are calling for an amnesty on any non-legal immigrant survivors or family members who might be able to account for some of the missing.
 
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