Spacefaring lifeforms, rare and random encounters...

I think it's very confident to the point of prideful folly, to believe we can rule things out in a universe we can barely see and so poorly understand. We still have elements missing from the periodic table, don't completely understand the human brain, can't perceive more than 3 dimensions (that is likely to be our big handicap compared to other possible alien lifeforms) and we think we can say what is possible in the entire universe? Come on. :)

I started to make a long post about the island of stability, human consciousness and the relevance of extra dimesions( not different 3d universes). But in the end in the context of elite it all boils down to how reasonable is your idea is with current sciencey speculations.

Ammonia based life is for instance higher in the plausibility ladder so the thargoids got that. The Alcubierre drive may be impossible, but it sounds plausible so our ships bend spacetime to break the lightspeed barrier. The amount of leeway of these things get is not always meeting any form of consensus, but Elite has quite a lot of grounding in reality even if a speculative one.

When you throw an argument of "we don't know, so it's possible" the problem is space magic quickly ensues.
 

Deleted member 115407

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...can't perceive more than 3 dimensions (that is likely to be our big handicap compared to other possible alien lifeforms) and we think we can say what is possible in the entire universe? Come on. :)

And on that note, a quote from one of my absolute favs...

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

-The Call of Cthulhu, H.P. Lovecraft
 
[...]

[...]but it sounds plausible[...]

If you go by that rule it only depends on who is thinking what might be plausible. For example:
Many Christians think it is plausible that someone will go to 'Hell' just because they are gay.
And if you want to throw in the argument of 'common sense' for the people in the example the stated opinion is based on their 'common sense' or at least what they think it to be.


When you throw an argument of "we don't know, so it's possible" the problem is space magic quickly ensues.

I'd rather go with: "It can be true unless it is proven to be untrue."

Also if no one would make science-fiction with 'space magic' scientific progress might be slowed down a bit since fiction is what 'makes us dream' and those dreams could inspire someone to develop a device that, lets say can treat many illnesses by using sound and light or something like that.

If we live in arrogance and say: "It does not coexist with our current knowledge so let us ignore it and dont even give it a chance maybe even make fun of it."
We act like like the vatican in 1400.


Who knows maybe there are a ammonia species in our universe that say: "It is absolute fact that complex live on water based worlds, with similar cognitive abilitys as ours are impossible to exist."


As for Elite: Dangerous I think for the fact that we are in the year 3303 humanity seems to be a bit underdeveloped also space whales in very dense nebula with a gas giant as possible source of origin seems plausible... at least to me.
 
If you go by that rule it only depends on who is thinking what might be plausible. For example:
Many Christians think it is plausible that someone will go to 'Hell' just because they are gay.
And if you want to throw in the argument of 'common sense' for the people in the example the stated opinion is based on their 'common sense' or at least what they think it to be.




I'd rather go with: "It can be true unless it is proven to be untrue."

Also if no one would make science-fiction with 'space magic' scientific progress might be slowed down a bit since fiction is what 'makes us dream' and those dreams could inspire someone to develop a device that, lets say can treat many illnesses by using sound and light or something like that.

If we live in arrogance and say: "It does not coexist with our current knowledge so let us ignore it and dont even give it a chance maybe even make fun of it."
We act like like the vatican in 1400.


Who knows maybe there are a ammonia species in our universe that say: "It is absolute fact that complex live on water based worlds, with similar cognitive abilitys as ours are impossible to exist."


As for Elite: Dangerous I think for the fact that we are in the year 3303 humanity seems to be a bit underdeveloped also space whales in very dense nebula with a gas giant as possible source of origin seems plausible... at least to me.

What I was saying is that there a certain degree of plausibility for each and every thing in the game. Every sci-fi idea will make more sense to some and less to others.

FD decides what makes enough sense and what doesn't - Braben called witch space the big lie, so for the game to be he had to use something he didn't believe possible. Without it there would be no Elite. Other ideas are not as crucial so they'll receive more scrutiny. FD made quite a lot of unrealistic things to enhance the game aspects, so everything is possible to a degree.

But don't get your hopes too high.
 
That would add one more reason to travel to the black to hunt space white whale, totally awesome idea. [alien][up][up][up]
 
I even just had a good idea how it could be implemented, we could use the existing USS instancing system. You're plodding along minding your own business in deep space (make a rule that these USSes don't occur within 5000ly of the bubble (more incentive to stay out there after satisfying prof Palin) because the lifeforms are shy) and have USS type 'biological signature detected', and when you pop in, bam! Random space whale.

I can't resist, here I go with another little story. Kinda how I imagine this is in the best possible implementation in the game. :)

I just clicked 5k ly from Lave, it had been a slow trip so far, I was contracted by an Alliance handler to find terraformable worlds, what are those Alliance guys up to, spreading out all over the place, best be careful they don't spread themselves too thin, especially after what happened at Ross 128...Still, a contract is a contract, so here I am.

At first I thought I was going space crazy, a signal contact, but different. I turned a little toward the source, the scanners started humming, then after a second or two; "Unknown Biological Signature". My first thought was Thargoids, and I felt my muscles tense around the stick, I wanted to turn back right now, but something tugged at me, I've seen Thargoids before, this was somehow different. I decided to take the risk, even with the exploration data on board, I dropped out of supercruise and looked around. Then I saw it.

Floating in space about 15k away was what I can only describe as an enormous space jellyfish, only it had a solid, shiny carapace, like a beetle, with whitish blue tentacles flowing beneath it's bulbous mass. I approached slowly, and as I reached about 10k away, it started moving. It was turning around. It was then I realised I was viewing it in profile, it turned toward my ship. Now I was looking at the round carapace straight on and couldn't see the tentacles. It was 'swimming' toward me. I wonder how it propels itself? As it approached, what I can only assume is a mouth began opening in the top center of the shell, I could see a mist being sucked in and out like breath, was it SMELLING me? It was still drawing closer, its 'mouth' pulsating. It didn't seem to be aggressive, so I held my ground. Show no fear.

It was now less than 1k away and filled my view. At a guess I'd say it was about the size of a Farragut, only wider because of the shell, I hadn't realised quite how big it was. At this point I started to regret my confidence, that mouth could easily swallow my DBX without touching the sides. I slowly applied some reverse thrust, but it moved closer still. Now I was starting to get really nervous. I flashed the ships lights on and off, it stopped, the carapace changed colour before my eyes, from the bluey brown it had been before to a deep purple, then suddenly a thousand illuminated 'spots' on the carapace all shone at once, it was blinding. Did this thing just flash me back? I decided to try the disco scanner, see what it would make of the honk, as the scanner charged, the illuminations immediately extinguished and the carapace turned grey brown again. BRRRRAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRP. The creature backed off just a little but very quickly, it had retreated half a k in less than a second, but was still filling my view, and still far too close for me to jump away. Then it started to visibly inflate, it was definitely getting bigger, and new colours were playing on the surface of its shell. Eventually the 'shell' had become a flat disc where before it had been convex like an umbrella. I could see more of whatever was under the shell, it looked like the fins you would see on the underside of a mushroom, the glow of the tentacles and my own trepidation prevented me making a meaningful analysis, then suddenly, the ship pitched up hard. I was spinning through space, something had propelled me away, with great power. I reset the stabilisers and turned back toward the creature.

My sensors were on the fritz, was that an attack? I'm about 15k away again now and it's coming towards me again, faster this time. It could have been a greeting I suppose, if so, I wouldn't want to see the thing when it's upset! It was coming closer again. Right, time to go, enough close encounters for now. I started charging the FSD. Again the creature reacted, now it was right in front of me again, it must have covered 10 clicks in 2 seconds, wow, that thing is fast. Obviously I couldn't jump again due to the mass lock. The creature started inflating again. I immediately turned around and started flying away, but the creature followed me, blocking my path, again, and still inflating. It was much faster than my little DBX, there was no way I was going to outrun it. As it reached peak inflation, I knew what to expect and braced myself, but nothing happened. Then suddenly it opened its mouth again and a jet of something like liquid was ejected into space as it once again deflated. Once it had finished its 'eruption', it turned bright yellow with flashes of green and illuminated it's spots again, just for an instant. It was turning away from me now, I had a feeling that it was saying goodbye, so I instinctively flashed the ship lights again. It flashed its spots again. I flashed again, it flashed its spots again, we were communicating! Then just like that, it disappeared. I can only assume it warped off somewhere, but there was no wake or evidence that anything had ever been here. I started thinking I was going space crazy again, that I would wake up any minute having fallen asleep at the controls of the SRV, but no, this really happened.

I turned the scanners to the liquid ejection, only it wasn't liquid any more it had now solidified and broken up into small crystals. The scanners were taking their time with the analysis, I was almost hoping I would be the discoverer of a new compound, but no such luck. It was however a rich alloy of various rare and (inappropriately named) rare 'earth' metals, the refinery can sort these out I thought as I collected them up, but that would have to wait til this contract was done. Hope all the space whales are this friendly.
 
Does anyone know the book "Between the Strokes of Night" by Charles Sheffield?

He is describing beings like Pipistrels and Kermel Objects devouring energy from ships in space. Brilliant book!
This book very much matches the Elite Dangerous story of the generation ships.

o7
 
What I was saying is that there a certain degree of plausibility for each and every thing in the game. Every sci-fi idea will make more sense to some and less to others.

FD decides what makes enough sense and what doesn't - Braben called witch space the big lie, so for the game to be he had to use something he didn't believe possible. Without it there would be no Elite. Other ideas are not as crucial so they'll receive more scrutiny. FD made quite a lot of unrealistic things to enhance the game aspects, so everything is possible to a degree.

But don't get your hopes too high.

Thank you for pointing out what you were saying/(writing).
 
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Let's not forget the Fen from Babylon 5: Crusade - as long as they don't mistake your engine outputs and try to mate with your ship...:)
 
I hear you, Ouberos. That being said, as much as I respect the lore of this game, the playing field is just too damn big and has too much potential for there not to be other things out there. I mean that from a "player interest" perspective. Basically what I mean is - to hell with the lore, I want to see fantastic stuff out there. Other civs, space whales, asteroid worms, whatever.

What makes Star Wars and Star Trek and every other space sci-fi thing out there so great is the fantastical wonderfulness of the galaxies wherein they take place.

On the other hand, in Elite, when I stare into the black, I think "Yep, there's 400 Billion star systems that are all dead and pretty much the same."

Science is boring. That's why we have science fiction :)

I would'nt argue that Science is boring. I personally love science as a general interest in my life and i couldnt imagine life without it. Learning new things about how the universe works is wonderful to me.
But i also love Science fiction and i would argue that the difference between good science fiction and bad science fiction is dependant on the Good or bad science in it. If the science becomes to silly and psuedo then we slide from Science fiction into fantacy.

Elite has always been sympathetic towards scientific reality (with the obligatory tweeks into fantacy to allow things to move forward), but i feel its important for Elite to remain a Science Fiction world not leaning to far into fantacy where it becomes a silly space filled with contrived spectacles.

--

But i do agree in principle that the galaxy needs colour. There are plenty of science/fiction elements that could be added to the game that dont cross the line stated above.
 

Deleted member 115407

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Elite has always been sympathetic towards scientific reality...

That is a better way to put it. When I said "science is boring", I don't literally mean it. What I mean is that basing the entire galaxy off of basic scientific laws makes it a really boring galaxy gameplay-wise. Everything is the same... there is nothing to wonder at except for vast distances.

Having a galaxy filled with ammonia based single celled organisms might be really scientifically realistic, but it's terribly boring from a gameplay and storytelling perspective. Nobody (or almost nobody) pays $15 for a movie ticket to just go see pictures of space rocks for two hours. I'm not saying Elite Dangerous needs to be all Luc Besson, Fifth Element or anything, but as it stands now...

Look, it's like mining. I've said this before. It may not be scientifically realistic to have precious gems out there in the rings - but man would it be cool from a gameplay perspective. Jumping into a system and getting an "organic anomaly detected" message from Siri, only to drop in and find a space whale or something... which may not be very scientific, but would be cool from a gameplay perspective.

I'm rambling, but you get the point.
 
That is a better way to put it. When I said "science is boring", I don't literally mean it. What I mean is that basing the entire galaxy off of basic scientific laws makes it a really boring galaxy gameplay-wise. Everything is the same... there is nothing to wonder at except for vast distances.

Having a galaxy filled with ammonia based single celled organisms might be really scientifically realistic, but it's terribly boring from a gameplay and storytelling perspective. Nobody (or almost nobody) pays $15 for a movie ticket to just go see pictures of space rocks for two hours. I'm not saying Elite Dangerous needs to be all Luc Besson, Fifth Element or anything, but as it stands now...

Look, it's like mining. I've said this before. It may not be scientifically realistic to have precious gems out there in the rings - but man would it be cool from a gameplay perspective. Jumping into a system and getting an "organic anomaly detected" message from Siri, only to drop in and find a space whale or something... which may not be very scientific, but would be cool from a gameplay perspective.

I'm rambling, but you get the point.

I'd love to see space whales, but this would require a rocket big enough to launch your, sorry, let me try again...
I'd love to see space whales, but I'd also like to see a pseudo scientific explanation for them. The biggest problem seems to be: How do they move?
 
I'd love to see space whales, but this would require a rocket big enough to launch your, sorry, let me try again...
I'd love to see space whales, but I'd also like to see a pseudo scientific explanation for them. The biggest problem seems to be: How do they move?

How they move would not be the problem but how they endend up/evolved into living in deep space space would be a interesting thing to explain.
They could use some special organ to create energy with which they manipulate the space, subspace or whatever dimension you like the most to move.
Maybe they could even be creatures living in Witch Space that from time to time 'phase out of' for exit Witch Space or some reason... maybe to poop.
 
...but I'd also like to see a pseudo scientific explanation for them. ...

Indeed.

... The biggest problem seems to be: How do they move?

Not quite.

The biggest problem would be: How did they evolve so far that the question of movement even has to be considered ...? ;)

In space, there is simply no possibility to initiate life.
Even if not carbon based, you would need some molecules to meet and match. Therefore you'll need a solvent. There is no solvent in the cold vacuum.

Well, then why not let them form on a planet and then let them "somehow" immigrant into the void?
Unfortunately, such a species would have adopted to the conditions of their planet. Evolution can take us so and so far. But it has to work with what is based on the passed. There is still a fish in us (our bone structures, for example). Even single cell organisms (certain enzymes haven't changed much since their very first days - incidentally enzymes that enable us to deal with oxygen, which is highly toxic for organisms if not properly dealt with).
One simply can't take a creature that has evolved on a planet and make it space-dwelling. (Only a tiny part of it is indeed locomotion. How to leave the gravity sink in the first place? I want to see the bird that is able to reach hyperbolic excess velocity ...)

Okay, not planet-born then. What about species composed out of pure energy? We see it in science fantasy all the time, so ...
Unfortunately, energy has the nasty tendency to disperse. Ask the physicists who try to keep those fusion plasmas in check. Or laser engineers who try to keep the focus of a laser beam.
One of the major attributes of life is the separation of 'inner' and 'outer'. Cell membranes were the first thing "invented" to make life possible at all. What physical, spontaneous process do you guys know that assures this regarding pure energy? (Magnetism, I hear? Again, tell it those fusion researchers; they might be interested to learn about it.)

Speaking of cell membranes and solving agents.
There are theoretical possibilities that life might be able to form in different solutions than water. H2S, for example.
The thing is, water is almost a magic molecule. My chemistry professor had an encyclopedia of 1 1/2 meter just about this "element".
The main reason for its properties lies in its high dipole momentum. Life, if not in vacuum then somewhere else, might be possible without water - theoretically.
But as water is such a common feature in the galaxy, it's much, much less likely.
Oh ... and liquid water and vacuum doesn't match well ...

Then there is the issue of energy turnover, which is another basic characteristic of life. Where to get this energy from?
Photosynthesis? Maybe. But you'll need something to deoxidize in order to store all the gathered energy. maybe water again? Oh, I forgot... vacuum!
Regarding "dense" space nebulae to feed on ... well, yes, they look impressive and dense from a distance. And oh my, distances we have, in space!
From closer within, things change a bit. Those "dense" nebulae feature approximately one atom per cubic meter. Which makes it harder to breath than on the top of the Mount Everest, but is still way more than in other regions of space.

I could go on and on and on.
Sorry for the long, meaningless post. You guys know all this already, of course.
It's just hot outside and I can not play ED in my Rift and I am bored.

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TLDR:

Scientifically, living space creatures are utter nonsense. Doesn't matter, how big space is. Sorry. :(

But as I mentioned already in a post above: As a player and science fiction/fantasy reader, I still would love to see those creatures in Elite Dangerous!

And I don't care, if they are space dragons propelled by rainbow farts ... :D
 
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TLDR:

Scientifically, living space creatures are utter nonsense. Doesn't matter, how big space is. Sorry. :(
Which is why I said I'd like to see a pseudo scientific explanation.

But as I mentioned already in a post above: As a player and science fiction/fantasy reader, I still would love to see those creatures in Elite Dangerous!

And I don't care, if they are space dragons propelled by rainbow farts ... :D

Well I actually do care about that, I like science-fiction and dragons propelled by rainbow farts somehow miss the science part. ;)
 
How they move would not be the problem but how they endend up/evolved into living in deep space space would be a interesting thing to explain.
They could use some special organ to create energy with which they manipulate the space, subspace or whatever dimension you like the most to move.
Maybe they could even be creatures living in Witch Space that from time to time 'phase out of' for exit Witch Space or some reason... maybe to poop.

I think both problems are interesting, however I believe how they move requires even more fiction than how they ended there. This one is pretty easy, they try to colonise new worlds.
 
How they move would not be the problem but how they endend up/evolved into living in deep space space would be a interesting thing to explain.
They could use some special organ to create energy with which they manipulate the space, subspace or whatever dimension you like the most to move.
Maybe they could even be creatures living in Witch Space that from time to time 'phase out of' for exit Witch Space or some reason... maybe to poop.

I would imagine an eco system in a gas giant. everything floats or flies, all morphology evolved around being afloat in a world which is just sky.
As the eco system diversified with adaptive radiation we see creatures in the lower depths of the planets atmosphere (maybe swimming in liquid gas under extreme pressures) up to the highest and most rarefied extremes touching maybe the edge of space itself.

The extreme enviroment of a gas giant is bathed in deadly radiation, heat, cold, rapid pressures variations and winds. The creatures of this world are extremophiles.
Eventually over time and evolution these creatures leave the world like flying fish leave the sea here on earth and propel themselves upward and outward. I would imagine them filling their bodies with gases from their parent planet using flatulation and out gasing to move through the vacuum of space, eventually finding feeding grounds in the orbiting debri fields of the gas giants ring system.

But i would not imagine these creatures going far from their home world though and certainly not interstellar.
 
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I would imagine an eco system in a gas giant. everything floats or flies, all morphology evolved around being afloat in a world which is just sky.
Something like this (from Science Magazine), life in cool brown dwarfs atmospheres appears to be possible..
ep_SciSource_SB2454_16x9.jpg

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/12/alien-life-could-thrive-clouds-failed-stars

Such thing can be modeled using fractals, very simple and very fast... :)
 
Something like this (from Science Magazine), life in cool brown dwarfs atmospheres appears to be possible..
http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/def...ge/public/images/ep_SciSource_SB2454_16x9.jpg
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/12/alien-life-could-thrive-clouds-failed-stars

Such thing can be modeled using fractals, very simple and very fast... :)

Yeh exactly..

Given time and adaptive radiation in this extreme and unique enviroment couldnt at least one species evolve upwards?
Could they sustain buoyancy at the most rarefied edges of the atmosphere?
How much energy would be needed to reach escape velicity from the huge gas giants gravity well and achieve orbital flight?

Their biology and chemistry would need to be very different to life on Earth, but then they would be given their origin.
 
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I would imagine an eco system in a gas giant. everything floats or flies, all morphology evolved around being afloat in a world which is just sky.
As the eco system diversified with adaptive radiation we see creatures in the lower depths of the planets atmosphere (maybe swimming in liquid gas under extreme pressures) up to the highest and most rarefied extremes touching maybe the edge of space itself.

The extreme enviroment of a gas giant is bathed in deadly radiation, heat, cold, rapid pressures variations and winds. The creatures of this world are extremophiles.
Eventually over time and evolution these creatures leave the world like flying fish leave the sea here on earth and propel themselves upward and outward. I would imagine them filling their bodies with gases from their parent planet using flatulation and out gasing to move through the vacuum of space, eventually finding feeding grounds in the orbiting debri fields of the gas giants ring system.

But i would not imagine these creatures going far from their home world though and certainly not interstellar.


Great theory for planet based space whales!

They could also use the magnetic field of the gas giant to move and navigate altough it would probably take them days or weeks to go from a gas giant to the asteroid ring.

Would be interesting to see how they interact with miners 'stealing' their food or with pirates who try to catch them for some space zoo, maybe they could defend themselves with a low yield EMP which messes with our ships systems, maybe they could 'shoot' some kind of acid clouds towards us.
 
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