Relative mouse ON on FA-OFF vs HOTAS

[Morbad]

In order to clear a few thinks resetting with relative mouse is like having faon while you are constantly faoff this means you don't have to correct all the time with opposite force your movement in order to stop your nose on the trg but the setting will do it to a degree itself given the fact that hit scans and rails need pin point accuracy especially for modules you get the rest

pvp in ED is fast if you can aim faster or use faoff to strafe your opponent at max speed then you are the winner

cmdr chris lane youtube video is an indication what k/m constant faoff can do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYTHxZIvlkM

tip: listen what he says in 2:22 about controls

no possible with a hotas and no resetting mechanism plus sensitivity for the upper echelon pvp the gap between hotas and k/m is huge

A big part of the advantage I see here is hitscan vs. projectile. Projectile weapons, even one with relatively high projectile velocity are going to miss anyone that can constantly alter their movement vector a fair period of time. You can do this FA On or Off, keyboard+mouse or HOTAS, though it's somewhat easier FA Off with a keyboard and FA On with a HOTAS that has analog thruster control, in my experience.

However, the velocity he's able to maintain is indeed impossible with FA On and Chris' FA OFF aim is much better than my own and relative mouse certainly helps with that.

As a comparison, I have a very similar Vulture loadout, but I'm a HOTAS user and primarily fight FA On: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc5OcGWLAm8

I'm a little shaky, especially at first, as this is my first real duel using an engineered Vulture, but there are some interesting similarities and differences.

Anyway, I'd be very interested to see what sort of time on target I can get with a large ship vs. a top-end FA off Vulture CMDR.

 

[Cheese Steak]

This is my main issue. The issue is that they want to nerf the mouse. They want to make the mouse less suitable than the joystick. Meanwhile, I purchased the game with the expectation that I could play it with my mouse, and have been for months. Saying "I'm a big fan of simulation games so I want my HOTAS to be better" is one thing, but saying "I want mouse to be worse so that people who don't have a HOTAS are then forced to drop $70 on equipment in order to continue playing the game they purchased" is ridiculous.

If you have a HOTAS on a PC, you already have a keyboard and mouse, making changing trivial. If you have a keyboard and mouse, you don't always have a HOTAS, meaning you must invest a considerable amount to leverage something that previously was free. Which sounds more fair?

 

[Aris_]

I dont post very Often, but you got my rep. here. I also have around 2500+ hours and beiing playing since day 1, and I fly Hotas, I mostly pvp/pirate and since the first week I keep saying that this m+k thing sucks.
I understand the need of allows everyone to play even with no joystick, but m+k users are so advantaged in faoff, always been like that, and should be the opposite.
I come from a sim life, falcon 4.0, IL2, FSX and DCS, and in any game never have been like ED, absolutely none can be advantaged with m+k for a reason, I understand the need of faoff, but there are external program that can give you a so precise shoot in faoff and fixed weapons that is insane.
I always refused to play a sim with m+k, and will be, I just find it not fair.
Now with this change on a easy hand is almost impossible to compete.
Happy to see Im not the only one here.

If i tell you this is half the story and some people go to the extent to create scripts for this mouse mode ability on the joystick , i would like to know why the decision made to favor one device against the primary simulator option which is the joystick if it is not the money sure is not immersion or the vision

 

[Guest104505]

[...] forced to drop $70 on equipment [...]

Oh! Maybe that is the reason. They spent money on it and are now unhappy that they didn't need to. The obvious "fix" to this is to make the unneeded equipment a requirement so everyone has to do the same mistake.

 

[Nicus]

Oh! Maybe that is the reason. They spent money on it and are now unhappy that they didn't need to. The obvious "fix" to this is to make the unneeded equipment a requirement so everyone has to do the same mistake.

Most comic argument i saw here... I played m+k for long time then i bought hotas mainly for immersion it gives after some time it also gave me advantage in FA on flying.
What OP and some people want to say here that FA Off is too easy with relative mouse. On HOTAS you need to apply "same force" you used to stop let's say rolling your ship, on mouse with relative option you don't have to so it's lot easier.
It's not about money but about balancing game on available controllers.

 

[mp4x]

That's a shame, if the topic is true. Though, escaping interdiction has always been measurably easier using KB+M.

Similarly, War Thunder is an excellent PvP game, especially if you're into VR and a bit of sim style combat. It suffers the same problem that you're talking about; KB+M players using an 'external view' are at a huge advantage over someone who plays HOTAS and sits in the cockpit. It has a 'sim combat' mode which forces everyone into the cockpit view, and HOTAS, but the whole mode is too difficult for the average player. The average player doesn't have a HOTAS, either, so there has to be some give.

It can be frustrating but it doesn't stop people playing. It doesn't 'kill' PvP or anything.

 

[Aris_]

A big part of the advantage I see here is hitscan vs. projectile. Projectile weapons, even one with relatively high projectile velocity are going to miss anyone that can constantly alter their movement vector a fair period of time. You can do this FA On or Off, keyboard+mouse or HOTAS, though it's somewhat easier FA Off with a keyboard and FA On with a HOTAS that has analog thruster control, in my experience.

However, the velocity he's able to maintain is indeed impossible with FA On and Chris' FA OFF aim is much better than my own and relative mouse certainly helps with that.

As a comparison, I have a very similar Vulture loadout, but I'm a HOTAS user and primarily fight FA On: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc5OcGWLAm8

I'm a little shaky, especially at first, as this is my first real duel using an engineered Vulture, but there are some interesting similarities and differences.

Anyway, I'd be very interested to see what sort of time on target I can get with a large ship vs. a top-end FA off Vulture CMDR.

Actually is the whole movement as you fine tune the joystick movement every full deflection no matter how good you are will always lead to a small oscillation before you stop on trg so you need faon and then your speed drops strafe is broken and you get hits.

With mouse you stop dead on no oscillation nothing point and shoot the only difficult is to get use to working with a mouse which everyone is due to windows nowadays and we have atmo planetary landings coming were we suppose to have better simulations and atmo plane physics and i ask how with this mess

 

[Morbad]

On a related tangent, I feel they need to add a relative thruster control to keyboard and other binary control inputs. It would be nice to get near analog precision on the vertical/lateral thrusters without having them bound to an axis by making the thrust relative to time the key is held (with a modifier key for instantaneous full thrust) or released, so thrusters could be pulsed more usefully. As it stands, to get full control out of the translation and rotation movements of the ship with no compromises, you need at least six analog axes and the cheapest control setup that offers this with any real accuracy is a 100+ dollar two piece part (the T.16000M FCS HOTAS). Having some more options for binary thruster input would help both FA On and Off users with fewer axes on hand get more complete control.

This is my main issue. The issue is that they want to nerf the mouse. They want to make the mouse less suitable than the joystick. Meanwhile, I purchased the game with the expectation that I could play it with my mouse, and have been for months. Saying "I'm a big fan of simulation games so I want my HOTAS to be better" is one thing, but saying "I want mouse to be worse so that people who don't have a HOTAS are then forced to drop $70 on equipment in order to continue playing the game they purchased" is ridiculous.

If you have a HOTAS on a PC, you already have a keyboard and mouse, making changing trivial. If you have a keyboard and mouse, you don't always have a HOTAS, meaning you must invest a considerable amount to leverage something that previously was free. Which sounds more fair?

IMO, the goal of any control options in a game should be to remove any barriers between the player's desired control input and what the craft sees.

The problem with Elite is that there are some arbitrary hurdles in place for flavor (planes in space). Ships interpret control input less ideally on purpose and FA on vs. FA off have to be balanced against each other as a result, when ideally, they'd be synergistic, with variable forms of assistance available on demand, without arbitrary handicaps that strongly favored one control scheme over another for different situations.

 

[Cheese Steak]

The problem with Elite is that there are some arbitrary hurdles in place for flavor (planes in space). Ships interpret control input less ideally on purpose and FA on vs. FA off have to be balanced against each other as a result, when ideally, they'd be synergistic, with variable forms of assistance available on demand, without arbitrary handicaps that strongly favored one control scheme over another for different situations.

But this is outside the purview of the designer's jobs. Some control schemes are always going to be more ideal than others at certain situations. See my FPS controller vs mouse analogy. It's just a fact of life that a mouse input will be more precise than an analog input in tasks related to aiming, and the only way to fix that is to incorporate some form of aim assist.

Point is that the developers shouldn't regress on features currently in the game. Don't nerf mouse to be less ideal because they made a smart and intuitive control scheme, find a way to make HOTAS better. Apparently Star Citizen has a dynamic sensitivity feature for targeting, maybe something like that could be implemented.

 

[Morbad]

Actually is the whole movement as you fine tune the joystick movement every full deflection no matter how good you are will always lead to a small oscillation before you stop on trg so you need faon and then your speed drops strafe is broken and you get hits.

There is always room for improvement.

On some of my less twitchy vessels that I have more practice with, I can minimize that oscillation you mention, nearly to the point of nonexistence, by maintaining tighter control over my relative velocity with vertical/lateral thrust. In the Viper and pre-buff FDL, much of my aiming was done with the thrusters themselves, out of necessity, because of their more modest rotational performance. I'm sure if I spent more time in the Vulture (the last time the Vulture was my primary ship, or even something I flew daily, was in early 1.2, more than two years ago), I could maintain movement in a vector that was constantly shifting, but always perpendicular to my target's aim, without disrupting my own aim...I just wouldn't be able to maintain the same velocity as with FA off, because of the caps that are in place.

But this is outside the purview of the designer's jobs.

I don't agree, especially when they have gone to extra effort specifically to sabotage input effectiveness in various ways.

It's just a fact of life that a mouse input will be more precise than an analog input in tasks related to aiming, and the only way to fix that is to incorporate some form of aim assist.

The gap here is much greater than it needs to be, without reducing the effectiveness of the most effective options, and aim assist is not the only way to improve things.

I used to fly planes in Battlefield 1942 with the keyboard only and was competitive with mouse+kb users because the game responded to how long I held an input and I could pulse inputs at varying rates, completely manually, to achieve the level of input I desired. It didn't remove all of the digital inputs' handicap vs. precise analog ones, but it closed the gap considerably, without diminishing the effectiveness of analog inputs in any way, or doing any of my aiming for me.

dynamic sensitivity feature for targeting, maybe something like that could be implemented.

Plenty of HOTAS users already have sensitivity slopes, and most anyone could go further with the right tools and add modifier keys to adjust slopes on the fly.

I will say that such slopes are one glaring omission from the game's control options.

 

[palazo]

Hello people, from my perspective is not so difficult to fly with hotas and FA OFF.
The problem is you probably can not do it all the time, like FULL FA OFF, but you can try it, I do it every day.

A necessary but not essential thing is:
JoyCurves
http://xedocproject.com/joystickcurves.html


This is my Saitek X52 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...6b-a3ca-4908-aa44-f3523342d990-1482251775.jpg

Some fights partial FA OFF.

I use FA OFF when I need it, especially in the moments when I need to evade as in this video with my viper vs Tinvanno from old BBFA or Next.

https://youtu.be/8HGsKokJaK0?t=1m44s

or here with my ieagle vs an FDL.

https://youtu.be/xQEAO3rCoQA?t=1m27s

or with my favorite MC Fixed ship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFmmfmfSrkA

Evading gankers with heat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3YDJTrtVYA


I also have some full fa_off battles with my saitek.

https://youtu.be/MEoQneX88dI?t=4m39s
But they are using a mixture between weapons fixed and gimballs, as everyone knows I messed up gimballs and I like to use fixed.

All this fights are against pvpeers.

Lately I'm practicing full fa off with PA-SHIPS but im not full ready

I also practice a lot of parking in the stations and doing stupid things, everyone knows that I like to hit the station.
The learning curve with the hotas is more difficult and steep.

All you need is patience.
Sorry for my language, english isnt my native language i hope you understand.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

This has nothing to do with the game itself though. It's just a fact that sticks are inferior than KB+M, in performance and precision. That's just how it is, aiming with a large physical stick is never going to have the advantages that small, fast laser mouse gives.

IMO Nothing should be changed. Asking to improve "HOTAS performance" in Elite: Dangerous is like asking to give advantages to XBOX Controller users in CS:GO on PC.
The choice of a control method is on you - but on the PC plattform, mouse+keyboard is the primary method. Adding unnatural advantages just because someone optionally picked the worse control method makes no sense, and would be a betrayal to players who got used to playing with sticks and are good with them.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

This has nothing to do with the game itself though. It's just a fact that sticks are inferior than KB+M, in performance and precision. That's just how it is, aiming with a large physical stick is never going to have the advantages that small, fast laser mouse gives.

IMO Nothing should be changed. Asking to improve "HOTAS performance" in Elite: Dangerous is like asking to give advantages to XBOX Controller users in CS:GO on PC.
The choice of a control method is on you - but on the PC plattform, mouse+keyboard is the primary method. Adding unnatural advantages just because someone optionally picked the worse control method makes no sense, and would be a betrayal to players who got used to playing with sticks and are good with them.

one thing that REALLY confuses me here,
is the fact that joysticks are used as primary input device for so many things in RL, where according gaming experience, M+K would do better.

like everything that has to control a turret with precision.

 

[Aris_]

one thing that REALLY confuses me here,
is the fact that joysticks are used as primary input device for so many things in RL, where according gaming experience, M+K would do better.

like everything that has to control a turret with precision.

That is what a simulator should do simulate otherwise we will all be behind in a perspective view of the space/air craft with our mouse point and click our opponents like war thunder the only reason this is not a reality in ED is Fdev still do not have put the 3d radar outside in camera view but given the player base it will be in a future update

http://www.flasharcade.com/action-games/play/strike-eagle.html

"INSTRUCTIONS: Use the WASD or arrow keys to move and dodge. Use the mouse to aim and shoot"

 

[Madrax573]

It's obvious that a lot of people posting here don't know why Relative mouse option exists.

Quite simply it is to simulate the 'return to centre' effect that joysticks have. When you release your joystick it automatically returns to centre.
Without relative mouse the mouse would be continually putting input and makes it almost impossible to fly full FA-off without it.

The main thing that i can tell is that ED was designed with FA-on as the default control method with 'pulses' of FA-off. This work fine with HOTAS as it makes the flight model more akin to flying an atmospheric aircraft.
But in space people like to move in 6 dof. Which HOTAS is arguably not the best control method for seeing as it only really 4 dof with the other 2 taken up with button controls.

But having said that to be honest I know plenty of HOTAS users that are awesome in FA-off flight and combat and have no issues with it. This make me think that the only real difference is KB+M control give a naturally 'better fit' to 6 dof control.

I fly KB+M purely because I travel with work and play on my laptop so a HOTAS setup isn't going to work for me.

...

On the other hand if you want to talk about simulations, let face it ED has it totally out of whack. No artificial gravity means that HOTAS physically won't be able to be used in anything near the forms of movement that we have in ED and your hands will be pinned against the seat or stretched out above your head depending on what manoeuvre your are doing. If we are talking a more newtonian flight sim then digital input will more like become the thing so maybe we should all start playing purely by keyboard!

 

[Kyokushin]

This has nothing to do with the game itself though. It's just a fact that sticks are inferior than KB+M, in performance and precision. That's just how it is, aiming with a large physical stick is never going to have the advantages that small, fast laser mouse gives.

IMO Nothing should be changed. Asking to improve "HOTAS performance" in Elite: Dangerous is like asking to give advantages to XBOX Controller users in CS:GO on PC.
The choice of a control method is on you - but on the PC plattform, mouse+keyboard is the primary method. Adding unnatural advantages just because someone optionally picked the worse control method makes no sense, and would be a betrayal to players who got used to playing with sticks and are good with them.

I would like to be bring it as it was for a matter of choice.
Its not a choice to use kb+mouse and have easier or play as like on joy and have harder.

It was good as it was (except faoff masters with relative scripts). Now in my opinion FDev should take a look into it and change something in relative mouse control to make it no so easy.

I have no problem with using fa off on stick, or aiming ot it. I am saying on mouse its just more efficient and easier.
Its rather hard to deny a fact a flying faoff altime, and clickiing rails like an desktop icon is giving an advantage


Anyway, its good to share opinion about it.

 

[mp4x]

I don't exactly care if it means I'll die more to use HOTAS. It can be frustrating in some situations, and KB+M is a little too simple now, but I use a HOTAS because it's more fun and more immersive. I don't think either should have an advantage and I agree that the KB+M controls have to be practical to use - as it's the default setting for a PC game

That said, If I just wanted to have a better K : D ratio, if that was more important, I'd just play with KB+M but instead I like to actually fly a spaceship/plane. A PvP focused player group deciding to forgo their HOTAS because they can crush more candy in their saga, with a KB+M, probably isn't a good enough reason to change anything, though

 

[Aris_]

It's obvious that a lot of people posting here don't know why Relative mouse option exists.

Quite simply it is to simulate the 'return to centre' effect that joysticks have. When you release your joystick it automatically returns to centre.
Without relative mouse the mouse would be continually putting input and makes it almost impossible to fly full FA-off without it.

The main thing that i can tell is that ED was designed with FA-on as the default control method with 'pulses' of FA-off. This work fine with HOTAS as it makes the flight model more akin to flying an atmospheric aircraft.
But in space people like to move in 6 dof. Which HOTAS is arguably not the best control method for seeing as it only really 4 dof with the other 2 taken up with button controls.

But having said that to be honest I know plenty of HOTAS users that are awesome in FA-off flight and combat and have no issues with it. This make me think that the only real difference is KB+M control give a naturally 'better fit' to 6 dof control.

I fly KB+M purely because I travel with work and play on my laptop so a HOTAS setup isn't going to work for me.

...

On the other hand if you want to talk about simulations, let face it ED has it totally out of whack. No artificial gravity means that HOTAS physically won't be able to be used in anything near the forms of movement that we have in ED and your hands will be pinned against the seat or stretched out above your head depending on what manoeuvre your are doing. If we are talking a more newtonian flight sim then digital input will more like become the thing so maybe we should all start playing purely by keyboard!

I don't know the reason for relative mouse but in a competitive simulator has no business being in options menu

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149104145

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zFKuluAscI

they don't even roll !!!! not needed a whole joystick axis made irrelevant in top pvp fights using m/k and that is normal by what logic

remember Icarus Cup maybe biased inputs has something to do being sacked and it will be a nice joke if they decide to make categories between input methods

 

[Madrax573]

I don't know the reason for relative mouse but in a competitive simulator has no business being in options menu

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149104145

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zFKuluAscI

they don't even roll !!!! not needed a whole joystick axis made irrelevant in top pvp fights using m/k and that is normal by what logic

Lol! In space rolling is not required. Again. Obviously a lot of people really don't understand the whole concept of FA-off and 6 dof.

 

[Aris_]

Lol! In space rolling is not required. Again. Obviously a lot of people really don't understand the whole concept of FA-off and 6 dof.

Lmao

roll is needed because is a higher turning rate change of direction combined with pitch even in space thus being made by biased m/k irrelevant due to high speed faoff

elementary flight mechanics