PvP ATR wont save you

[Martian Successor]

The situation today is that I can gank and pvp with the same ship. I can do regular 1 v 1 or wing fights. So lets say I have someone trying to claim a bounty on me, I wont mind fighting untill death, because:
A: the rebuy is cheap
B: my ship is outfitted to fight back

With the new system, my ship is no longer outfitted to fight back. Running from a fight in a gank outfitted ship is easier than ever. What is accomplished here is my ship is 100% dedicated for ganks, I wont "waiste" my time with fighting off bounty hunters or just doing regular 1 v 1. Right now my ship is only good for one thing, kill weak pray and run away.

The system is not protecting this weak pray, it transformed previously pvp able ships to become gank dedicated ships.

You make a good point that someone inclined to do ganks will now outfit purely for ganks and won't stick around for asymmetrical PvP (the irony of gankers not sticking around for an asymmetrical fight ), whereas now some gankers using PvP builds might be more inclined to stick around for a fight because they're equipped for it.

Gankers gonna gank no matter what though so the alternative of not having an ATR response and not having an increased rebuy for murder sprees is not a solution as we would just be back to the status quo of today. ATR was never meant to prevent the killing of other CMDRs, it was devised as a way to put a cap on indiscriminate killing sprees (NPC and CMDR alike) so that they can't continue on forever until the murder/death/killer just gets bored of it and logs out for the day.

What we need to analyse is whether it is doing that job correctly. Is it driving away gankers who have reached a certain threshold of murders or not? Is the threshold too low or too high? Are the ATR too avoidable and thus meaningless?

Judging from the beta I would say the ATR are completely avoidable because you can simply just go to superceruise before the 1 minute ATR arrival timer expires or you can exploit the AI's stupid behaviour and kite them like Harry did until they all wake out. This can be fixed if they made the ATR persistent and able to follow you into supercruise, remember you and interdict you thus essentially hounding you out of that system. Then the thresholds can come into play.

If for example you have already popped up on the ATR's shizz list once already, their response timer for your continued murdering should be shortened and the number of murders you have to do to get their attention again should be less. This will prevent people from just high waking out of a system when the ATR appear and then waking back in and all of a sudden the system pretends like they don't know this criminal and he can just begin killing again from zero as far as the ATR response is concerned.

Right now in the beta the ATR are a largely meaningless addition since if you don't want to encounter them you don't have to and all it costs you is the time it takes to go to supercruise and interdict another victim be it NPC or CMDR.

 

[Martian Successor]

As others have said before, this is the crux of it. The lack of persistance is where FDev have failed the most with ATR. No threat in supercruise, and a new ETA/timer after the next kill makes ATR useless.
Ganking will now go from "gank them all for as long as I please" to "gank 1, then 1, then 1, then 1...."

Stupid AI or not, they need to force an outlaw to leave the system, not just the current instance.


Didn't you read the memo Ag? Highwaking is cheating

It's not high waking if you use the 15 second menu logout

Spoiler

As the wizard himself demonstrates at the 5:20 mark in the video below


[video=youtube;GcbEdsQ6Ai0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcbEdsQ6Ai0[/video]

 

[Riverside]

I disagree. If the baddie jumps away, then C&P has done its job; keeping the baddie from killing any more in that system. I don't want every murderer to die every time they commit murder. I do however want them to be unable to stick around and keep killing when they reach a certain treshold.

Unfortunately, it's the lack of NPC persistance that prevents C&P (ie. ATR) from being effective. They don't chase outside of the current instance, which they absolutely should. And they should react to your presence immediately if you return to the system from a hi-wake.

While I agree more persistent NPCs would help I think this is going to be difficult to implement. We have some persistence now, following a high waking NPC for example, but it's very limited.

However persistent the ATR ships were, once the player docks & fully repairs their ship they can tank more of them. If they cannot repair & rearm while docked each encounter chips away at their power plant until eventually the ship is either destroyed or cleaned - it forces a conclusion where even persistent ATR does not, like repeatedly interdicting a low-waking trader between the star & the dock.

How long the player can survive for becomes a skill, it forces the dilemma of whether to quit while they're ahead (by taking the financial hit) or continuing to see how far they can push it.

They will be able to dock, access certain facilities, but not repair their hot ship or swap to a clean one. They will have access to the factors (to clean their ship & pay fines/bounties), the pirate can still sell their booty but there is an existential certainty that one way or another the crime spree will end (pay up or be destroyed).

I can see that the idea isn't popular, but I think it would make the rest of the C&P stuff more effective. It's arguably too effective but I believe anything less severe would undermine most of rest of the C&P mechanisms. The objective is not only to get the player out of the system, but also to significantly delay their return. If they can dock for repairs anywhere it only limits their return to however long it takes to get there, repair & return. If they cannot repair eventually they will not return at all without facing the consequences of their decisions & actions.


The OP states that the C&P system is useless because of a fatal flaw.
More persistent ATR makes the loophole smaller, at a cost (dev time).
My proposal removes it (I think), at a cost (lore).

 

[znôrt]

Highwaking (or even low waking) from a 1 v 1 is poor and is looked down at.

algomatic, i respect your perspective but don't ridicule it by generalizing.

Most pvpiers put 2D fsd which gives you extra speed and agility.

as an extreme light build lover, that tiny change doesn't really make a difference, it's pure ocd.

 

[Martian Successor]

While I agree more persistent NPCs would help I think this is going to be difficult to implement. We have some persistence now, following a high waking NPC for example, but it's very limited.

However persistent the ATR ships were, once the player docks & fully repairs their ship they can tank more of them. If they cannot repair & rearm while docked each encounter chips away at their power plant until eventually the ship is either destroyed or cleaned - it forces a conclusion where even persistent ATR does not, like repeatedly interdicting a low-waking trader between the star & the dock.

How long the player can survive for becomes a skill, it forces the dilemma of whether to quit while they're ahead (by taking the financial hit) or continuing to see how far they can push it.

They will be able to dock, access certain facilities, but not repair their hot ship or swap to a clean one. They will have access to the factors (to clean their ship & pay fines/bounties), the pirate can still sell their booty but there is an existential certainty that one way or another the crime spree will end (pay up or be destroyed).

I can see that the idea isn't popular, but I think it would make the rest of the C&P stuff more effective. It's arguably too effective but I believe anything less severe would undermine most of rest of the C&P mechanisms. The objective is not only to get the player out of the system, but also to significantly delay their return. If they can dock for repairs anywhere it only limits their return to however long it takes to get there, repair & return. If they cannot repair eventually they will not return at all without facing the consequences of their decisions & actions.


The OP states that the C&P system is useless because of a fatal flaw.
More persistent ATR makes the loophole smaller, at a cost (dev time).
My proposal removes it (I think), at a cost (lore).

Your proposal makes sense and follows the logic perfectly well. I just think it is far too extreme because it essentially puts a player on a singular path with no return. Similar to how if you corner a wild animal you are in fact increasing the chances of it attacking or lashing out rather than decreasing the danger. Past a certain point you are positively guaranteeing that the response you get will be to attack and cause as much damage as possible.

If the murdering player has no place to retreat to and go to ground while they lick their wounds that can easily just put them in the mindset to go all out and try to do as much damage as they possibly can before they buy the big ticket to the rebuy show. It will become like a competition amongst gankers to see who can last the longest and create the biggest killing spree before they go out like Billy the Kid.

NPC "persistence" is easily cheated around by the devs if 100% persistence cannot be achieved. The same way that NPC bounty hunters or pirates in Vipers/Vultures can sometimes magically appear to interdict you even though you left them 30 light years behind you.

The game should be easy enough to code so that a system where a player has previously caused enough of a ruckus to summon the ATR once already should be registering that player as a threat and thus spawn ATR ships in supercruise once it validates that the player is in the system. If the player drops from supercruise randomly to avoid potential interdiction make sure the game gives him a 10 second warning and then spawns an ATR squad on top of them.

 

[Riverside]

Your proposal makes sense and follows the logic perfectly well. I just think it is far too extreme because it essentially puts a player on a singular path with no return. Similar to how if you corner a wild animal you are in fact increasing the chances of it attacking or lashing out rather than decreasing the danger. Past a certain point you are positively guaranteeing that the response you get will be to attack and cause as much damage as possible.

If the murdering player has no place to retreat to and go to ground while they lick their wounds that can easily just put them in the mindset to go all out and try to do as much damage as they possibly can before they buy the big ticket to the rebuy show. It will become like a competition amongst gankers to see who can last the longest and create the biggest killing spree before they go out like Billy the Kid.

NPC "persistence" is easily cheated around by the devs if 100% persistence cannot be achieved. The same way that NPC bounty hunters or pirates in Vipers/Vultures can sometimes magically appear to interdict you even though you left them 30 light years behind you.

The game should be easy enough to code so that a system where a player has previously caused enough of a ruckus to summon the ATR once already should be registering that player as a threat and thus spawn ATR ships in supercruise once it validates that the player is in the system. If the player drops from supercruise randomly to avoid potential interdiction make sure the game gives him a 10 second warning and then spawns an ATR squad on top of them.

You make a good point about the cornered animal, but this is all once you pass the 2MCr bounty mark & the Interstellar bounty kicks in. I don't think you get that kind of bounty by accident.

I agree having the one minute warning steadily reduce would help though.

 

[jasonbarron]

Also, who are you adressing this to? This is the PvP subforum. You telling the PvPers that ATR won't save them from.... who?

He's speaking to the dedicated PvErs who've been slowly but surely infesting the sub to troll us

 

[Stigbob]

He's speaking to the dedicated PvErs who've been slowly but surely infesting the sub to troll us

 

[jasonbarron]

https://m.popkey.co/cf8ec9/JJMwl.gif

Haha, look, there's one now!

 

[Stigbob]

Haha, look, there's one now!

I'm not a dedicated PVE'er though obviously.

 

[Martian Successor]

He's speaking to the dedicated PvErs who've been slowly but surely infesting the sub to troll us

Wait, wait, wait. You mean to tell me they let PvEers in here? Oh God! I drank the same water as them from the water cooler earlier!!!

Spoiler

*Deletes forum account in horror*

 

[jasonbarron]

I'm not a dedicated PVE'er though obviously.

Sure, "Stigbob." If that's even your real name. You would say that, just to try and blend in.

Wait, wait, wait. You mean to tell me they let PvEers in here? Oh God! I drank the same water as them from the water cooler earlier!!!

Spoiler

https://img-s1.onedio.com/id-537fbc...-7b52130fe6ed1da1c1aa3d23af18d026c1c68aa4.gif

*Deletes forum account in horror*

Have you ever seen Invasion of the Body Snatchers? Basically that.

 

[Roybe]

From a duel, sure. You agree in advance whether its to the death or shields down or whatever, and then you stick to that. In Open play, you know you are going to lose, you run if you have any brains.

Or you can play with a modified Iron Man rule...if you are interdicted by a RL person...you must self destruct.

To the OP...the ATR was never meant as a preventative measure against any action in the game. Punishment...yes. Nothing can stop anyone from PVP if they really want to do it.

 

[Stigbob]

Sure, "Stigbob." If that's even your real name. You would say that, just to try and blend in.

Have you ever seen Invasion of the Body Snatchers? Basically that.

More like this :

Spoiler

 

[jasonbarron]

Didn't you read the memo Ag? Highwaking is cheating

I know you're making a joke, but I think it bears mentioning that among PvPers targeting other PvPers it's not so much cheating as it is "wimping out." Personally, I think non-combat types who have violence thrust upon them are mandated to wake out.

More like this :

Spoiler

http://www.nexusroute.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/trekmantrap3.jpg

Yeah, that was a good episode for sure. Still looking at you with a degree of suspicion, though, even though you apparently have good taste in old Star Trek re-runs.

 

[Stigbob]

I know you're making a joke, but I think it bears mentioning that among PvPers targeting other PvPers it's not so much cheating as it is "wimping out." Personally, I think non-combat types who have violence thrust upon them are mandated to wake out.

Wimping out is how I view clogging.

Yeah, that was a good episode for sure. Still looking at you with a degree of suspicion, though, even though you apparently have good taste in old Star Trek re-runs.

Fair enough, log into the game accept the friend request I sent and we can fling some pew at each other. Be warned though I suck so badly it causes gravitational anomalies.

This is not a trap to get you into the same instance as a body snatcher pod, honest.

 

[jasonbarron]

Wimping out is how I view clogging.



Fair enough, log into the game accept the friend request I sent and we can fling some pew at each other. Be warned though I suck so badly it causes gravitational anomalies.

This is not a trap to get you into the same instance as a body snatcher pod, honest.

Well I'll be damned. Ok, fair enough. Like I mentioned several times previously I'm taking a little break from ED until a few aspects of Beyond come to fruition. Anytime after that we can get together and give it a go.

 

[Stigbob]

So, best fighting trousers on.

 

[Morbad]

You make a good point about the cornered animal, but this is all once you pass the 2MCr bounty mark & the Interstellar bounty kicks in. I don't think you get that kind of bounty by accident.

My Corvette has a 140 million CR bounty on it in the Beta.

I could probably have started it by accident and then allowed it to snowball...afterall, in the current system I've had 200cr bounties that ended up in the six figures after shooting down wing after wing after wing of CMDR PvE bounty hunters having their first jabs at PvP.

People see WANTED and they get all sly and greedy: https://youtu.be/4B6aIKCBmag?t=5750

Dastardly bounty hunters trying to sucker punch my ship like I forgot the shield generator by accident!

 

[Avvie Rayne]

I came from a crowd of people who would turn crimes off to PvP, even against their sworn enemies. The mature crowd on Xbox is few and far in between but it's there.

I can forsee factions who intend on fighting each other coming up with these Geneva Conventions of No Crimes a lot more often than what's probably in play now. It sounds like it's not going to stop interfaction warfare as much as it's going to stop senseless murder.

(Being on the bad side myself, I gained no satisfaction burning Eravate of all its seals. I long for those enduring, hard fights where it's massive, fair and well fought. Killing a sidey, eagle or whatever in a Corvette or equally powerful PvP ship gives no satisfaction. So maybe that'll also bring out some honorable PvP groups)