Mass Manager vs Deep Charge

[Mengy]

I believe I may have found another reason to run with a Deep Charge FSD over a Mass Manager FSD: Neutron Jumps. See thread here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...sly-Frontier?p=6352354&viewfull=1#post6352354

I still need to test by modding an FSD with the Deep Charge effect on it, but in a nutshell:

Neutron jumps in the beta seem to want to charge to 500%, not 400%, see my pics here:

Spoiler

However, you can't actually jump more than 400% due to the limit of 5.0T fuel per jump, as shown here:

Spoiler

My theory is that an FSD with a Deep Charge effect on it, which uses +10% more fuel or 5.50T, could in fact utilize the full 500% range on beta neutron jumps.

I just need to get the mats in beta to roll up another FSD and try this out...

 

[JonathanBurnage]

I believe I may have found another reason to run with a Deep Charge FSD over a Mass Manager FSD: Neutron Jumps. See thread here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...sly-Frontier?p=6352354&viewfull=1#post6352354

I still need to test by modding an FSD with the Deep Charge effect on it, but in a nutshell:

Neutron jumps in the beta seem to want to charge to 500%, not 400%, see my pics here:

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/EJ5O9TI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EUNPFX7.jpg

However, you can't actually jump more than 400% due to the limit of 5.0T fuel per jump, as shown here:

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/dy68xyg.jpg

My theory is that an FSD with a Deep Charge effect on it, which uses +10% more fuel or 5.50T, could in fact utilize the full 500% range on beta neutron jumps.

I just need to get the mats in beta to roll up another FSD and try this out...

I think it’s just a display bug. Max fuel exceeded is max range exceeded; limiting your fuel use is how the game limits your range. Whether you put on mass manager or deep charge, your range will be about the same in an AspE. The effect of the neutron supercharge is to multiply your optimised mass by a factor of 4; I think the map is using x5 and telling you that you can jump further than you really can. If you tried it with deep charge, I think you’ll just get the same error (but with 5.5 tons).

 

[Mengy]

I think it’s just a display bug. Max fuel exceeded is max range exceeded; limiting your fuel use is how the game limits your range. Whether you put on mass manager or deep charge, your range will be about the same in an AspE. The effect of the neutron supercharge is to multiply your optimised mass by a factor of 4; I think the map is using x5 and telling you that you can jump further than you really can. If you tried it with deep charge, I think you’ll just get the same error (but with 5.5 tons).

I think you are right. I did the math this morning while I ate my breakfast and I don't see how even 5.5T will get you any farther from a neutron, it works out almost the same as Mass Manager.

Which really kind of begs the question, why have both experimental effects if they are so dang close to each other in end result? Seems like a strange design choice for Frontier to bother with.

 

[YinYin]

Which really kind of begs the question, why have both experimental effects if they are so dang close to each other in end result? Seems like a strange design choice for Frontier to bother with.

With a break even point at class 5 it's a pretty obvious choice to me. That's right in the middle of the bulk, breaking all ships into two pretty equal halves of what is best for them.

 

[Jackie Silver]

What is p for an A-rate drive? I get p ~= 3.425 ?

Scratch that I was doing it totally wrong. Nothing to see here...

 

[mtt9999 [Parabolus]]

I think you are right. I did the math this morning while I ate my breakfast and I don't see how even 5.5T will get you any farther from a neutron, it works out almost the same as Mass Manager.

Which really kind of begs the question, why have both experimental effects if they are so dang close to each other in end result? Seems like a strange design choice for Frontier to bother with.

Agreed. Perhaps they could require different mats as to differentiate then, making it easier.

 

[mtt9999 [Parabolus]]

I think the main complaints come from those who want to engineer a lot of modules on a lot of ships and who are focussing on the need to take each module through the 5 levels (which definitely takes more effort but with certain results at the end of the process) compared to being able to just go straight to G5 every time once you've got the engineer to that level but then needing maybe dozens of attempts with each module to get something as good.

Funny thing, and I know I'm in the minority, but i actually like the engineers. After many months in the black, I like coming back to the bubble and working on a new ship: putting together a shopping list of all materials I need to improve the many modules. It then gets me to participate in various parts of game play. Right now I'm working on a few missions to get some key mats before 3.0 drops. Also gives me a chance to pew pew in my python.

So in other words im pumped. Glad that 3.0 appears to also have slight advantages in the previous system, encouraging me too participate.

Now what I'm really anxious about are the tech brokers - any modules for exploration? All I saw were weapons.

 

[Han Zulu]

Now what I'm really anxious about are the tech brokers - any modules for exploration? All I saw were weapons.

Haven't heard anything. Most updates in the game is focused on combat, so I'd be surprised there be any exploration news. It would make first page.

If you do find anything that's useful for exploration, please share.

 

[JonathanBurnage]

Haven't heard anything. Most updates in the game is focused on combat, so I'd be surprised there be any exploration news. It would make first page.

If you do find anything that's useful for exploration, please share.

Maybe one of them sells the elusive neutron supercharge capacitor...

 

[Orvidius]

I don't think we're going to get this, but one wishlist item I'd like to see at the tech broker is an auxiliary power unit for the optional modules. Something that would supply enough power to run an AFMU while the power plant is switched off.

 

[Han Zulu]

I don't think we're going to get this, but one wishlist item I'd like to see at the tech broker is an auxiliary power unit for the optional modules. Something that would supply enough power to run an AFMU while the power plant is switched off.

It could be a experimental on the AFMU. Something that only works for a short time and has to be recharged.

 

[mtt9999 [Parabolus]]

I would like a tech broker module: gravity deflector. Reduces the effect of gravity wells from planets and moons by a percentage... especially now that I'm actually gonna be getting closer to all those moons and planets!

 

[YinYin]

Now what I'm really anxious about are the tech brokers - any modules for exploration? All I saw were weapons.

The corrosion resistant cargo rack has been in there on stream. So it won't be just weapons.
But I doubt there will be a new module type. I just expect wider access to performance enhanced drives and these racks.
Maybe larger classes for the racks as well.

 

[Major Klutz]

Do the new numbers affect or change the break even point? With 55% to optimal mass as the base now instead of 50%.
Mass manager and Deep charge haven't changed so the multipliers would be the same.
1.04 vs 1.1^(1/p). Since the FSD drives and their max fuel usage are the same, the results should be the same. No?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/403979-Beyond-Beta-2-61-2-Optimised-Mass-boost

 

[JonathanBurnage]

Do the new numbers affect or change the break even point? With 55% to optimal mass as the base now instead of 50%

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/403979-Beyond-Beta-2-61-2-Optimised-Mass-boost

No, it is only the base multiplier to optimised mass they have changed. Both the special effects' multipliers will combine with it the same as before, so the answer will be the same.

Edit: here's why...

(Major Klutz - just spotted your edit after I typed this - yes, you've got it [yesnod])

Where alpha_Opt is the multiplier you get from the increased range blueprint, beta_MM is the multiplier you get from the Mass Manager effect, and beta_DC is the multiplier you get from the Deep Charge effect.

The first line is Mass Manager. It is a straight multiplier to M_Opt.

The second and third lines are Deep Charge, which multiplies f. I have brought it out of the brackets to give it the same form as the Mass Manager equation.

You can now see that alpha_Opt appears in the same place in both equations, so changing it will affect them both equally. Hence, FDev's change of the maximum value of alpha _Opt does not change the original conclusion. But it does mean you can go further

 

[iospace]

So here's my question, I'm fond of my DBX. It has a size 5 FSD, but is a small ship, which one would work best then, mass manager?

 

[Major Klutz]

Any ship with a class 5 FSD has the same fuel use constant, so the bonus from Deep Charge is the same regardless of the size or mass of your ship.
With Size 5 FSD, it's a wash. Deep Charge gives you a 1.04 bonus, the same as mass manager.
But Mass Manager would be preferred since the bonus doesn't cost you any additional fuel per jump.

On smaller FSDs, you get more of a bonus from Deep Charge and on larger FSDs you get less from Deep Charge.
If I understand the reason why, it's because the larger drives are less fuel efficient per ly, so you get less from the additional fuel.

JonathanBurnage, does the table on page 1 assume an A rated drive for all classes or is the constant the same for all ratings?
Not that anyone would bother to engineer and under rated FSD.

 

[JonathanBurnage]

Any ship with a class 5 FSD has the same fuel use constant, so the bonus from Deep Charge is the same regardless of the size or mass of your ship.
With Size 5 FSD, it's a wash. Deep Charge gives you a 1.04 bonus, the same as mass manager.
But Mass Manager would be preferred since the bonus doesn't cost you any additional fuel per jump.

On smaller FSDs, you get more of a bonus from Deep Charge and on larger FSDs you get less from Deep Charge.
If I understand the reason why, it's because the larger drives are less fuel efficient per ly, so you get less from the additional fuel.

JonathanBurnage, does the table on page 1 assume an A rated drive for all classes or is the constant the same for all ratings?
Not that anyone would bother to engineer and under rated FSD.

The table is the same for all ratings - p varies only with the class of your drive. The constant l does vary with your drive rating, but like alpha_Opt it's the same for both effects, so it doesn't change the outcome.

iospace - thanks for your question; I have amended the wording in the OP to make it clear that the size of your FSD is the important thing.

 

[baqar79]

Thanks for your research (how did you enter all those math symbols, wouldn't mind doing that myself).

I haven't done much math lately, but by following the example that you posted I can see now that you only need to make a comparison of 1.04 vs 1.1^(1/p), to see which is the more effective between the two.

While I would rather FD allow you to choose more secondary effects, I think Deep Charge should get a fairly big buff. eg Deep Charge @ 20% vs Mass Manager with a 5A FSD drive:
1.04 vs 1.2^(1/2.45) = 1.08

Deep charge will then give much better range, but 20% extra fuel required per jump is pretty significant (6T of fuel per Jump). For example my AspX's 16T tank will allow 3 full jumps with Mass manager, but only 2 with Deep Charge.

 

[Mengy]

So here's my question, I'm fond of my DBX. It has a size 5 FSD, but is a small ship, which one would work best then, mass manager?

I've tested both Deep Charge and Mass Manager on my DBX in the beta. Deep Charge gets a very small extra distance per jump, on mine it was 0.04lys more than Mass Manager. HOWEVER, I vastly prefer Mass Manager on the DBX for one reason: that extra 0.5T of fuel used per jump matters with the slow 4A scoop on the DBX. The extra 0.04lys doesn't make any difference, but the extra time scooping fue is actually felt when comparing Deep Charge to Mass Manager. On a ship with a fast scoop it might not matter much, but on the DBX it does in my opinion.


I'll be sticking with Mass Manager when 3.0 goes live.