What if Shield Boosters Weren't Protected by the Shield?

Deleted member 38366

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Firing weapons drains weap PIP, boosting drains Engine PIP, so why doesn't sys PIP get drained when fired upon?

It actually does, but only if the Shield's inherent recharge rate exceeds the Power Distributor funneling energy into SYS.
With Engineered or large A-Grade Power Distributors, that doesn't happen often though. It's highly visible in any SLF however.

You can force the effect to become visible when going 0 Pips SYS after taking any Shield damage.
 
Firing weapons drains weap PIP, boosting drains Engine PIP, so why doesn't sys PIP get drained when fired upon?

It does, indirectly. The Sys Cap drains to recharge the damaged shield. Fit a large-sized bi-weave and you will regularly need to move pips into Sys to keep up with the recharge or the Sys Cap will drain completely and you will no longer be able to use some utilities, for example.

Small ships with 2k integrity are hard to kill, for anyone. I don't see any reason that they should be easy to kill. Besides, if you have some laser turrets and a beam/pulse slf, they won't last for too long.

Totally agree about the SLF but I found that in my Courier, keeping range less than 2 km, no c2 or c3 turrets on a Big Ship could hit me, basically ever, as my lateral accel/decel exceeded their tracking ability.

I actually have a section of a vid of this I was meaning to turn into a .gif.

If you need a 9000mj cutter to hit up a CZ I would seriously consider handing in my combat wings.
I know plenty people who tear them up in a <500mj vultures.

The vulture isn't really a like-for-like comparison but yes, my CZ Cutter has no engineering on either shield or boosters and we don't have any trouble.

I would concede that about 1 time out of 5 it goes bad from the get-go, but the other 4 times out of 5 I just smash the enemy big ships at the start, then me and my side build momentum, overwhelming the CZ and slaughtering the re-spawns as they come in. I don't use any of the methods to avoid aggro, like lurking on the edge, just shoot the biggest thing right in the middle of the CZ from the start and like I say, 80% of the time the shield is fine.
 
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Yeah, I read over and over (granted, from the same few people) about how you can't even enter a CZ without 3000mj on your big ship, yet I did most of my CZing, and earned my Elite combat rank, in a 715mj Anaconda and a 800mj Corvette, both usually without shield cells and even with stock hulls back then.

These days, my Corvette rocks mil-spec armor and 1400+ mj - my relative timidity in open showing - but it's still nowhere near as large as what some will proclaim to be a "minimum", and below is "unplayable".

I lurk on the edges of the CZ mostly, charging in when appropriate, but the end result is the same - build up a murder-ball of allied ships -> utterly dominate the CZ.
 
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Just a crazy thought that popped into my mind: What if shield boosters weren't protected by the shield? The lore justification would be easy enough. You could just say they act like an umbrella: projecting shield around them, but creating a "blind spot" in the process. At a moment's thought, I feel like this would solve a lot of issues with the engineered super-shields, in an interesting counter-play sort of way. Having a hard time dealing with this super shield? Focus on trying to target the boosters. Gives ships a cool "peeling away the layers" sort of defense. Missiles would be very good at dealing with them, but that gives more reason to fit PDTs and ECM, thus further lowering the overwhelming advantage of shield boosters.

What do you guys think? Pros / cons?

What if there was an Engineering side effect to directly damage Shield Boosters. And then an Engineering side effect for Booster to counter that. And then another Engineering Side effect to some missiles to disable that side effect for ten seconds. And then another Engineering side effect for Boosters to reduce that time...

Alternatively, we could just try and keep the game mechanics as straight forward as possible so, God forbid, when two CMDRs actually engage it's not all been dictated a week before by what they happened to Engineer.

ps: I know this isn't really a comment about your post (for which I apologise), but the premise holds true. I'm just sick and tired of FD adding in more and more and more paper scissor stone mechanics, rather than - shock horror - actually letting CMDRs have a fight whose outcome is dictated by the CMDRs' combat skill and choices made during that combat...
 
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It could be interesting. I'm concerned this would mean that shield boosters just offer tankiness in 2 ways instead of 1 (thanks to MRP stacking). If they were vulnerable to missile/explosives, though...huh.

Gives more reason to pack those kinds of weapons, and definitely increased value for PD/ECM.

Personally, I won't be fully satisfied until hitpoint inflation is, well, deflated, but...this could make me content, at least.
 
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I personally don't feel that the real issue here is one of shield boosters themselves being the problem, but the complete lack of alternatives being the real problem. Players that wish to specialise their ship into combat have literally no other options for their modules and utilities but to ramp up their defences. This is particularly relevant for the larger ships with 6+ utility slots, as pretty much the only other potential utility a player might want is a KWS and maybe a heat sink launcher or two, which still leaves them with multiple shield boosters. Likewise, for the actual internal modules, other than an SLF bay, all a player can pick up are SCBs, HRPs and MRPs, all of which contribute to a ship's survivability. There's no option for passively improved heat venting for using overcharged beams, no supplementary distributors for supplying multiple laser banks in prolonged shooting, no bolt-on maneuvering jets, no shield analysers to reduce enemy resistances, no magazines to allow trigger happy ammunition usage, no offensive swarm limpets; there's basically nothing for a ship to do with it's internals and utilities except becoming extremely difficult to destroy.
 
Just to say, changing shields from being a hard barrier to being damage mitigation with bleedthrough brings them in line with how shields work in sci-fi TV shows - particularly Star Trek, where you have everything exploding around the crew in the cockpit and massive internal damage happening while the shields are still at 75%. Whereas currently in Elite, your shields remain a hard barrier until they hit 0%.

Begs the question, which method is more realistic? As we all know, unfortunately, energy shields that we see in sci-fi generally are pure fantasy concessions. Energy shields and deflectors would be wonderful to have in real life, but as far as I understand it, the density required of a shield to protect against 100% of thermal and kinetic attacks means the shield would be an incredibly thick, opaque solid... basically armour. If a shield prevents a laser from passing through, then the shield would also prevent all light from passing through... both ways... meaning no visuals, sensors would be useless because infrared information wouldn't reach them etc... not ideal.

So, what's the solution? Granted it's not a real problem though, because these impossible energy barriers have been an accepted sci-fi concession for decades across all forms of media.

But still what is a more realistic way of depicting shields? Might be an interested discussion, and better gameplay mechanics might come out of the back of it.
 
While I think that ways to attack the boosters directly would be great, exposing them outright would be not good :
  • Long range rails would instagib them
  • Missiles would mop them up like there is no tomorrow
  • It would only work for PvP because NPC's don't target sub-systems.

I'd rather have a "softer" approach to it :
  • Change phasing so that phasing weapons can damage boosters.
  • Change reverb torps/mines so that they damage boosters first, shield gen last.
  • Make booster very susceptible to heat damage.
  • We'll see about the flechette launcher. It was very undewhelming during the beta.

TBH, I think that boosters would have been better off as buckler style directional mini-shields, but that option is long gone (IMO).

Still god-shields are completly OP at the moment. It turns 99% of the PvE content into a mindless turkey shoot.
  • Top engineered weapons on ship : +70% damage. Make it +100% with the better distro.
  • Top engineered shields on a big3 : upward of +400% shields, not accouting for SCB's that can double/triple that amount.

In other words : engineering benefits defense far more than offense, which is visible in two ways : 30min PvP battles, and invincible PvE ships.

Hull get shafted because high yield shells and super pen will wreck your internals no matter how much HP you stack. The argument in favour
of making distinction between an ablative armor layer and the ship hull could be made : As long as the armor is not blasted away, nothing gets through.

I think it would be hillarious to give NPC's 6 G5 boosters on their big3, and see how fast people call for a shield rebalance. I mean... if we're not the heroes
of the game, why to we have special gear. Right ?
 
Oh, I didn't mean alone. In my experience, 1v2 is viable, Big Ship v Mediums, but the Big Ship won't win with the utmost apex builds and piloting on both sides. Weaker but still respectable pairings can be defeated, though.
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You're basically making the point here. You say that a big ship will be in trouble when fighting several enemies. You describe that two can be tough when their pilots are perfect, if they are not, it requires more than two to get the big ship into trouble. But why should a big ship reliably beat more than one enemy? Just because it's bigger?
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It might be just me, but the game very much is based on the number of players. One on one counts Players, not the mass of ships, shield value or number of hardpoints. A wing consists of a maximum of four players, there's no "you can field a total of 10 hardpoints, so if one brings a T10, he can only wing up with one hauler". Thus in my eyes, the player counts, while the ship is merely their tool. As long as big ships are at an advantage against an equal number of smaller ships, their pricetag is justified, although idealy the opponent can compensate for the advantage by competent flying.
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While I think that ways to attack the boosters directly would be great, exposing them outright would be not good :
  • Long range rails would instagib them
  • Missiles would mop them up like there is no tomorrow
  • It would only work for PvP because NPC's don't target sub-systems.
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The first one -may- be true, depending on the implementation, although it will require some skillful flying and shooting. So it could merely be seen as a reward for skill. Also, utility slots are rather small spots on the hull and based how the suggestion was written, i would expect the area of vulnerability of a shield booster to be just s small cone on top of it. So shoot it from the wrong angle, and you still hit the shields.
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That would mean that turning your ship to Keep the boosters away from the enemy would again prevent them from being damaged. So again, skill would be rewarded.
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On missiles, it would very much depend on how much damage would bleed through. If the mentioned cones of vulnerability would exist, it would require missiles to hit rather well. Turning your ship away would again be the "skill" solution, but you could also bring one or two PDS and missiles wouldn't be any trouble any more. (Unless somebody carries more than two missile racks, in which case he sacrificed a good deal of firepower and deserves doing the damage.
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Last not least on the PvE aspect: many NPCs do carry missile launchers. They just currently almost never fire them while shields are up. As most players fly unbreakable shield setups, they don't experience missile fire from NPCs. Within the scope of this suggestion, NPCs could start using missiles against shielded players. So you better have your shield boosters on your ships belly and turn them away from incoming fire, or alternatively bring a few PDS. I don't really see a big issue.
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I'd rather have a "softer" approach to it :
  • Change phasing so that phasing weapons can damage boosters.
  • Change reverb torps/mines so that they damage boosters first, shield gen last.
  • Make booster very susceptible to heat damage.
  • We'll see about the flechette launcher. It was very undewhelming during the beta.
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So the answer would be more engineering, more god-effects? I don't think so. I'd rather have a solution which doesn't once again rely on very specific engineer-based mechanics. We already have way too much of that, we don't need even more.
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So the answer would be more engineering, more god-effects? I don't think so. I'd rather have a solution which doesn't once again rely on very specific engineer-based mechanics. We already have way too much of that, we don't need even more.
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Well, unless FD implements some kind of diminishing returns on booster +% strength, but given that this proposal generated more salt than what can be found in the dead sea, my optimism is limited.
I 100% agree that not relying on specials would be desirable :
  • Affects both PvE and PvP equally. No : CMDR's are heroes in PvE. :)
  • Don't rely on (although a soft version) of rock paper cissor.


About target being tiny : sure, at short range. At long range with the autosnap from fixed long range rails it will be a short fight.
 
Don't like the amount of handwaivium this introduces. So if I have 3 shield boosters, why can't I mount them so that the blind spots don't overlap?

There is an easier solution to reduce the shield meta.

- Get rid of shield boosters
- Move all scanners to the now freed up utility slots.
- Restrict SCBs to military slots.

Done. You're welcome FDEV, no financial compensation needed.
 
Don't like the amount of handwaivium this introduces. So if I have 3 shield boosters, why can't I mount them so that the blind spots don't overlap?

There is an easier solution to reduce the shield meta.

- Get rid of shield boosters
- Move all scanners to the now freed up utility slots.
- Restrict SCBs to military slots.

Done. You're welcome FDEV, no financial compensation needed.
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You forgot to also write "wipe all player accounts, years after launch". For this is the only way your suggestion could work.
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You're welcome, aguettinger, no financial compensation needed.
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Yeah, I read over and over (granted, from the same few people) about how you can't even enter a CZ without 3000mj on your big ship, yet I did most of my CZing, and earned my Elite combat rank, in a 715mj Anaconda and a 800mj Corvette, both usually without shield cells and even with stock hulls back then.

These days, my Corvette rocks mil-spec armor and 1400+ mj - my relative timidity in open showing - but it's still nowhere near as large as what some will proclaim to be a "minimum", and below is "unplayable".

I lurk on the edges of the CZ mostly, charging in when appropriate, but the end result is the same - build up a murder-ball of allied ships -> utterly dominate the CZ.

And says the guy that reach ELITE in combat in 1.0-1.2 when we don't have enginnered NPCS and when 800MJ of shield are a good ammount considering the raw DPS of the ships in that time.
 
What if there was an Engineering side effect to directly damage Shield Boosters. And then an Engineering side effect for Booster to counter that. And then another Engineering Side effect to some missiles to disable that side effect for ten seconds. And then another Engineering side effect for Boosters to reduce that time...

Alternatively, we could just try and keep the game mechanics as straight forward as possible so, God forbid, when two CMDRs actually engage it's not all been dictated a week before by what they happened to Engineer.

ps: I know this isn't really a comment about your post (for which I apologise), but the premise holds true. I'm just sick and tired of FD adding in more and more and more paper scissor stone mechanics, rather than - shock horror - actually letting CMDRs have a fight whose outcome is dictated by the CMDRs' combat skill and choices made during that combat...
The idea in the OP isn't an engineering effect...

Don't like the amount of handwaivium this introduces. So if I have 3 shield boosters, why can't I mount them so that the blind spots don't overlap?

There is an easier solution to reduce the shield meta.

- Get rid of shield boosters
- Move all scanners to the now freed up utility slots.
- Restrict SCBs to military slots.

Done. You're welcome FDEV, no financial compensation needed.
The gap is directly above the physical booster. The utility mounts (and thus boosters) don't overlap, so neither does their coverage. I see 0 hand wavium.
 
The previous beta, that increased hull hardness of big ships while addressing shield imbalance, was a great way to address the issue of dropped shields on big ships, and probably should come back if booster changes are ever made. That change was the start of making big ships the unkillable powerhouses you so clearly want them to be. As someone who likes flying and fighting in his Corvette and T-10, it would be cool to get that kind of power back.

The Hull Hardness buff to 210 would not help enough to make much difference, against APV of 100.

So, although I welcome the news, a lot will have to be considered.


Truesilver Words Vs Corlas.

I don't agree with most of the TrueSilver Ideas since he likes to kabom things easy too, but there you see a expert PVP talking about the "Hull hardness" that you claim that hardness "was the start of making big ships the unkillable powerhouses".
Hardness means nothing.
Big ships widouth big shields mean nothing and are useless.
 
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You're basically making the point here. You say that a big ship will be in trouble when fighting several enemies. You describe that two can be tough when their pilots are perfect, if they are not, it requires more than two to get the big ship into trouble. But why should a big ship reliably beat more than one enemy? Just because it's bigger?

It's not the size that matters, it's the cost. Obviously a more expensive ship should outperform a cheaper ship, just like how an E-rated ship performs worse than an A-rated one.

The real issue is that there's currently no high-end small ships in the game, as even the Vulture costs less than just a stripped down Anaconda hull. If FD were to add in high-end components for smaller sizes so that someone has the option of spending 300+ million credits on their little ship, then we can begin to discuss balance between big and small ships.

Speaking of cost vs cost balance, I wonder how an A-rated Vulture would fare against an E-rated Clipper when both are properly engineered? They are pretty similar in terms of overall price, but I'd suspect that the Vulture would have quite a significant advantage.
 
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