Would you prefer C&P back how it was?

[ALGOMATIC]

Sure it does, because direct PvP has absolutely zero value to BGS states. FD have included PvE counters to every PvE action. To me, that says something. To me that says 'Fight your battles indirectly'. Your hammer isn't going to get that bolt through that piece of crystal. There are almost no nails out there. Stop making hammers. Stop expecting hammers to solve... well anything.

If PvP has no value in BGS war why on earth many player factions and PP players specifically undermine in SOLO to avoid opposition?
Try and fly a shieldless trader in open vs doing it in SOLO.

 

[StiTch]

You can say it's logical, you can say the info is out there, you can say it was a good faith attempt to solve a problem, you can say what you like. The fact is the new C&P is ridiculously over complicated, fussy and has definitely caused more inconvenience to players playing legally but making the occasional mistake, than it has to the griefers.

What else is new?

This is basically every C&P update we have had summed up.

 

[Lateralus]

On behalf of all criminal players who were shouted down for raising concerns before the update:

[video=youtube;Yi0uX2sZuFg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi0uX2sZuFg[/video]

 

[cmdr underhill]

I guess I need more time with the new system before I can say anything definitive. In principle, I like the new system. A lot. And I'm 100% OK with the C&P system making PVE activities more dangerous, convoluted, difficult, or consequential. But there are legibility issues right now which are preventing the C&P outcomes from feeling intuitive or predictable, and I think a lot of the mission systems ar going to need a re-think in order for them to make sense in the context of the new C&P system. I hope Frontier will do the necessary work to follow through on all of this and will take the time and effort necessary to make this whole complex system of interactions into something that flows. I am fearful that they may not do this and will abandon the project after a few more minor tweaks; but I really believe the the core of the new system is good and worthy of follow-through.

C&P is always going to be complicated. I agree though, that we are way too early in this version to say scrap it again. First we need to get the bugs fixed, and see what it can do when it's really balanced.

 

[Powderpanic]

On behalf of all criminal players who were shouted down for raising concerns before the update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi0uX2sZuFg

And they thought it was us crying, worried it would make ganking players harder

 

[m0rl0ck]

You can say it's logical, you can say the info is out there, you can say it was a good faith attempt to solve a problem, you can say what you like. The fact is the new C&P is ridiculously over complicated, fussy and has definitely caused more inconvenience to players playing legally but making the occasional mistake, than it has to the griefers.

Therefore I propose a rollback and looking at it again in a future update. Putting the bounty on the ships is so counter intuitive for one thing.

Solutions have to be simple, guys, new players are really going to struggle with the convolution, it took me some time to really understand what I need to do when something happens now (I do now, but it wasn't exactly clear, and I had to go forum trawling to find the info) and nobody is sure if their bounties, or the game's behaviour are bugs, because sometimes it seems so illogical or far removed from what it 'was', that we question if it can be intended, and of course sometimes it is bugs because we are in a fresh release.

Then there's the problems that several missions make you wanted by necessity. Who would do these now?

I know this is piddling into the wind, but I want to express that whatever 'this' is, it wasn't the right step to deal with griefing or make C&P more effective, fair or fun.

ALL THAT NEEDED DOING was some estra stuff as regards player vs player interactions. Not a change to the whole fundamental system.

The new system seems simpler than the old to me. Allowing non-serious fines and bounties to be paid off right away is much easier than the old system. Bounty hunters following you around for a 200cr fine was just ridiculous and the old system, there was no real distinction between minor offenses and murder.

 

[cmdr underhill]

For now, there is still no effective difference between 200cr for stray fire and murder.

 

[jasonbarron]

The system itself and the designers of it have lost sight of why people play this game; to have fun.

 

[m0rl0ck]

Go there, and again as I approach station get hailed and told to leave immediately or blah blah, blow me.. So I request docking privs anyway, and they say come on in, sit me down give me a cuppa, chocolate digestive and let me pay off my 800cr.

.

I experienced the same thing a couple of nights ago. A satation warning me off then when i requested docking they gave me pad permission. Must be a bug of some kind.

Other than that i think the new system is way simpler. If you do something against the code, pay the fine at an IF. If you do something serious, wait, then pay it off at an IF.

 

[Mohrgan]

For now, there is still no effective difference between 200cr for stray fire and murder.

And, neither did the old system. Going back wouldn't cure that ill.

 

[Roybe]

For now, there is still no effective difference between 200cr for stray fire and murder.

Sure there is...stray fire can be paid off immediately, murder you have to wait two hours before you pay it off.

And, no, I don't want to go back...consequences are good.

 

[[VR] scipio_77]

Having to spend 10-15 minutes due to minor mistakes is a nuisance.

That a ship is wanted for crimes and not the pilot is abusable in PvE (throwaway ships can be abused in a variety of missions and mat gathering) and makes little sense, given that they know who flies the ships.

 

[m0rl0ck]

Then there's the problems that several missions make you wanted by necessity. Who would do these now?

Me. My current routine with skimmer and scan missions is to stop off on the way back at an IF located in the systems where i most often park my ships. Its simple its easy and way better that having the new fines added to an already huge total that i cant pay off, as in the old system
Paying the IF after such missions is just the cost of doing business.

Actually the only thing i miss about the old system is popping into normal space with a wanted tag in my FDL and watching all the human piloted sideys dissappear.

 

[cmdr underhill]

And, neither did the old system. Going back wouldn't cure that ill.

Agreed, can't rep. Take some virtual?

 

[Jukelo]

Having to spend 10-15 minutes due to minor mistakes is a nuisance.

That a ship is wanted for crimes and not the pilot is abusable in PvE (throwaway ships can be abused in a variety of missions and mat gathering) and makes little sense, given that they know who flies the ships.

Previously you could commit any crime in any ship and get rid of the bounty by dying in a throaway ship like a sidewinder.
At least now you if you want to use a throaway ship to clear a bounty, you also have to commit the crime in that ship.

 

[Roybe]

The system itself and the designers of it have lost sight of why people play this game; to have fun.

Go play NMS for fun....this 'game' is about life!

 

[Mohrgan]

Go play NMS for fun....this 'game' is about life!

Oddly enough, fun is pretty subjective. When someone complains of lack of fun, it's just a personal thing.

 

[the source 0179]

Not true.

Being forced to switch ship = consequence, esp if it's your main/best engineered ship.
Switch back, wanted = consequence, now you cannot do certain things and you will be attacked in this ship.
If you try and sell a hot ship you get reduced CR for it = consequence.

There is (I believe) no way to avoid both paying for or suffering from being wanted as a result of a bounty.

The suicidewinder trick used to clear all bounties from the CMDR, making those unclaimed by the bounty claimant into legacy fines .. which no-one ever paid off.


Why? (gameplay or lore reason?)

If the former, it solves the suicidewinder issue quite nicely, and introduces those consequences listed above. So, it seems quite a good mechanic for the game.

If the latter, it's how speed camera fines operate today (IRL). They are attached to the car/the owner of the car. In Elite you are the owner of the ship, and as it's the ship that can be identified as having committed the crime, so its the ship that gets identified as being wanted, and it's the ship that gets destroyed. But, ultimately, it's the CMDR who owns the ship that pays the bounties. So, seems pretty close to a real life example to me, so it makes sense from a lore perspective.

Exactly a speeding fine is locked to the owner of the car. So swapping cars or selling the car doesn't make it go away. In reality the fine is on the owner not the car. The car is just used to find who the owner is. And to where the fine needs to go. Here in Australia if you dont pay the fine as an owner for an extended amount of time then they deregister the car and put a lock on it so you cant register the car until the fine is paid by the owner because the owner has the fine. They just use the car as a way of getting the fine paid. And for instance when cops look up car details it shows the owner of the car and all warrants,fines etc of the owner not the car. Swapping cars doesnt change that.
In elite we cant borrow or rent ships so all our ships are registered to the owner so you can't run from bounties and fines. Now you swap ship or buy a new ship and magically your free to do what ever you want again. So if you never get back in the ship that has a bounty on it your free forever. That is not realistic. Or a good game mechanic.

As for suicidewinder. That was a easy fix. Have it so you have to pay the bounty rather than just get blown up. When you do get blown up you get sent to the detention centre like now and pay the bounty and rebuy. When security come after you they give you an option in the message tab. Eg you are wanted and have a bounty on you for 8000cr pay now or be destroyed. Tab pay bounty or ignore. If they really wanted they could make it so the security forces have ship disability weapon eg a tazer for ships.

And for gankers have it so if you fly into another ship which is stronger and blows your ship up its your fault which means no wanted or bounty on the ship that you flew into. Just on you.

All they had to do was close the loopholes. The cheaters used.

And also npcs should be held accountable to. If we get done for a small amount of friendly fire then they should too. The amount of times I'm leaving a station under 100ms on the green side of the slot and an npc doing over 100ms runs into me on my side of the slot i get the fine not the npc. Nothing about c n p old or new is realistic or balanced. Again instead of fixing what needs to be fixed they overhaul the entire system and make it more of a grind or create other problems.

 

[[VR] scipio_77]

Previously you could commit any crime in any ship and get rid of the bounty by dying in a throaway ship like a sidewinder.
At least now you if you want to use a throaway ship to clear a bounty, you also have to commit the crime in that ship.

Sure, but that doesn't change that throwaway ships are abusable now.

And still, I think if the authorities find that some Cobra suddenly starts killing traders and scooping up the leftovers - they'd probably focus on finding the pilot, not the ship.

I get the idea of punishing ganking in hugely overprized and over-engineered vessels versus fresh ships, a variant of the conondrum of open world PvP that every MMO struggles with. But I feel that this is a price you pay for the balance perspective. In Elite you can get immensely powerful ships and huge differences in power. When they want that in the game, they also have to let it play out. And I'm not saying that because I have such a hugely overpowered ship, because I don't.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

All it needs is a little ingame help database to explain people how it works. Bu this is missing.