Would you prefer C&P back how it was?

[Ouberos]

hammers can't fix falling plaster.

Although I agree with your post in the main I think it's important to remember that if your plaster is falling off the first step in repairing will be to remove the rest of the effected area. For which you will most certainly need a hammer.

Also on an unrelated note I once had the displeasure of working with a fellow who used a drill to hammer in a screw.

I'm not sure how he would fit into your metaphor.

 

[Cosmo]

I like the new C&P. Maybe it needs a few tweaks.

 

[Brrokk]

I like the new C&P. Maybe it needs a few tweaks.

I like it too. I'm wondering if the complaints we're seeing are because it's actually fulfilling its objective, of making some kinds of emergent gameplay have more consequences.

 

[nrage]

This won't work because of player factions and BGS. It will lead to people going into the base of an opposing player faction, running endless missions that trash their BGS, and taunting in local.

Happens today, minus the taunting in local. Instead, they taunt on open forums.

People taking shieldless cutters to the CG, safe in the knowledge they don't even have to take the most perfunctory safety measures.

Did you read what I wrote? Seems like not.. People already do this, in solo. If, as I suggest, the CG was open-only, they would not be able to.

A faction getting a CG, and running the whole thing with the PvP tag disabled, avoiding anyone who wishes to counter.

Happens today, in "solo".

People running UAs in open, with their magic, unkillable, unshielded ship. People running powerplay materials to invade an enemy system, laughing at all attempts to intercept their shipments.

Happens today, in "solo".

I don't think any of the points you've raised above actually change, in any substantial way, if we have a PvP on/off flag. But, for a reasonable portion of the player base Open would become a viable option again, so I think adding it is a NET gain for the game as a whole. If I was in charge, I'd be seriously considering adding it.

I maintain that solo and PG should be cut off from effecting BGS in any way, then people can enjoy their training wheels galaxy in Mobius without being able to conduct attacks from safety.

That's another option, but I can't ever see Frontier doing it. Elite wasn't really ever intended as a PvP environment, it was intended as a co-op environment. You can tell this is the case by the complete lack of forethought into PvP and griefing that was done prior to launch. You could argue that these things are secondary concerns and they always intended to add/address them but I don't buy it. Look at Star Citizen, clearly PvP focused, the design team has clearly been told to focus on PvP and to consider/counter all the jerk things players will inevitably attempt to do to each other for giggles.

Back to Elite.. Enhancing the game for PvP focused players can/should be done separately by adding PvP content. That said, Frontier have tried to do this twice! with CQC and Powerplay .. and, unfortunately, it has to be said that they have failed both times. I like CQC, and I cannot explain why it doesn't have more players. Perhaps this is due to the early bugs in matchmaking, but I suspect it has more to do with the fact that it doesn't advance/tie in to the main game, and many players, myself included, are invested in the progress of our main game/character. IMO, Powerplay should have been restricted to Open play from day 1, and been a much simpler system that was built upon piece by piece.

I know how to, and have done BGS. None of your arguments make it ok to give players yet another option to wage a shadow war.

It's not "another option" because it's functionally "the same option" as "solo". In other words, it makes no difference whether players do these things in "solo" or in "open" with PvP off.

 

[nrage]

For now, there is still no effective difference between 200cr for stray fire and murder.

Wot?!

Fine = payable at the station under "contacts".

Bounty = payable to Interstellar Factor in anarchy/lawless system with +X% added.

Murder = as bounty but also +1 notoriety.

Clearly the same!

 

[Cervantes01]

I don't really understand it, I got a few bounties in my adder the other day just for lols, I've since changed ships and the adder shows as wanted which I kind of get, but what happens if I simply don't use that ship anymore or sell it?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

That's really my biggest concern about the new C&P; it seems like FDev have spent so much time trying to fix the various existing "loopholes" that they've ended-up with a bunch of arbitrary "rules" rather than any kind of actual system.

If it needs more than a paragraph to explain it, it probably needs throwing away and re-doing.

Unfortunately like many of their expansions.

- Engineering is getting better
- Powerplay is still a mess
- Crime and Punishment got a LOT of good input from players but hardly anything got used.

The current C&P is basically an anti-griefing system at it's core since there is no comprehensive system linked to actual criminal gameplay, smuggling, anarchy systems or a pilots reputation in the long run.

C&P is a lot better than before but it could become a LOT more interesting.

 

[GunnerBill]

OP No, but they really, really need to raise the limits on gaining bounties or raise the limit of what can be paid in system.

 

[nrage]

Exactly a speeding fine is locked to the owner of the car. So swapping cars or selling the car doesn't make it go away.

Correct, but this matches Elite exactly. Swapping the ship doesn't make the bounty "go away", but it does mean you won't be stopped and forced to pay it - just like with the car. Likewise, trying to sell a ship/car with a fine attached will result in you having to pay that fine first (unless the buyer forgets to run a check). So, this seems to track nicely.

In reality the fine is on the owner not the car. The car is just used to find who the owner is. And to where the fine needs to go.

Yep. It's been described in a simpler form, but Elite is basically doing exactly this with one caveat (below).

And for instance when cops look up car details it shows the owner of the car and all warrants,fines etc of the owner not the car. Swapping cars doesnt change that.

True, and this is the one main difference between RL and Elite. But, I would argue this difference is a positive one made for gameplay reasons. Besides which, why assume a pirate has purchased their two ships under the same name and not an alias, or that they don't have some system to anonymise themselves somewhat (as it clearly does for station services under anonymous protocols).

So if you never get back in the ship that has a bounty on it your free forever. That is not realistic.

True, but how likely is this to happen for any reasonably priced ship, basically never I reckon. Sure, you could buy a cheap throwaway ship and do some dodgy missions but 1) that ship might no be up to the task, or only capable of low ranked/paying missions and 2) you still lose the value of the ship and any/all upgraded internals. So, I simply don't think it's a fun or viable tactic, in short it's "not a problem" that needs to be addressed. Gameplay beats realism in edge cases like this.

 

[nrage]

I don't really understand it, I got a few bounties in my adder the other day just for lols, I've since changed ships and the adder shows as wanted which I kind of get, but what happens if I simply don't use that ship anymore or sell it?

If you never use the ship again, you never pay the bounties attached to it.

If you sell it, you lose some of the value in the sale due to the bounties - try it and see.

I'd be interested to know the value of the bounties and the loss in CR on the sale, to see how close they are in value to each other.

I suspect, that for small cheap ships these don't necessarily track all that well. But, I would argue that this edge case doesn't matter all that much. Specifically, if you can afford a "throwaway" ship like this then that ship is likely way less effective than your main ship, capable of doing far less (perhaps incapable of doing the higher ranked missions you're presented with) and therefore, basically, not all that useful. Whereas, if you get those bounties on your primary ship, the sales penalty will outstrip the bounties and it's more cost effective to use the interstellar factor to clear them.

I suspect, instead of buying a throwaway ship, those planning on illegal activities will have two roughly balanced ships, one for illegal activity, and which they keep clean. Swapping between them as required, and trying really hard not to get caught in the "hot ship". This seems, to me, to be adding a lot of depth to what was before quite a shallow mechanic (illegal jobs were basically no different to the legal ones).

 

[Cervantes01]

If you never use the ship again, you never pay the bounties attached to it.

If you sell it, you lose some of the value in the sale due to the bounties - try it and see.

I'd be interested to know the value of the bounties and the loss in CR on the sale, to see how close they are in value to each other.

I suspect, that for small cheap ships these don't necessarily track all that well. But, I would argue that this edge case doesn't matter all that much. Specifically, if you can afford a "throwaway" ship like this then that ship is likely way less effective than your main ship, capable of doing far less (perhaps incapable of doing the higher ranked missions you're presented with) and therefore, basically, not all that useful. Whereas, if you get those bounties on your primary ship, the sales penalty will outstrip the bounties and it's more cost effective to use the interstellar factor to clear them.

I suspect, instead of buying a throwaway ship, those planning on illegal activities will have two roughly balanced ships, one for illegal activity, and which they keep clean. Swapping between them as required, and trying really hard not to get caught in the "hot ship". This seems, to me, to be adding a lot of depth to what was before quite a shallow mechanic (illegal jobs were basically no different to the legal ones).

Good point, thanks for helping me out with that, I'll take the adder into a res where I'm wanted and let it die in a blaze of glory I think

 

[ALGOMATIC]

If you never use the ship again, you never pay the bounties attached to it.

If you sell it, you lose some of the value in the sale due to the bounties - try it and see.

I'd be interested to know the value of the bounties and the loss in CR on the sale, to see how close they are in value to each other.

I suspect, that for small cheap ships these don't necessarily track all that well. But, I would argue that this edge case doesn't matter all that much. Specifically, if you can afford a "throwaway" ship like this then that ship is likely way less effective than your main ship, capable of doing far less (perhaps incapable of doing the higher ranked missions you're presented with) and therefore, basically, not all that useful. Whereas, if you get those bounties on your primary ship, the sales penalty will outstrip the bounties and it's more cost effective to use the interstellar factor to clear them.

I suspect, instead of buying a throwaway ship, those planning on illegal activities will have two roughly balanced ships, one for illegal activity, and which they keep clean. Swapping between them as required, and trying really hard not to get caught in the "hot ship". This seems, to me, to be adding a lot of depth to what was before quite a shallow mechanic (illegal jobs were basically no different to the legal ones).

With the latest cash cow a corvette will also be a throw away ship.

 

[buttercup]

Just change the silly bounties (e.g. shooting at a pirate lord who's wanted first etc.) to a fine as it was previously and not a Bounty that can be paid on site.

 

[Jukelo]

Just change the silly bounties (e.g. shooting at a pirate lord who's wanted first etc.) to a fine as it was previously and not a Bounty that can be paid on site.

That hasn't changed, shooting at a wanted ship before you scanned it always gave you a bounty. There's no need to change it either as it's your own mistake and part of what little skill floor exists for bounty hunting.