Something I'd like to say to those complaining about the new engineer system.

[Bomba Luigi]

Why convert stuff if you were happy with what you had and not bothered by getting higher end mods?

Can't hurt to test it, I could have been wrong about my assumption of the new system after all (I'm not someone who thinks I'm always right ^^ )

If that's the case then it shouldn't bother you slowly upgrading when its convenient. You should be happy with Grade 1s and 2s then.

In some cases I am yes, which I already said and had some praise for the new system.

 

[sollisb]

I've seen this comment quite a lot.

"I prefer the old system because I was happy to settle for a mid-range roll. New system means I have to grind."

Right, I'm going to be blunt.

This quote is silly. It makes no sense. None at all.

In the old system, yes, it's true. You could technically get a god roll on the first attempt. Great, cool. But you know what else could happen in the old system? You could get a bottom 1% roll every time. RNG meant that was possible. Indeed, I do have one friend who made several hundred G5 rolls. They all sucked. He got no gain whatsoever.

Here's the thing about the new system. Here's why it is better, even for those happy with "mid-range" rolls.

Yes, the minimum number of rolls needed to progress has increased. I'm not denying this, as it is irrefutable fact. However! The maximum amount of rolls to achieve the absolute best result has, on average, decreased by a literally immeasurable margin. What used to take on average a few hundred rolls... Now takes at most twenty. And that's on really bad RNG progression. So far, my G5 mods have taken between 8-12.

Can someone please explain to me, how on earth 20 rolls of guaranteed progression is worse than several hundred rolls that are each worse than the last? It absolutely boggles the mind.

So yes. I'm sorry folks. You're never going to get to experience that god roll on attempt #1. You will have to do some work. But overall, the "grind" has been reduced massively.

Here's the thing. Nobody is really happy with "mid-range". We all want "the best" at heart. We all want that extra 2m/s, that extra 0.13ly. And now, getting those stats is a very reasonable, and realistic goal for even the most casual players.

Nobody has lost anything with the new system. Nobody. But instead, everyone has gained. Massively. The problem is, some people seem to not be able to accept this.

One final point. "I want mid-range only."

I think Frontier wants you all to get top results now. Winter is coming. I think you'll need the engineering soon. I think PvE is going to get very interesting, thanks to Thargoids.

I think in of of itself, the main idea behind it is awesome. The having to 'learn' the blueprints from 1-5 for each same type modules is just ridiculous. If I know how to do G3 Extended FD then I know it for all FSDs.. It's a bit like a mechanic having to to go for training to clear a carburettor every time he's asked to clear one.

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

What needs to change (in my view):
Less waste of materials at G5, reduce the number of rolls to get the max. A little. 11 rolls to max out g5 wastes 33 materials. That's a lot of time invested just straight down the toilet. Take the RNG out of progression. There's enough RNG in finding the stuff in the first place.
Tweak the rates at material traders so they're not so userous. If I take 70 odd MEF to the trader I should be able to trade 20 of them for more than 3 DMWE!
Then I'm happy with the new engineers even though I still hate 1-5ing every module.

 

[JohnRoberts]

or most efficent way of doing this and that is not something I ever think about.

Dude, before you were saying that the new system "Needs more rolls, more diffrent mats and that is just a lot more grind at the end of the day.". You were exactly complaining that the new system was less time efficient, and when I point out that, like-for-like, its probably a better system, suddenly you don't care anymore?

In regards to the randomness of the old system, you are of course entitled to your views, but the community spoke on this one: most people wanted rid of the slot machine.

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

I think in of of itself, the main idea behind it is awesome. The having to 'learn' the blueprints from 1-5 for each same type modules is just ridiculous. If I know how to do G3 Extended FD then I know it for all FSDs.. It's a bit like a mechanic having to to go for training to clear a carburettor every time he's asked to clear one.

On the note of mechanics, my brother (who's a mechanic) offered this insight (which I had to have him write down, I'm no good with cars myself. x.x):

You get a brand-new older car you want to make faster. So start with basics...first headers and dual exhaust (G1). Then (on older cars) remove the belt-driven fan and replace it with an electric one (G2). Then polish the insides of the intake manifold for smoother airflow (G3)...each step adds more power, at cost of fuel efficiency and some extra wear, of course.

Then you get a different car. You want it to be fast too. Which means...doing the same steps on THIS engine, because what you did on the old first has no bearing.

Each grade on a module is a step in the process of adding all the modifications, one at a time, and each roll within the grade a "tuning" stage to maximize the performance of that particular modification or add-on.

Works the same way with lightweight modifications. First you remove unnecessary bits. Then replace a heavy piece with a lightweight replacement. Then replace a heavy steel frame-bit with an aluminum one (G3)...and so on and so forth.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

On the note of mechanics, my brother (who's a mechanic) offered this insight (which I had to have him write down, I'm no good with cars myself. x.x):

You get a brand-new older car you want to make faster. So start with basics...first headers and dual exhaust (G1). Then (on older cars) remove the belt-driven fan and replace it with an electric one (G2). Then polish the insides of the intake manifold for smoother airflow (G3)...each step adds more power, at cost of fuel efficiency and some extra wear, of course.

Then you get a different car. You want it to be fast too. Which means...doing the same steps on THIS engine, because what you did on the old first has no bearing.

Each grade on a module is a step in the process of adding all the modifications, one at a time, and each roll within the grade a "tuning" stage to maximize the performance of that particular modification or add-on.

Works the same way with lightweight modifications. First you remove unnecessary bits. Then replace a heavy piece with a lightweight replacement. Then replace a heavy steel frame-bit with an aluminum one (G3)...and so on and so forth.

Very good analogy.

 

[Hellakitty]

On the note of mechanics, my brother (who's a mechanic) offered this insight (which I had to have him write down, I'm no good with cars myself. x.x):

You get a brand-new older car you want to make faster. So start with basics...first headers and dual exhaust (G1). Then (on older cars) remove the belt-driven fan and replace it with an electric one (G2). Then polish the insides of the intake manifold for smoother airflow (G3)...each step adds more power, at cost of fuel efficiency and some extra wear, of course.

Then you get a different car. You want it to be fast too. Which means...doing the same steps on THIS engine, because what you did on the old first has no bearing.

Each grade on a module is a step in the process of adding all the modifications, one at a time, and each roll within the grade a "tuning" stage to maximize the performance of that particular modification or add-on.

Works the same way with lightweight modifications. First you remove unnecessary bits. Then replace a heavy piece with a lightweight replacement. Then replace a heavy steel frame-bit with an aluminum one (G3)...and so on and so forth.

Or you just pay for an engine swap.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

On the note of mechanics, my brother (who's a mechanic) offered this insight (which I had to have him write down, I'm no good with cars myself. x.x):

You get a brand-new older car you want to make faster. So start with basics...first headers and dual exhaust (G1). Then (on older cars) remove the belt-driven fan and replace it with an electric one (G2). Then polish the insides of the intake manifold for smoother airflow (G3)...each step adds more power, at cost of fuel efficiency and some extra wear, of course.

Then you get a different car. You want it to be fast too. Which means...doing the same steps on THIS engine, because what you did on the old first has no bearing.

Each grade on a module is a step in the process of adding all the modifications, one at a time, and each roll within the grade a "tuning" stage to maximize the performance of that particular modification or add-on.

Works the same way with lightweight modifications. First you remove unnecessary bits. Then replace a heavy piece with a lightweight replacement. Then replace a heavy steel frame-bit with an aluminum one (G3)...and so on and so forth.

That is how I look at it. I would have preferred a better system, but what I wanted would have meant completely removing what was there and everybodys mods being reverted to stock, which people wouldn't be happy with (wouldn't have bothered me though).

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Very good analogy.

Forgot to add, and just like with ED engineering, you can decide at any point "that's enough" because it's fast enough for your liking, or you can go full-on hobby with it and see just how fast you can get that car to go. (The latter of which I'll leave for my brother to do in RL, because 140mph in the middle of 2nd gear out of four is too fast for me.)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Or you just pay for an engine swap.

What do you think the Grade A, B, C, D, E engines are.

 

[Hellakitty]

What do you think the Grade A, B, C, D, E engines are.

Going from E to A is like asking a workshop for an LS swap.

Going from A to AxG5 is like going to to a specialist workshop and asking for a race-spec supercharged LS swap.

One costs a moderate amount, and gives good performance gains.

The other costs a huge amount, and gives the very best performance gains.

Neither of them require you to run around gathering bits of metal and other useless trinkets that get magically squished into an engine.

You pays your money, you gets your stuff.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Or you just pay for an engine swap.

Yes, and now you have a stock A-rated thruster. It can be tuned further.

Going from E to A is like asking a workshop for an LS swap.

Going from A to AxG5 is like going to to a specialist workshop and asking for a race-spec supercharged LS swap.

One costs a moderate amount, and gives good performance gains.

The other costs a huge amount, and gives the very best performance gains.

Neither of them require you to run around gathering bits of metal and other useless trinkets that get magically squished into an engine.

You pays your money, you gets your stuff.

Materials are a currency.

 

[Hellakitty]

Yes, and now you have a stock A-rated thruster. It can be tuned further.



Materials are a currency.

Real-world analogues work both ways though, don't they?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Going from E to A is like asking a workshop for an LS swap.

Going from A to AxG5 is like going to to a specialist workshop and asking for a race-spec supercharged LS swap.

One costs a moderate amount, and gives good performance gains.

The other costs a huge amount, and gives the very best performance gains.

Neither of them require you to run around gathering bits of metal and other useless trinkets that get magically squished into an engine.

You pays your money, you gets your stuff.

You are talking about nowadays world. We have no idea what it will be like in a few thousand years.

It's like people calling stuff magic potions and magic healing lasers. Everything looks like magic when you don't understand how it works.

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Real-world analogues work both ways though, don't they?

Yes they do. In ED they're called Enhanced Performance Thrusters (at Farseer's place, if anyone needed to know) sold at quite the premium markup, for the smaller vessels. In RL, it's generally a bit difficult to find pre-modded engines for general sale for tractor trailers and battleships, though.

 

[Hellakitty]

You are talking about nowadays world. We have no idea what it will be like in a few thousand years.

It's like people calling stuff magic potions and magic healing lasers. Everything looks like magic when you don't understand how it works.

Like I said. Real-world analogues work both ways.

Someone posts a real-world analogue of how they think the engineers work, and everyone nods their heads and say uh huh that's right.

A different, but equally legitimate analogue of how the engineers work, and oh no that's just you talking about today's world, we don't know what it'll be like in a thousand years.

 

[DarthRavadge]

The new system is vastly improved with the exception of no more over-rolls. That was the only thing that made ships statistically different. But thanks to the @#$%^&*@ PvP community that can't handle a ship with .5% more damage we now all have xerox copies of our modules. "Balancing! Whaaaa! I got killed by someone with god rolls!" B.S.... If a couple extra % means the game is unbalanced I suggest you grind a few hours of GIT GUD. The crybabies got their way though. Honestly there is no point in the engineering system now. It's just a time sink. They should have just sold fully upgraded pieces as S class modules. Class 4 Overcharged Multi = 10m, comes in several flavors depending on desired experimental effect.

 

[Hellakitty]

Yes they do. In ED they're called Enhanced Performance Thrusters (at Farseer's place, if anyone needed to know) sold at quite the premium markup, for the smaller vessels. In RL, it's generally a bit difficult to find pre-modded engines for general sale for tractor trailers and battleships, though.

They go up to 3A, and are only applicable for racing vehicles. I know, I have them on my iCourier that does god knows how many over 800m/s now.

So, back to real-life analogues. Why is it that one version is absolutely fine but another version isn't?

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Dude, before you were saying that the new system "Needs more rolls, more diffrent mats and that is just a lot more grind at the end of the day.". You were exactly complaining that the new system was less time efficient, and when I point out that, like-for-like, its probably a better system, suddenly you don't care anymore?

In regards to the randomness of the old system, you are of course entitled to your views, but the community spoke on this one: most people wanted rid of the slot machine.

Thats not about efficency, its about spending less time with collecting mats and stuff and more time doing fun stuff. Well, I guess it is effiecency of fun but what I was talking about was efficency in terms of stats of modules. You can talk about stats of mods all day I won't care about that.

I know, I'm not trying to claim I'm right and you are wrong, I don't want FD to change it back since I know I'm in the minority. Its just about preferences, the Op said he does not understand why some people like the old system better and I tried to explain that (I may not do a good job at it but thats what I try).

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

They go up to 3A, and are only applicable for racing vehicles. I know, I have them on my iCourier that does god knows how many over 800m/s now.

So, back to real-life analogues. Why is it that one version is absolutely fine but another version isn't?

Not sure what you're asking. Just like in RL, and just like you said yourself, packaged performance engines that exceed stock specifications can be pre-bought for racing vehicles. Far as I know, they don't make them for big cargo vessels, or military ones, in RL, land or sea. You can get the better engines from factory (represented by grades D to A) but there's limits on what's considered reliable/acceptable by military and corporations in terms of longevity of the engine and possible detriments. When a commander goes to some hermit to get the engine tweaked on their battleship (Corvette) or cargo plane (T9) they're taking risks that the detriments won't bite them in the butt later.