Punished because npc's are stupid

Ashnak

Ashnak
XW_Ziggy said:
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but I'm kind of stunned that FDev have been so incompetent when working out which party is to blame in a ramming incident.
If two ships collide, the one going the fastest is to blame, and the one going slower is the victim.
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Won't work, I'm afraid. If you're going 98 m/s in your Cutter/Type-9/Type-10/..., and someone on purpose crosses your path in a shieldless, downgraded sidewinder, going 97 m/s, coming up from below, you would receive the murder bounty (and notoriety) under this proposal.

XW_Ziggy said:
correctly identifying the criminal and the victim is the absolutely vital first step that cannot, under any circumstances be flawed
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Fully agree here. However, doing this in a failsafe and automated way, simply from the vectors of the two involved parties, is somewhere between difficult and, I'm afraid, impossible.
 

CMDR ANCALAGON

C
XW_Ziggy said:
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but I'm kind of stunned that FDev have been so incompetent when working out which party is to blame in a ramming incident.
If two ships collide, the one going the fastest is to blame, and the one going slower is the victim.

Getting rammed by feds/security that boost into you whilst scanning you is bad enough. Chances are you were in the galaxy map trying to plot a course and it interrupted that and dumped you back to the cockpit view again, with a welcoming fine.

It was a really really frickin' tiresome bug but the fact that a player got fined for an NPC mistake should have raised red flags. Seriously, the problem wasn't just the ramming, it was the apportioning of blame to the wrong party.

Let's not beat about the bush here - correctly identifying the criminal and the victim is the absolutely vital first step that cannot, under any circumstances be flawed if you want a working C&P system; As always, it soulds like FDev are trying to run before they can walk and walking will be patched in via 500 proudly-announced bugfixes in 2-3 rant-filled, player-angering years from now ;)
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Of course, all of this is a bit moot if ramming wasn't a factor, as is likely the case.
 

Deleted member 115407

D
Rubbernuke said:
"Never pee in your own bathwater" as the saying goes. If there is a chance to screw up do BH elsewhere or use smart rounds (never tried but should avoid this happening).
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What if I need to warm it up?
 

Wizz15

W
So how does this all factor in with SLFs?

Because I too have been getting bounties (not even fines) for people I'm not engaging nor have had targeted. People seem pretty fast to jump to the conclusion that OP must have been careless, but AFAIK there is a bug related to hitting SLFs launched by your target getting you wanted.

Since 3.0 dropped I have not had a single fine for 'reckless firing' or whatever it's called, just bounties. I'm wondering if the fines are working at all.
 

DaveB

DaveB
OP collided with a damaged NPC who subsequently blew up. I think we can agree on that bit at least. They did collide, NPC did snuff it.

OP also says that to the best of their knowledge the collision was the only damage they inflicted on the NPC. OP has no reason to lie about that so this is indeed their genuine impression of the encounter.

Patch notes state that ramming bounties should not carry notoriety, but OP has acquired notoriety from this encounter. (again, OP has no reason to lie)

There are therefore only two possibilities:
1: OP is mistaken and the NPC did take some damage from his ship that was not purely a result of the collision. Quite possible since if the NPC collides with you directly in front of an operating hardpoint you may never see them but it's a bit hard not to shoot them if you were already firing at a more distant target that IS in your FOV. The OP could be forgiven in being mistaken in this way. If this is the case it was bad luck but the system is doing what it should and it's not likely to be a common occurrence so - other than the OPs understandable frustration - is not a big deal.
2: The OP is not mistaken and the system has incorrectly applied notoriety on a "ramming kill." This would be a bug. While it would have the potential to be an exceptionally irritating bug, it's not a game-breaker. It should, nonetheless, be fixed as promptly as FD can manage it.

In neither case, however, does the OPs situation justify the "usual suspects" using this experience as justification for the rather tired pro- and anti-C&P arguments. Neither of the two mutually exclusive explanations is in the least bit controversial, after all.
 

Cmdr Lucca1985

Cmdr Lucca1985
DaveB said:
OP collided with a damaged NPC who subsequently blew up. I think we can agree on that bit at least. They did collide, NPC did snuff it.

OP also says that to the best of their knowledge the collision was the only damage they inflicted on the NPC. OP has no reason to lie about that so this is indeed their genuine impression of the encounter.

Patch notes state that ramming bounties should not carry notoriety, but OP has acquired notoriety from this encounter. (again, OP has no reason to lie)

There are therefore only two possibilities:
1: OP is mistaken and the NPC did take some damage from his ship that was not purely a result of the collision. Quite possible since if the NPC collides with you directly in front of an operating hardpoint you may never see them but it's a bit hard not to shoot them if you were already firing at a more distant target that IS in your FOV. The OP could be forgiven in being mistaken in this way. If this is the case it was bad luck but the system is doing what it should and it's not likely to be a common occurrence so - other than the OPs understandable frustration - is not a big deal.
2: The OP is not mistaken and the system has incorrectly applied notoriety on a "ramming kill." This would be a bug. While it would have the potential to be an exceptionally irritating bug, it's not a game-breaker. It should, nonetheless, be fixed as promptly as FD can manage it.

In neither case, however, does the OPs situation justify the "usual suspects" using this experience as justification for the rather tired pro- and anti-C&P arguments. Neither of the two mutually exclusive explanations is in the least bit controversial, after all.
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I appreciate this.
 

sqzbox1

S
Personally I am not a fan of the whole new system. And attaching "bad stuff" to a ship and modules is a ridiculous over-complication in my view. I just wish FD would stop listening to the community - yes I know that is a bizarre thing to say - but really, the community is full of self-interested griefers so why on earth would you want to listen to them. Let them help in discovering bugs but don't ever listen to them for game design choices. A person commits a crime - not a ship. Stupid rule - just stupid. And having to go and search out the IF just for a miserable 200cr fine because of a slip of the finger? Again - just plain stupid. Now my game is on hold while I try and locate one of these damn things. Can I go with a faster ship once I find one - still have no idea where these are located. I just spent the last hour in the galaxy map searching but still haven't found one. Meantime my game is basically on hold. Stupid I say - stupid. And I am ranting because right now I am really annoyed. Mission timers are running out and I'm out looking for a goddammed IF!

And I would also like to add that there is likely to be a lot of people running out of fuel because of this. Luckily I have enough to get to another location where there is an IF but I reckon people who were anticipating getting back to the local station to refuel, and this one doesn't have an IF, are going to be in deep shtuck when they get a surpise bounty and have to to another system for an IF - and can't reach it. Stupid stupid mechanics.
 
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philngraves

philngraves
sqzbox1 said:
Personally I am not a fan of the whole new system. And attaching "bad stuff" to a ship and modules is a ridiculous over-complication in my view. I just wish FD would stop listening to the community - yes I know that is a bizarre thing to say - but really, the community is full of self-interested griefers so why on earth would you want to listen to them. Let them help in discovering bugs but don't ever listen to them for game design choices. A person commits a crime - not a ship. Stupid rule - just stupid. And having to go and search out the IF just for a miserable 200cr fine because of a slip of the finger? Again - just plain stupid. Now my game is on hold while I try and locate one of these damn things. Can I go with a faster ship once I find one - still have no idea where these are located. I just spent the last hour in the galaxy map searching but still haven't found one. Meantime my game is basically on hold. Stupid I say - stupid. And I am ranting because right now I am really annoyed. Mission timers are running out and I'm out looking for a goddammed IF!
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So griefers designed the current C&P system and that made you pack up and move to salt lake city... yeah, I'm sure all the big bad griefers got together at their quarterly murder council to decide that this new C&P system is what the wanted...
Truth is, griefers don't really care. Most of us are too damn busy killing you to care about demanding changes to the C&P system.

Old C&P, griefers made deds.
New C&P, griefers make more deds.

By the by, patch notes show that mission board still works with anonymous entry. Which would be that rant was largely just you digitally self-flagellating.
What have we learned?:D
 

sqzbox1

S
philngraves said:
So griefers designed the current C&P system and that made you pack up and move to salt lake city... yeah, I'm sure all the big bad griefers got together at their quarterly murder council to decide that this new C&P system is what the wanted...
Truth is, griefers don't really care. Most of us are too damn busy killing you to care about demanding changes to the C&P system.

Old C&P, griefers made deds.
New C&P, griefers make more deds.

By the by, patch notes show that mission board still works with anonymous entry. Which would be that rant was largely just you digitally self-flagellating.
What have we learned?:D
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What about fuel? I'm just salty because I wasted an hour trying to find an IF on the Galaxy map only to discover that it is not called Interstellar Factors but rather Broker Network. So inconsistent terminology is another problem. But griefers notwithstanding - I do not think it makes any sense to attach crime to a ship - look at all the unnecessary complications around wanted modules and transplanting and so on. And what sense does a "wanted module" make anyway?
 

philngraves

philngraves
sqzbox1 said:
What about fuel? I'm just salty because I wasted an hour trying to find an IF on the Galaxy map only to discover that it is not called Interstellar Factors but rather Broker Network. So inconsistent terminology is another problem. But griefers notwithstanding - I do not think it makes any sense to attach crime to a ship - look at all the unnecessary complications around wanted modules and transplanting and so on. And what sense does a "wanted module" make anyway?
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You do crime. Take ship that you did crime in to IF. Find IF by using new galaxy map filters. Fly wanted ship there and pay bounty. Mission board is still available even if you are in wanted ship.
Griefer comment aside, yeah... good ideas, but some serious tedium involved in implementation. Seems to hurt players who don't follow the game the most. Noobs are still getting started and I doubt the learning curve has really changed that much for them. It's the players that have a few dozen hours into the game that will likely be the most frustrated. They have overcome the initial learning curve only to find that the patch added another one and they are in the middle of it lol.
Best to sit down and read all the 3.0 beta patch notes up to the current build. Probably take a few hours to absorb it all, cuz it's that much crapola.

o7 CMDR.
 

sqzbox1

S
Maybe I am naive about all this but it just seems so easy to me. Fines are fines - you go and pay them. No need to "on jump" after the timer counts down or go to find an IF and hope you have the fuel to get there and so on - when time is up time is up - just go pay it. In fact why have the time component at all? You get a fine, this does not make you wanted - you just go pay it at your earliest convenience. Perhaps if it remains unpaid for a long time and it gets up in value then maybe a bounty is appropriate - but not until then. And bounties are on the people who commit crimes such as murder and these are the true crimes with all the punishment consequences. Simple.

Why should I be treated as a criminal, just because of a speeding fine or some such. That makes no sense.
 
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the source 0179

T
Hellakitty said:
I don't know where this 'crime and punishment was introduced solely to deter the gankers' mindset has come from. Wishful thinking, probably. It was never going to work.

Meaningful crime and punishment was brought in across the board, affecting all types of players. You've just fallen foul of the law so you do your time. It's how justice works.
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Its not meaningful if you get done for murder when you didnt murder a ship.
 
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