I'm curious, what do you class as 'playing the game'

[Ralph Vargr]

https://www.pcgamer.com/david-braben-on-arena-and-the-future-of-elite-dangerous/

"“There are missions out there I know almost no players have seen,” he says. “But we haven’t communicated it properly. There’s so much in there, and what we see from play patterns is that many do the same thing over and over. In that cycle, they just don’t get to see some of the variation. I’m not blaming players. We got it wrong.”Braben adds that even when he was playing the game in a certain way, he wasn’t seeing everything. “I wasn’t making friends with the minor factions. I was missing out on missions. And most players do that,” he says. “It’s a shame, because the missions actually drive you around the galaxy. But if you keep going back to the same place, you won’t venture very far. We need to change the way we communicate that.”

 

[verminstar]

From the moment ye get yer boring grown up stuff done and sorted and ye get to sit down with a nice fat smoke and a fresh pot o tea and start thinking about elite...thats when I start playing the game as it were.

The forum and leaving comments as the player verminstar...thats a part of playing the game and each and every single one of us do it because our real life worries and stresses dont matter in here...real lifes name aint on the party invite, so its taking a break right now.

Everything ye do from that moment when the game influences more of yer mental energy than real life does...thats playing the game.

Its like an old adage from an old game...why does all pvp have to start and end in pew pew? The answer being...whatever gave ye the idea that it did in the first place?

 

[Stigbob]

'Playing the game' for me is performing the tasks I need to perform in order to achieve whatever goal I'm currently trying to achieve, whether it be simply completing a mission, advancing in rank or increasing my reputation with (and the influence of) a minor faction, acquiring the credits needed for a ship or gear purchase, completing a particular engineering project, or whatever else I may have decided to do.

There are most definitely times when some of those, the last one in particular, will involve what any gamer would describe as 'grind' and saying that a player 'chooses to do it' is somewhat disingenuous when the 'choice' being made isn't actually to do the activity in question for it's own sake, it is to attempt to access the game content which is gated behind the activity concerned.

I don't agree with engineering being grindy anymore, now you can pin a blue print and complete the upgrade later all the pressures off to do it at the engineer, so there's no need to have everything before you go. So you can turn up with minimal stuff grab a low level upgrade apply whatever experimental you want on your visit then wander off back into the black to complete it later as and when the bits turn up. Add in the mat traders and the hardest part is jumping to the engineer in the first place.

Top quality grind reduction QOL improvement there.

In effect there is no meaningful choice whatsoever other than to completely disregard swathes of the game and I'm fairly sure that like most game developers, FDev don't actually want players to disregard chunks of the content that they have created.

I always disregard huge chunks of games, in ED I've never flown most of the freighters or imperial ships. As I'm not doing the rank and I find trade grindy. I've never fought the Thargoids but I do buzz by them until they attack just to see if I can escape.

So in short no, the grind is not entirely and exclusively 'in your mind'. In some cases it certainly is, in others it is not. The grind in some aspects of the game is entirely real and exists (as one example) because of the decision to gate access to certain materials behind the multi-layered RNG involved in searching for HGE USSs. 'Just don't do engineering then' is the answer of a fool for the reason given above, so I do hope you won't disappoint me by delivering it.

A more sensible answer is you no longer need it immediately to upgrade fully so don't bother to go looking, do something else and sooner or later it'll turn up as a mission reward.

If you do want to go looking for specific USS's, grab a fighty ship get to the right place and allow yourself to get distracted. Drop into any old signal source that pop's up and interdict all the pirates. You'll claim bounties, get ambushed, rescue escape pods, make space-cash, grab other mats, constantly have a variety of exhilarating space adventures. And to cap it all the USS you want will turn up sooner or later. In short you make a game of it.

Staring at the screen grinding your teeth because it's not the right kind of signal source is it's own reward.

I'm completely sure that constructive feedback on which aspects of that (and any other) process players feel does create a grind cycle and how it may be addressed is of interest to FDev, so I sincerely hope that players carry on 'complaining' about it rather than convincing themselves that they're suffering from some kind of psychological problem which manifests itself as wanting the experience of engaging with all aspects of a computer game they play to be as, well... engaging as possible.

The best thing to facilitate that is a massive and immediate reduction in the pointless whining, because currently it's all just noise and good information is being lost.

 

[GODofDUTY83]

Sort of a "What is your in-game Career" looking question.
Mine is mining.
All other activities are either in support of the main career, or a pleasant distraction from it.

Pretty simple.

\\///
Oo?
o
Spike.K

My career is mining also. Although I dont actually go out and mine. I let the Ai guys do it for me whilst I run the company. Making mad profits and requisitioning refineries.

It has to be said that all the changes being made to the mission board are really killing the flow of the game. Its a shame that so many players just utterly failed to see how the game worked and now it is slowly being corroded away.
Frontier had a fantastic mission flow and so many of you failed to see beyond your credit grind. Shame.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

And if so, what do you class as 'playing the game'?

It's not about playing the game or not playing the game. Grind is an activity within the game that you would not willingly undertake but you do so ONLY for progression.

For example, would you spend 2 hours on a planet shooting rocks and collecting arsenic just for fun?

Most of us are adults with jobs, maybe wives and kids. We get very little free time to play games. It makes no sense to take the one free hour you get and spend it doing something you don't enjoy to earn virtual credits.

A well designed game allows you to progress while doing things that you enjoy doing. Since not everyone enjoys the same thing, usually you can progress through many different activities.

 

[Mysturji]

It's a game. It should be fun.
For me, that usually involves exploring, but that's me. YMMV.
But then, I like variety. Currently, I'm mining. Later, I'll probably do some BH in a Hi-res, then I'll go collect some mats & data mats because I need to stock up for DW2 (Oh! The GRIND!!![mad][mad]) Then maybe some trading. I don't know. I don't plan this stuff. I'm playing! Leave me alone! :drama queen:

 

[Red Anders]

I don't agree with engineering being grindy anymore, now you can pin a blue print and complete the upgrade later all the pressures off to do it at the engineer, so there's no need to have everything before you go. So you can turn up with minimal stuff grab a low level upgrade apply whatever experimental you want on your visit then wander off back into the black to complete it later as and when the bits turn up. Add in the mat traders and the hardest part is jumping to the engineer in the first place.

Top quality grind reduction QOL improvement there.

There is a great deal of grind reduction in 3.x engineering. Other than the specific example I cited. Which is, y'know, why I cited it.

6-1 exchange rates for G5 > G5 across material families or G4 > G5 for trading up (not to mention a frankly ludicrous 36-1 for G3 to G5) doesn't mitigate it in any meaningful way either since collecting 6x as much of the material you actually need is also rather grindy.

Regarding just wandering around and adopting an 'oh well I'll do it whenever' mentality, I'd have to suggest you read the explanation of what gameplay is to me - it is the setting and achievement of goals. That means when I log on for a four hour session, I don't do so with the intention of abandoning what I decided I wanted to do, doing some other stuff instead and going back to the thing I wanted to do another time. Endless compromise is real life - this is not real life.

There are plenty of times that I will just potter round a few systems doing a bit of this and a bit of that because it's what I decided to do in that session. When I decide that I want to do something else, just pottering around ceases to be fun because it's not what I actually want to be doing at that time.

You can couple that with the fact that the chances of 'just happening' to be in a system which has the specific government type, faction control and state to deliver HGEs with the specific material you need and then 'just happening' to come across one outside of deep space whilst you're just flying to a station or whatever are practically negligible, which is the entire reason that acquiring the materials in question becomes a grind - because to obtain the necessary quantities within a timescale which isn't geological, the only solution is to engage in a repetitive and excruciatingly boring process which provides no guarantee of success even after investing significant time. It perfectly illustrates why multi-layered RNG as a content gate remains very lame.

Just to be absolutely clear, you do understand and accept that I'm talking about a very specific situation that arises when attempting to deal with one aspect of the game right? I mean it's pretty much the epitome of specific, targeted and reasonable feedback and giving it doesn't in any way mean that I don't recognise and acknowledge the areas that were improved in 3.0.

There is no amount of positive change that should serve as a barrier against valid criticism of areas of the game which could still stand improvement.

 

[Citizen4]

I'd say "playing" the game is when you are flying around picking your activities and having fun, weighing up your options carefully and considering all available courses of action.

Grind sets in when you are performing those activities, not because you enjoy them, but because you want to see the numbers in your credit account or material storage go up.

^^This man speaks true

 

[Stigbob]

There is a great deal of grind reduction in 3.x engineering. Other than the specific example I cited. Which is, y'know, why I cited it.

6-1 exchange rates for G5 > G5 across material families or G4 > G5 for trading up (not to mention a frankly ludicrous 36-1 for G3 to G5) doesn't mitigate it in any meaningful way either since collecting 6x as much of the material you actually need is also rather grindy.

Regarding just wandering around and adopting an 'oh well I'll do it whenever' mentality, I'd have to suggest you read the explanation of what gameplay is to me - it is the setting and achievement of goals. That means when I log on for a four hour session, I don't do so with the intention of abandoning what I decided I wanted to do, doing some other stuff instead and going back to the thing I wanted to do another time. Endless compromise is real life - this is not real life.

There are plenty of times that I will just potter round a few systems doing a bit of this and a bit of that because it's what I decided to do in that session. When I decide that I want to do something else, just pottering around ceases to be fun because it's not what I actually want to be doing at that time.

You can couple that with the fact that the chances of 'just happening' to be in a system which has the specific government type, faction control and state to deliver HGEs with the specific material you need and then 'just happening' to come across one outside of deep space whilst you're just flying to a station or whatever are practically negligible, which is the entire reason that acquiring the materials in question becomes a grind - because to obtain the necessary quantities within a timescale which isn't geological, the only solution is to engage in a repetitive and excruciatingly boring process which provides no guarantee of success even after investing significant time. It perfectly illustrates why multi-layered RNG as a content gate remains very lame.

Just to be absolutely clear, you do understand and accept that I'm talking about a very specific situation that arises when attempting to deal with one aspect of the game right? I mean it's pretty much the epitome of specific, targeted and reasonable feedback and giving it doesn't in any way mean that I don't recognise and acknowledge the areas that were improved in 3.0.

There is no amount of positive change that should serve as a barrier against valid criticism of areas of the game which could still stand improvement.

I'd say you are making some bad choices there, based simply on how much you seem not to be enjoying it.

 

[Red Anders]

I'd say you are making some bad choices there, based simply on how much you seem not to be enjoying it.

What is it that you have difficulty understanding here? I am talking about ONE activity in the game and even about a specific subset of that activity, one which is nevertheless a necessity to achieve a particular goal.

• I don't spend all of my game time doing it, precisely because it is so hateful a way to spend time.
• I would not choose to do it for it's own sake because that is not enjoyable to me.
• I do spend about 97% of my game time doing other things which are enjoyable.

However in order to do certain other things in the game, which I also find enjoyable, I first have to do this one task which is not enjoyable by virtue of design decisions. The only choice there is 'do the crap thing' or 'don't do any of the things that the crap thing is a prerequisite for.' If you're happy not bothering with some aspects of the game that's great. For you. Like I said, pretty sure that FDev's vision is not that people will find aspects of their game so dreary and unfulfilling that they opt out of participation.

I've been posting on here for well over two years. Threads about mining, exploring, trade, CGs, combat, you can find me in all of them. There isn't a single aspect of the game other than PVP that I haven't spent significant time on - I'm not logging in and spending ten hours at a time screaming at the screen about frakking USSs.

That still doesn't change the fact that the gameplay around them is bunk and that constructive criticism of it is valid. It is emphatically not 'pointless whining'

How long I do or don't spend doing it has no actual relevance; what is relevant is that when I do spend time doing it, it is utterly devoid of player agency due to very poor design. It could easily be mitigated and despite what seems to be your one-man campaign to tell everybody that it doesn't really matter, or that we should just put on a happy face and do something else, removing any need to bypass it by actually improving it is an objectively better solution.

There is no point at which crap gameplay has an excuse, or should be tolerated. Whether you personally can work around it is really of no relevance whatsoever. Repeatedly saying the equivalent of 'you're just stupid for doing it' isn't really what I call a constructive contribution - it's just attempting to impose your own playing style and interests on other players and then decrying them when they don't share your willingness to impose limitations on your gameplay, or play in a less target-focused way.

 

[Dbrn47]

What is it that you have difficulty understanding here? I am talking about ONE activity in the game and even about a specific subset of that activity, one which is nevertheless a necessity to achieve a particular goal.

• I don't spend all of my game time doing it, precisely because it is so hateful a way to spend time.
• I would not choose to do it for it's own sake because that is not enjoyable to me.
• I do spend about 97% of my game time doing other things which are enjoyable.

However in order to do certain other things in the game, which I also find enjoyable, I first have to do this one task which is not enjoyable by virtue of design decisions. The only choice there is 'do the crap thing' or 'don't do any of the things that the crap thing is a prerequisite for.' If you're happy not bothering with some aspects of the game that's great. For you. Like I said, pretty sure that FDev's vision is not that people will find aspects of their game so dreary and unfulfilling that they opt out of participation.

I've been posting on here for well over two years. Threads about mining, exploring, trade, CGs, combat, you can find me in all of them. There isn't a single aspect of the game other than PVP that I haven't spent significant time on - I'm not logging in and spending ten hours at a time screaming at the screen about frakking USSs.

That still doesn't change the fact that the gameplay around them is bunk and that constructive criticism of it is valid. It is emphatically not 'pointless whining'

How long I do or don't spend doing it has no actual relevance; what is relevant is that when I do spend time doing it, it is utterly devoid of player agency due to very poor design. It could easily be mitigated and despite what seems to be your one-man campaign to tell everybody that it doesn't really matter, or that we should just put on a happy face and do something else, removing any need to bypass it by actually improving it is an objectively better solution.

There is no point at which crap gameplay has an excuse, or should be tolerated. Whether you personally can work around it is really of no relevance whatsoever. Repeatedly saying the equivalent of 'you're just stupid for doing it' isn't really what I call a constructive contribution - it's just attempting to impose your own playing style and interests on other players and then decrying them when they don't share your willingness to impose limitations on your gameplay, or play in a less target-focused way.

All an illusion my friend, a mind trick, an amalgamation of all your hatred of the game. Should just find a different game that you enjoy so the rest of us can get back to enjoying this one.

Spoiler

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…; let's say you have all the money you need and all the ships you need, with all the engineering you need. What do you do now? What is 'playing the game' to you?

I have all the money I need (and more) and all the ships I need (and more) and - ok, not all the engineering I need.

What do is playing the game for me? Flying around in a spaceship for some made up reasons, collecting stuff to make flying around in spaceships more fun (engineering), blowing up NPCs, looking at new things, nudging the influence of this or that faction in the right direction, not getting killed by an other player, typing o7 quick enough into the chat for that other player to see it before that player jumps out of the system…

Most of the things I do in this game is "playing the game" for me - and that is mostly because I have all the money and all the ships.
I had to "grind" for the Anaconda before realizing that I have more fun in a DBS or Vulture. I have everything and now I can relax, lean back and have fun - not that I hadn't fun getting all that stuff. I just transcended the grind.

 

[Red Anders]

All an illusion my friend, a mind trick, an amalgamation of all your hatred of the game. Should just find a different game that you enjoy so the rest of us can get back to enjoying this one.

Spoiler

http://i4.glitter-graphics.org/pub/2025/2025464i705xx4x2c.gif

Yes, I'm clearly delusional.

Spoiler

 

[Stigbob]

What is it that you have difficulty understanding here? I am talking about ONE activity in the game and even about a specific subset of that activity, one which is nevertheless a necessity to achieve a particular goal.

• I don't spend all of my game time doing it, precisely because it is so hateful a way to spend time.
• I would not choose to do it for it's own sake because that is not enjoyable to me.
• I do spend about 97% of my game time doing other things which are enjoyable.

However in order to do certain other things in the game, which I also find enjoyable, I first have to do this one task which is not enjoyable by virtue of design decisions. The only choice there is 'do the crap thing' or 'don't do any of the things that the crap thing is a prerequisite for.' If you're happy not bothering with some aspects of the game that's great. For you. Like I said, pretty sure that FDev's vision is not that people will find aspects of their game so dreary and unfulfilling that they opt out of participation.

I've been posting on here for well over two years. Threads about mining, exploring, trade, CGs, combat, you can find me in all of them. There isn't a single aspect of the game other than PVP that I haven't spent significant time on - I'm not logging in and spending ten hours at a time screaming at the screen about frakking USSs.

That still doesn't change the fact that the gameplay around them is bunk and that constructive criticism of it is valid. It is emphatically not 'pointless whining'

How long I do or don't spend doing it has no actual relevance; what is relevant is that when I do spend time doing it, it is utterly devoid of player agency due to very poor design. It could easily be mitigated and despite what seems to be your one-man campaign to tell everybody that it doesn't really matter, or that we should just put on a happy face and do something else, removing any need to bypass it by actually improving it is an objectively better solution.

There is no point at which crap gameplay has an excuse, or should be tolerated. Whether you personally can work around it is really of no relevance whatsoever. Repeatedly saying the equivalent of 'you're just stupid for doing it' isn't really what I call a constructive contribution - it's just attempting to impose your own playing style and interests on other players and then decrying them when they don't share your willingness to impose limitations on your gameplay, or play in a less target-focused way.

I've been posting here since 2014 it means absolutely nothing.

You typed an effort post and I replied with one, you ignored most of mine to complain about my understanding of yours. So that's all the effort posting you'll get.

I've suggested an alterative overall approach and specific method for gathering the mat you think you need lots of, I've also told you I enjoy the game and gathering mats that way. I don't need to agree with you that it's crap.

 

[Dbrn47]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wonk

(1) Noun - An expert in a field, typically someone who is fairly young and very intelligent. (2) Verb - To use ones mastery of a specific subject to perform some type of work.

wonk

wäNGk

noun North American informal derogatory

noun: wonk; plural noun: wonks

• a studious or hardworking person.
  "any kid with an interest in science was a wonk"
  • a person who takes an excessive interest in minor details of political policy.
    "he is a policy wonk in tune with a younger generation of voters"
  
  
  nautical slang An incompetent or inexperienced sailor, especially a naval cadet.
  
  
  

 

[znôrt]

I don't think anything's doomed just yet, I've been saying that since 2014. The joke in the patch notes was just that a joke. I honestly can't see anyone being genuinely offended other than the sort of humorless types they were making the joke about, or the people skilled at feigning being offended.

I don't know much about warframe (I cant stand 3rd person) and those vids are over an hour combined which seems too grindy for me tonight, I'll get around to watching them at some point I have them bookmarked. I did read an article about it though, they dropped a random micro transaction because the whales were spanking it like idiots. Which is good of the devs, but I don't get the comparison as ED's store has no random whale hooks you know what you get and it's all just cosmetic.

not saying it's doomed, at all. just that it's dangerous.

the doc is really interesting, not that much about the game (i haven't even played it (yet)) but about its making, the circumstances and the different decisions behind. then again, most of the opinions reflected are those of the developers, but it seems they are actually doing quite well.

 

[Stigbob]

wonk

wäNGk

noun North American informal derogatory

noun: wonk; plural noun: wonks

• a studious or hardworking person.
  "any kid with an interest in science was a wonk"
  • a person who takes an excessive interest in minor details of political policy.
    "he is a policy wonk in tune with a younger generation of voters"
  
  
  nautical slang An incompetent or inexperienced sailor, especially a naval cadet.
  
  
  

Thanks for clarifying that, since it's derogatory I've reported him.

 

[Enderby]

Thanks for clarifying that, since it's derogatory I've reported him.

Woo! Badman!

Bet he's ting himself.

 

[Truesilver]

Personally for me what I class as playing the game, right now, is anytime I'm in a max-spec PvP build waiting to kill or be killed by those also in max-spec PvP builds.

I felt the same in 1.1-1.5. It was just a lot quicker to get to that point.

 

[Stigbob]

Woo! Badman!

Bet he's ting himself.

He made a big deal about putting me on ignore the other day, doesn't seem to be very good at it.