Repeat the same Guardian unlock 18 times? Really?

[Rafe Zetter]

Four years.

I think it's beyond doubt now. The Elite Dangerous Kickstarter campaign, was more about kick-starting Frontier Developments than bringing the "game for the ages" to market.

Since then and it seems for the foreseeable future, they'll throw the bare minimum at it to keep the justification going.

can I say I told you so now? I've said this more than once over the years. Cashing in on the "we want elite 4", train was a no brainer from a business point of view.

As I've also said not long ago - DB had 20 years to bring Elite 4 to us, but didn't; then crowdfunding becomes a serious thing and.."hey guys look I'm annoucing elite 4, just give me £2,000,000 and it's yours" and we the fans duly lose our minds and fall over ourselves to give him the money.

6 years on, now he's a millionaire and were still saying "where's X Y Z you said we were getting?"

It might not even be much of a stretch to say FDev are just treading water until SC kicks off.

I'd love to know what chris roberts truly feels about what's been going on with ED - if he has any sense he'll be watching so he can avoid any similar mistakes.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I disagree, somewhat. The actual design of the ruins and orb event themselves is fairly awesome, the art and sound teams did a fantastic job with them. The problem only arises with the mechanics of how these ruins are integrated into the gameplay loop.

The ruins themselves aren’t the problem, the mechanics associated with them is.

These 2 sentences describe 100% of FDev's issues.

Looks great, terrible delivery. Dog chocolate rolled in gold leaf.

 

[Zeeman]

can I say I told you so now? I've said this more than once over the years. Cashing in on the "we want elite 4", train was a no brainer from a business point of view.

As I've also said not long ago - DB had 20 years to bring Elite 4 to us, but didn't; then crowdfunding becomes a serious thing and.."hey guys look I'm annoucing elite 4, just give me £2,000,000 and it's yours" and we the fans duly lose our minds and fall over ourselves to give him the money.

6 years on, now he's a millionaire and were still saying "where's X Y Z you said we were getting?"

It might not even be much of a stretch to say FDev are just treading water until SC kicks off.

I'd love to know what chris roberts truly feels about what's been going on with ED - if he has any sense he'll be watching so he can avoid any similar mistakes.

Just quietly, SC looks to be in it's own special world of drama. At least ED is a game you can play, and most seem to be able to sink 500-1000hrs into it before getting annoyed with the grind.

Z...

 

[Bryan K]

Still not a peep from the folks who designed this silliness.

That’s because they have serious pride issues. How often have FDev actually admitted to making a mistake? They usually just quietly tune the feature and act like it was their idea all along.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Well said!

My perception of the issue is that the devs feel that if anything is too 'easy' then the solution to fix it is 'do more/collect more of it'

Missions any payouts are another example of this. With the gold rushes, it's 'too easy' to make money, so they reduce the payout so your left with doing more of that task to reach the same goal. I'm not trying to justify insane payouts, but rather the methodology they use to address the issue as opposed to questioning why people flock to massive payouts and work to address the balance.

At the end of the day, I hope they're reading this thread and taking some of what's said to heart.

Possibly.

The other alternative is they designed one system and pressed "upload to all" so that all guardian sites use the new "content" - because that's a whole lot quicker than handworking each site with different content.

This way each site just plugs into ONE master RNG loot table and all use the same "get$" - instead of each site using a seperate call, and the loot table being more complex. They chose the same path they always seem to "the least amount of work to get a result, not the "BEST FIT" result, just A result."

adding the requirement of having to do it more often to get anything was just FDev's usual MO for pretty much everything - as has been said elsewhere, the devs grew up on the "fetch me 20" mechanic of other games and don't know how to do anything else, or if they do - don't know how to make it work.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Iam an oldish gamer ( 51 ) Winst a bit there done wow for years and all the battlefield stuff had all the PlayStations sega megadrives Sinclair's spectrum's even the original elite back in the day . Watched the stream were Sandro said ' we value your time ' goodgreif if that is not the most hippocritical statement of the year when you then ask no tell your players to then do the exact same thing 18 times over.l don't know I don't grind just play bit of this bit of that yaknow but I could use the fsd booster on my vette but iam getting a bit peed off with the naff gameplay to get stuff...wow actual feel a little better after the rant

Dude that isn't a rant - not even close - that doesn't even match the first paragraph of some of mine

Cmon I'm sure you can do better..... trust your feelings, let go....

 

[Rafe Zetter]

You do realise this is a Computer game (essentially disposable entertainment...like a film or a CD) which you paid a trivial amount of money for...right?

- When a product doesn't work, and doesn't make it's buyers want to buy more, the pricetag is irrelevent. You can only sell junk so many times before people catch on.

This is a business #101 rule - ignore it at your peril.

If you honestly thought that making crappy "disposable entertainment" was a viable thing - why do so many crappy films lose money?

- People don't like paying good money for a bad experience.

That's ALSO a business #101 rule.

If you think neither of those apply to computer games - go speak to John Romero and Peter Molyneux. You'll find conversations with them quite enlightening. (If you don't even know who they are, that in itself highlights both of the above rules.)

(you are also ignoring all the KS backers who paid more than the base £25, which is currently what the game (inc horizons) costs now - of which there are many thousands, many of whom paid more than £500 which is the equivalent of SEVEN YEARS subs to WoW.)

I'd love to have a lifestyle where £500 was a trivial amount.

 

[Cmdr Lucca1985]

why can't it be, one data packet for each guardian item you want to unlock? there's already another load of things you need anyway, so it's not like it makes it suddenly easier, just means you don't have to mindlessly repeat the "puzzle" over and over via relogs.
And for "immersion" reasons, it doesn't make sense that having 6 identical data packets allows you to unlock something that 1 of those items wont......

This

 

[Zeeman]

I have to say, as much as I love the game, the insistence on grind to get the parts I want so I can actually do what I want, has stopped me actually logging in for about a month now, and only minimally over the last 12 months.

It's not the time, it's the fact that the time spent is dull, it may be fun the first couple of times, but that'll be it. It's not like a race track, which, yes, is the same thing over and over, but learning it, improving your lap times and clipping each apex is the point.

I recently (6 months) got Elite status in combat. ~8000 kills... It's only fun for the first 1000, and any times there is an AI update (until children scream and it gets nerfed again). I really think there must be a better way to get Elite status than killing 8000 npc's. Possibly more along the line sof missions offered that require you to use a faction provided ship (to enable you to find your target undetected), then put you into a situation where you are heavily outgunned. Say, 4v1 in a Cobra, 1 x large Elite ship, 1 x Dangerous+ medium ship, and 2 x Dangerous+ small ships. Perhaps even finding ways to bait them into fighting on your terms (drawing them into an asteroid field, thus giving you cover).

I just feel that being Elite is not so much about kills, but smart kills. Taking out an Elite Corvette after it is damaged by another fight is smart. Drawing large ships into asteroid fields, where they have a tough time manoeuvring is smart. Knowing when to bail a losing battle is smart (you don't get to Elite if you're dead, right?).

Yeah, I know, it's tough to code, but it's 2018, this should be where the devs throw down the gauntlet and say "challenge, accepted!".

Anyways, I'll likely be playing DCS until DWII, at least playing in groups is still fun in this game, and for that, I'm still happy.

Z...

 

[Genus]

I'd love to have a lifestyle where £500 was a trivial amount.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rafe Zetter again.

If you have £500 to spend on a 'puter game, it's usually because you already posses the attitude, that money is not a trivial matter.

Also, time...

 

[Requiem Mortis]

I thought I'd look at INARA and see what it takes to unlock ALL the Guardian Technology....

16 Module Blueprint Segment
17 Pattern Alpha Obelisk Data
42 Pattern Epsilon Obelisk Data
123 Power Cell*
116 Power conduit*
73 Sentinal Weapon Parts*
68 Sentinel Wreckage Components*
160 Technology Component*
48 Weapon Blueprint Segment

*Also used in synthesis recipes

 

[Mr_sukebe]

So for someone who's not yet been there, just FORTY EIGHT rounds of Weapon Blueprint gathering.

Wow, rinse and repeat 48 times.

I just picture one of the designers washing his hands in the bathroom. One of his colleagues comes in, shouts across:
"hey, you're not going to believe what I got through on the guardian design"
"yeah, what's that then?"
"as a joke for the 1st of April, I hid the fact that they'd have to repeat this task 48 times"
"48, me, that's an excellent Aprils fool. You sayin they bought it"
"yeah man, I don't care, joining Capita next week, em. I'll be laffin all the way..."

 

[tolm]

I thought I'd look at INARA and see what it takes to unlock ALL the Guardian Technology....

16 Module Blueprint Segment
17 Pattern Alpha Obelisk Data
42 Pattern Epsilon Obelisk Data
123 Power Cell*
116 Power conduit*
73 Sentinal Weapon Parts*
68 Sentinel Wreckage Components*
160 Technology Component*
48 Weapon Blueprint Segment

*Also used in synthesis recipes

Yikes! Now ... if the first Guardian / Thargoid Mission to “go collect stuff/intel from this site” rewarded you with enough materials to get a couple of basic weapons and then the next one was “we need you to take out a Scout in this location” gave you enough for a slightly better weapon and then the next was “okay, a wing of scouts is attacking system <x>” which gave you enough for another rung ... and so on ... and so on ... culminating in “there’s a massive invasion force - get winged up and take ‘em down” for the final top notch stuff? THAT would be progression ... you’d do different missions, get some rewards along the way and the final “ultra rare” stuff would be both hard and require a wing.

The whole thing could be delivered via an Imperial / Federal Navy “Thargoid Joint Task Force” which would be like a hybrid faction/engineer: as you increase your rep (via missions and purchases) you unlock higher grade weapons/components AND the harder missions - which by there nature require the better weapons. Early missions get you 1D / 2D weapons, later ones reward you with access to the 3A/4A variants. That sort of thing.

Heck, it’s ALMOST a story yet nothing I’ve described there requires a different mechanic to what’s in the game now ...

 

[John Xenir]

Yikes! Now ... if the first Guardian / Thargoid Mission to “go collect stuff/intel from this site” rewarded you with enough materials to get a couple of basic weapons and then the next one was “we need you to take out a Scout in this location” gave you enough for a slightly better weapon and then the next was “okay, a wing of scouts is attacking system <x>” which gave you enough for another rung ... and so on ... and so on ... culminating in “there’s a massive invasion force - get winged up and take ‘em down” for the final top notch stuff? THAT would be progression ... you’d do different missions, get some rewards along the way and the final “ultra rare” stuff would be both hard and require a wing. Heck, it’s ALMOST a story yet nothing I’ve described there requires a different mechanic to what’s in the game now ...

That would feel as a progressing story, natural and engaging.
I feel the urge to make snarky remark that this wouldn't then fit with the grindy design of the game, but I'll resist it.
I'll just say I would love such naturally progressing stuff in the game.

 

[Genus]

"yeah man, I don't care, joining Capita next week, em. I'll be laffin all the way..."

Chuckle. He's a real hero. ;-)

 

[tolm]

That would feel as a progressing story, natural and engaging.
I feel the urge to make snarky remark that this wouldn't then fit with the grindy design of the game, but I'll resist it.
I'll just say I would love such naturally progressing stuff in the game.

Well, it’s still kinda grindy ... just it’s the grind of the main game (do missions, get rep and credits, buy better stuff, do harder missions) rather than just Collect Stuff. Repeatedly. For. Ever.

Heck, the reason for needing the weapons is to engage the Thargoids in combat. Kinda feel like some (most!) of the way to get them should be from combat ... and specifically missions since they’re more engaging than random “kill anything and collect McGuffin #237 if it’s dropped”

 

[Jex =TE=]

The Guardian tech is, for me, the first exciting new elements to the game since I got it. I bought ED and Horizons during the Christmas sales of 2017. This gave me the chance to see if I was going to enjoy the game without huge expense.

I’ve done this with other games and, if I stick with the game, I usually end up doing the pre-buy with future content since I expect I will enjoy the new content if I’m still playing the game.

I would like to thank FDev for making 3.0 free. You have taught me that the amount of mind numbing grind introduced with new content means I am better off waiting for a sale on future new content in the hope that the grind is reduced before the sale.

I was told that something similar happened with engineers in Horizons. That is the initial quantity of materials needed and ability to actually get them was adjusted later to cut down on grind and player frustration.

While I do plan on going through some of the Guardian sites and various game play associated with them, I am not going to repeat the same task 18 times just to get enough of whatever I need to actually unlock a new item.

I like the story lines, and seeing the weird alien structures. I am shocked at how difficult the puzzles in this game are (breaking cesar ciphers and decoding Morse code in static noise; colour me impressed). The games I’ve played usually limit themselves to things like mazes and towers of Hanoi types of puzzles.

And at some point one of those "puzzles" was bugged, meaning it couldn't be completed ever because FDev test nothing - look at the new Guardian FSD drives.

So imagine working on one of these complex puzzles for weeks only to find you weren't doing it wrong, it was broken to begin with.

 

[Jex =TE=]

The chances of anyone in Design, (assuming there's more than just one person.. ) coming forward and acknowledging this thread is exactly zero. The mantra of "We don't want to waste your time" will continue to be spouted, while at the same time continuing the absolute farce that is mission design choices like this. It defies belief. Does ANYONE at FD actually PLAY their own game?

If they did, wouldn't they have noticed the FSD drives were borked?

 

[Jex =TE=]

This is similar to another comment someone else made.

Discontinuity of team members during a games production always leads to problems, and I have a personal theory that the people who developed ED 1.0 are not the same as who are working on 3.0.

Even with Sandro being "lead designer", plonking a new guy down in front of someone elses code will always lead to discontinuity - Sit 100 people in a room and ask them to draw you a car and you'll get 100 different drawings of a car.

The english phrase "too many cooks" is pretty accurate when looking at how some things are implemented in ED.

Years from now we might learn what's been going on at FDev.

This might give you an idea.

Pros

Frontier are trying really hard to be progressive and create an attractive and open culture. It is an excellent company to work for and rewards talent ( when it's noticed). They have come a long way in the last 5 years. The future is very bright for the company. There has been a lot of changes to working conditions - overtime is rare and paid if necessary, there is management training now and a rejigged and improved … Show More

Cons

The biggest issue is that there's still too much top down decision making from the senior management without enough input from middle managers who are the ones who understand how to make games and how long it takes. They are trying to improve on this but it is slow going.

Advice to Management

Consult the expertise in your middle management and listen and act on what they say , even if you do not like what you hear!! Empower and trust your people !!

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Frontier-Developments-Reviews-E372218.htm

 

[Jex =TE=]

Just quietly, SC looks to be in it's own special world of drama. At least ED is a game you can play, and most seem to be able to sink 500-1000hrs into it before getting annoyed with the grind.

Z...

That's factually incorrect as DB himself said the average play time is 60 hours and 90% of people that bought the game aren't playing it anymore. We need to stop fantasizing that we have this magical player base that are happy with the game because for years now, the game has been mostly defended by people who think all the game mechanics are perfectly fine and ED is the best game ever made. It's only in the last few months that the penny finally seems to be dropping and people are realising how little gameplay there actually is which is a good thing, because now at least we can sing from thew same song sheet and hopefully get some much needed improvment - we have Beyond now so hopefully FDev have some good ideas to get the game back in the game.