PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

IMO you are missing the point...

There are reasons for PvP - Bounty Hunting and Piracy - these could do with improvement but we have covered that ground already.

As for PvP being "rare and meaningful" that is the design intent according to FD, and the Bounty aspect adds a form of meaning (arguably so does the nortoriety aspect too).

If you are expecting PvP focused gameplay in the main environment then you are going to have a long wait - as in almost certainly never.

I don't think that adding some meaningful PvP goals progression/goals, which can be parallel to PvE, would hurt the game and thus should be avoided. If you have reasoning about this being untrue, please share it.

You say that there are piracy and bounty hunting. In order to do any PvP piracy, you need people which are ready to be pirated, thus playing in open. Which are not abundant. So griefing is way easier to do than pirate someone. And thus PvP pirates are rare, unlike griefers.

So, if FDev would block griefing outright, it will kill PvP bounty hunting as well.

What would remain then? And the only way to buff PvP piracy is to... remove Solo mode. Ok, I am fine with it, but I guess you are not.

So other reasons to engage in PvP should be added. And that really should be a priority.


PvP bounty hunting is quite alive, btw. Yesterday I had interdicted one well-known criminal with my cheap Chieftain, in order to try my luck and practice a bit. And when I had just lost my thin biweaves, four of angry German Cutter pilots had dropped in and drew poor soul away from my sensors range...

 

[lenna]

In order to do any PvP piracy

You seem to be missing the point again - all PvP is intended to be emergent, whether the piracy is PvP/PvE is irrelevant. If you are talking about "exclusive" PvP Piracy (or Bounty Hunting for that matter) then you are not talking about ED.

As for griefing, the nature of true Bounty Hunting precludes it being considered griefing and where Piracy is concerned there seems to be a consensus that the tools for Piracy in general are lacking in some areas (even where PvE is concerned).

As for PvP Piracy, if certain individuals did not insist on pushing salt-mining/ganking type gameplay you may find some would be more inclined to play in open and participate in proper PvP piracy (on the receiving end). That is partly the fault of Piracy tools lacking in some areas and partly the fault of some using Piracy as an excuse to engage in overly aggressive gameplay.

As for the gameplay modes, they have nothing to do with the general matter at hand - if people want to play ED as a single player game that is their right to do so. If they wish to dip their toe into Open or Group modes (or visa versa) that is also part of their right to do so.

Fundamentally, the PvP-ing community as a whole (i.e. not everyone but as a collective group - the notional minority spoiling it for the rest) deserve a large part of the blame for any given group of players (that might otherwise choose to play in Open) not wanting to participate in Open.

 

[jasonbarron]

I don't think that adding some meaningful PvP goals progression/goals, which can be parallel to PvE, would hurt the game and thus should be avoided. If you have reasoning about this being untrue, please share it.

You say that there are piracy and bounty hunting. In order to do any PvP piracy, you need people which are ready to be pirated, thus playing in open. Which are not abundant. So griefing is way easier to do than pirate someone. And thus PvP pirates are rare, unlike griefers.

So, if FDev would block griefing outright, it will kill PvP bounty hunting as well.

What would remain then? And the only way to buff PvP piracy is to... remove Solo mode. Ok, I am fine with it, but I guess you are not.

So other reasons to engage in PvP should be added. And that really should be a priority.


PvP bounty hunting is quite alive, btw. Yesterday I had interdicted one well-known criminal with my cheap Chieftain, in order to try my luck and practice a bit. And when I had just lost my thin biweaves, four of angry German Cutter pilots had dropped in and drew poor soul away from my sensors range...

Egy, you seem to be a pretty level headed guy who's just interested in a better game for all involved. Are you interested in PvP, or actively engage in it?

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

You seem to be missing the point again - all PvP is intended to be emergent, whether the piracy is PvP/PvE is irrelevant. If you are talking about "exclusive" PvP Piracy (or Bounty Hunting for that matter) then you are not talking about ED.

As for griefing, the nature of true Bounty Hunting precludes it being considered griefing and where Piracy is concerned there seems to be a consensus that the tools for Piracy in general are lacking in some areas (even where PvE is concerned).

As for PvP Piracy, if certain individuals did not insist on pushing salt-mining/ganking type gameplay you may find some would be more inclined to play in open and participate in proper PvP piracy (on the receiving end). That is partly the fault of Piracy tools lacking in some areas and partly the fault of some using Piracy as an excuse to engage in overly aggressive gameplay.

As for the gameplay modes, they have nothing to do with the general matter at hand - if people want to play ED as a single player game that is their right to do so. If they wish to dip their toe into Open or Group modes (or visa versa) that is also part of their right to do so.

Fundamentally, the PvP-ing community as a whole (i.e. not everyone but as a collective group - the notional minority spoiling it for the rest) deserve a large part of the blame for any given group of players (that might otherwise choose to play in Open) not wanting to participate in Open.

You still had not given any reasoning about why there can be no activities in the game where PvP is not emergent.

PvP is a high risk task. Why not add any high reward to it? You and other PvE players being uninterested in it is not valid reason, you know?
And current state of things, where progression made in a way where even a clinical would not be offended with it's "hardcoreness", is simply insulting in some cases. I am talking about all progression in this game in general, and I had stated the cause of it with placeholders becoming the norm.

And I had already said that no rewards for PvP IS the reason why PvP players are minority. Other reason is the state of progression, and the fact that you have to pretty much complete it to get to PvP part.

Futhermore, game being void of reasons to PvP, and selfish resistance of PvE players to any changes which do not benefit them, is the main source of behavior you had just mentioned.

 

[lenna]

You still had not given any reasoning about why there can be no activities in the game where PvP is not emergent.

I have given them (as have others) in earlier posts.

PvP is a high risk task.

Highly debatable, but I think you overstate the situation. The level of risk is dependent on a wide number of factors and is far from universally "high risk" regardless of your skill level or build.

As for PvP having no rewards, ermm to put it simply - you are talking out of the wrong orifice.

If you mean random combat (whether PvE or PvP) has no specific rewards for it, then you are mostly right but when people engage in specific activities (e.g. CZ, Bounty Hunting, Piracy, PP) the rewards are there.

The thing is that if you want PvP focused gameplay, play CQC or other games "intended to be directly PvP competitive" like EvE for example.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Egy, you seem to be a pretty level headed guy who's just interested in a better game for all involved. Are you interested in PvP, or actively engage in it?

PvP was the main drive in this game the whole time, and now I got to the point where I have almost cleared out the grindwall and already made enough trial and error to start getting some meaningful practice. 3193 upgrades generated, of them 946 are G5... No grind in this game whatsover, sure.

And me being unable to fly FDL cause of this cockpit hurts it alot as well.

I severely lack precongnition, which can be improved by practice only. And I do some weird decisions like goind with OC3 powerplant with heat vent on a hull tanks. But I certainly see my progress, last time I got two full shield rings off FDL I tried to kill for like 5th time in the evening, before this stupid PP gave up again.

And btw, what is "funny", this "griefer" just o7 'nd out after that, instead of sending me to rebuy again...

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

I have given them (as have others) in earlier posts.


Highly debatable, but I think you overstate the situation. The level of risk is dependent on a wide number of factors and is far from universally "high risk" regardless of your skill level or build.

As for PvP having no rewards, ermm to put it simply - you are talking out of the wrong orifice.

If you mean random combat (whether PvE or PvP) has no specific rewards for it, then you are mostly right but when people engage in specific activities (e.g. CZ, Bounty Hunting, Piracy, PP) the rewards are there.

The thing is that if you want PvP focused gameplay, play CQC or other games "intended to be directly PvP competitive" like EvE for example.

Oh, but competitive and hardcore are different terms. I know this well as I am still keeping myself on top 100 dotabuff list on some heroes despite being relatively old for this. I would never come to ED (and WoW with Lineage as well) for pure competitive value.

You see, everything what I had suggested was made in the way that it would not create anything obligatory for anyone uninvolved. What you and other people do is asking "what are you doing in my swamp??" either directly or rephrased. But this is my swamp as well, and please have some regard to opinions of other inhabitants.

This game have PvP activities. Which are in a bad shape. And do need expanding and revamping. And they do not have to concern anyone uninvolved.

 

[jasonbarron]

PvP was the main drive in this game the whole time, and now I got to the point where I have almost cleared out the grindwall and already made enough trial and error to start getting some meaningful practice. 3193 upgrades generated, of them 946 are G5... No grind in this game whatsover, sure.

And me being unable to fly FDL cause of this cockpit hurts it alot as well.

I severely lack precongnition, which can be improved by practice only. And I do some weird decisions like goind with OC3 powerplant with heat vent on a hull tanks. But I certainly see my progress, last time I got two full rings off FDL I tried to kill for like 5th time in the evening, before this stupid PP gave up again.

And btw, what is "funny", this "griefer" just o7 'nd out after that, instead of sending me to rebuy again...

Sounds like you're one of the people I've been looking for. One of the only reasons I put up with posters who are so determined to keep the game mired in the mud as rlsg is to find players such as yourself who still have an open mind, seek to learn and want the betterment of the game for all involved.

I'm going to PM you a link to discord channel of like minded players where you can speak your opinions without people clobbering you over the head in an effort to shut you up. It'll make a refreshing change of pace from what you constantly run into here, and I guarantee you'll be around people that you will enjoy playing with and learning from.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You use this emoticon way too much. It colors the tone of your posts and makes me think you're talking down to everyone here. I doubt I'm the only one that thinks this.

Considering some of the posts you've made elsewhere that demonstrate your lacking understanding of PvP builds and tactics it's likely not helping you make your case to anyone here in the PvP Subforum. I'd recommend dialing back the 'eye rolling.'

 

[ryoken12]

Why i stopped playing open, or doing PVP was simple. When i first started way back i got killed so many times by people in condas/pythons and other larger ships while i was in my starter ships, and kept losing hours of game play to make up re-buy costs i found it 0 fun. It was pretty much log into game, spend 3-4 hours earning cash, have 1 moron jump me in a much bigger/better ship and insta kill me, log off . Next day repeat. So i said screw it, and now play solo 95% of the time.
It would be different if players would ask if you wanted to PVP with them, instead of just attacking you. But they don't, and some players may have spent weeks their available game play time just to get the re-buy cost of say a trading cutter, just to have some PVP happy fool jump and kill them without a word. Meaning they now have to waste weeks more in a cheaper ship to get back that rebuy cash.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

And just to think, if ED had been a single player game, there would have been none of these discussions

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Why i stopped playing open, or doing PVP was simple. When i first started way back i got killed so many times by people in condas/pythons and other larger ships while i was in my starter ships, and kept losing hours of game play to make up re-buy costs i found it 0 fun. It was pretty much log into game, spend 3-4 hours earning cash, have 1 moron jump me in a much bigger/better ship and insta kill me, log off . Next day repeat. So i said screw it, and now play solo 95% of the time.
It would be different if players would ask if you wanted to PVP with them, instead of just attacking you. But they don't, and some players may have spent weeks their available game play time just to get the re-buy cost of say a trading cutter, just to have some PVP happy fool jump and kill them without a word. Meaning they now have to waste weeks more in a cheaper ship to get back that rebuy cash.

If you want to learn how to survive and thrive in Open no matter your activity this is the place to learn. Start a new thread, if you're interested. I promise tons of knowledgeable people ('good guys' and 'bad guys!') would be thrilled to help. Would you rather not, that's cool too.

 

[frostypaw]

Cause you do not value PvP in ED, it does not mean everyone should think the same way. That is your opinion, which is quite common, but still far from being universal.

Nobody is suggesting that. Time and again people have pointed out PvP is welcome and piracy and bounty hunting absolutely how things should be so rather than looping back to this thing that you know isn't so why not work out what's going on?

Futhermore, game being void of reasons to PvP, and selfish resistance of PvE players to any changes which do not benefit them, is the main source of behavior you had just mentioned.

Yet this stuff happens in every game where it's possible and not enforced-out.... what gives?

So other reasons to engage in PvP should be added. And that really should be a priority.

If only someone could provide us with convincing evidence that there are more than a few hundred active PvPers there might be a reason to make it a priority, but there's a lot of the game outside of PvP that wants attention too

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

And just to think, if ED had been a single player game, there would have been none of these discussions

To think if ED didn't exist at all! What happy lives we would lead!

This is sarcasm, for the record.

Let's deal with the game as it is right now. Wishing for the impossible doesn't fix anything.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

If only someone could provide us with convincing evidence that there are more than a few hundred active PvPers there might be a reason to make it a priority, but there's a lot of the game outside of PvP that wants attention too

No reasons for PvP => less PvPers => too little PvPers for devs to care about this.

Something is wrong with that line of thought being present. IMO, at least...

Btw this is extendable to PP, MC and Thargoid genocide as well.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I suspect the currently crop of PvPers represents how big the community can be just for the joy of doing PvP. Hundreds of relatively hardcore players isn't something to dismiss out of hand!

Sort of goes against a lot of the progression that exists in Elite, now that I think about it. Take a look at combat ranks - you never really know how good a pilot is until you get in the trench and find out!

 

[frostypaw]

No reasons for PvP => less PvPers => too little PvPers for devs to care about this.

Something is wrong with that line of thought being present. IMO, at least...

Btw this is extendable to PP, MC and Thargoid genocide as well.

Oh yeah I know. Sucks really. CQC was going to get more attention but went the same way.

Really it's in the players' hands but as you see mostly it's combative and dismissive. The side that need to get people on their side are ... not good at getting people on their side tending instead to belittle and increase their attack level as things get worse and more people leave Open.

Gotta pitch your action at the right level, this isn't it so things keep getting worse.

 

[jasonbarron]

And just to think, if ED had been a single player game, there would have been none of these discussions

If that were the case I would have played it for a 100 or so hours until utterly mastering it's perpetually unfinished and underwhelming PvE aspects, and then with no reason or higher purpose to continue would have binned it. Seeing as how I purchase around $100.00 a year for cosmetics that I personally cannot see or appreciate and further would be all too happy to pay cash on the barrel-head for any future expansions that Fdev cared to release, I think that would be a negative. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Edit: it's interesting to see my personal hypothesis playing out; watching all the solo/group players swarm Egy like a pack of hyenas in the hopes of culling a lion cub from the pride before he has a chance to solidify in his opinions. It's pretty funny, really. It's too late, though. He's already beyond your abilities to tear him down. The lions win this round

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Oh yeah I know. Sucks really. CQC was going to get more attention but went the same way.

Really it's in the players' hands but as you see mostly it's combative and dismissive. The side that need to get people on their side are ... not good at getting people on their side tending instead to belittle and increase their attack level as things get worse and more people leave Open.

Gotta pitch your action at the right level, this isn't it so things keep getting worse.

Don't listen, Egy. There's plenty of good hearted PvPers out there.

Frosty, in my view, too many people take 'speaking up at all' as 'combative and dismissive.' It's simply not fair to say that.

 

[frostypaw]

Edit: it's interesting to see my personal hypothesis playing out; watching all the solo/group players swarm Egy like a pack of hyenas in the hopes of culling a lion cub from the pride before he has a chance to solidify in his opinions. It's pretty funny, really. It's too late, though. He's already beyond your abilities to tear him down. The lions win this round

This is hilarious! Nobody's trying to "cull" anything by talking about how the situation got like this. It's just the weirdest worldview ever.