Why is 'space legs' so technically difficult?

[-VR- Max Factor]

Sorry but I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

It sounds like some sort of deflection from the fact that FD originaly advertised multicrew as having certain features and only told us about the severely downgraded version a few months before multicrew actually launched. Which is exactly what happened. When I purchased Horizons I paid $45 USD for it and multicrew was described as having features that were never implemented and have not been added in the 15 months since 2.3 launched.

Which is exactly what you said didn't happen. Do you not read your own posts. You said they had described something we didn't get a month and a half before it dropped. I said that was not true and it wasn't.

I never said you were wrong about the overall premise. This is all in your own head. You change your stance on things when you realise that your are wrong and then say you were saying this from the beginning. I have seen you do this a number of times.

It's called not accepting when you have made a mistake.

What I questioned was missing features. There are none. Multicrew is one feature. It's just a feature that had to be cut down from what they originally planned but it isn't missing. Parts of the feature is missing from what they originally planned which I don't deny and never have done.

 

[Barking_Mad]

My only hope at this point is to see Elite get a modest amount of development effort instead of the almost complete lack of investment we've been seeing from them for the past 2.5 years since Horizons launched. I'm not expecting anything "good" from Elite but I would still like to see a minimum viable product version of space legs. Not because I want yet another minimum viable product feature but simply because FD is going to either give us nothing or a rudimentary version of space legs and I'd rather get something from them instead of nothing.

Armchair dev is armchair dev.

 

[Devari]

Which is exactly what you said didn't happen. Do you not read your own posts. You said they had described something we didn't get a month and a half before it dropped. I said that was not true and it wasn't.

I never said you were wrong about the overall premise. This is all in your own head. You change your stance on things when you realise that your are wrong and then say you were saying this from the beginning. I have seen you do this a number of times.

It's called not accepting when you have made a mistake.

There's no "mistake". The community (very correctly) expected that FD was working on those core features, right up until a few months before multicrew launched, because that was what FD told them they were making. They didn't tell us any different until a few months before multicrew launched which means their original statements were considered valid right up until they "clarified" them, or rather, admitted they weren't actually going to follow through with those clearly stated features. The devs kept discussing multicrew as if those original plans were still happening, right up until a few months before it launched.

If I tell you about a house I'm building, about the kitchen, how many bedrooms and bathrooms, the double garage and so on, then you are going to expect those features. If I don't tell you anything different right up until a couple of months before the house is finished, you are going to expect that all of those features are still being built. If I then suddnely tell you a couple of months before the house is delivered that those features aren't happening, I don't get to say "well I told you about those plans 1.5 years ago" as if that somehow invalidates your expectations. If I continue to talk about the house as if nothing has changed then I am intentionally misleading you by doing so. The expectation is that that original plan is still happening and if I don't tell you about changes until a few months before delivery then I am still held to those original standards.

What I questioned was missing features. There are none. Multicrew is one feature. It's just a feature that had to be cut down from what they originally planned but it isn't missing. Parts of the feature is missing from what they originally planned which I don't deny and never have done.

That is utter nonsense. If I tell you multicrew will do several things, including non-combat features, and it does not do this then the feature is incomplete or missing. Saying "well they delivered multicrew, so it's a feature on a list" is meaningless if the standard is dramatically below what was expected.

It's like you're trying to make a politician's argument about what FD "technically" delivered when that has no impact on whether we got was they actually described. We very clearly did not and that is a fact you're trying very hard to avoid.

 

[Devari]

Armchair dev is armchair dev.

Last time I checked I was a customer who expected Braben and FD would deliver on their original development plans for the game.

I don't need to be any sort of dev, armchair or otherwise, to want to see space legs in some sort of playable form.

 

[Eymerich]

Last time I checked I was a customer who expected Braben and FD would deliver on their original development plans for the game.

I don't need to be any sort of dev, armchair or otherwise, to want to see space legs in some sort of playable form.

Then, I fear, you'll be very disappointed….

 

[Devari]

Then, I fear, you'll be very disappointed….

That is why I have set my expectations extremely low, i.e., really nothing more than an animated holo-me avatar with a hitbox and laser pistol that can walk around ship cockpits and planets. I am not even asking for a "good" version of space legs here. Really just something on par with what we got for the SRV.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There's no "mistake". The community (very correctly) expected that FD was working on those core features, right up until a few months before multicrew launched, because that was what FD told them they were making. They didn't tell us any different until a few months before multicrew launched which means their original statements were considered valid right up until they "clarified" them, or rather, admitted they weren't actually going to follow through with those clearly stated features. The devs kept discussing multicrew as if those original plans were still happening, right up until a few months before it launched.

If I tell you about a house I'm building, about the kitchen, how many bedrooms and bathrooms, the double garage and so on, then you are going to expect those features. If I don't tell you anything different right up until a couple of months before the house is finished, you are going to expect that all of those features are still being built. If I then suddnely tell you a couple of months before the house is delivered that those features aren't happening, I don't get to say "well I told you about those plans 1.5 years ago" as if that somehow invalidates your expectations. If I continue to talk about the house as if nothing has changed then I am intentionally misleading you by doing so. The expectation is that that original plan is still happening and if I don't tell you about changes until a few months before delivery then I am still held to those original standards.



That is utter nonsense. If I tell you multicrew will do several things, including non-combat features, and it does not do this then the feature is incomplete or missing. Saying "well they delivered multicrew, so it's a feature on a list" is meaningless if the standard is dramatically below what was expected.

It's like you're trying to make a politician's argument about what FD "technically" delivered when that has no impact on whether we got was they actually described. We very clearly did not and that is a fact you're trying very hard to avoid.

Stop moving goal posts. It shows your desperation. The only person being the corrupt politicion is you, but you cant see it can you. You are so full of yourself that you cannot except when you're wrong about something.

I'm outa this pointless conversation as you don't want a conversation at all. You just want to force your viewpoint down people's throats, even when they are flawed.

 

[Devari]

Stop moving goal posts. It shows your desperation. The only person being the corrupt politicion is you, but you cant see it can you. You are so full of yourself that you cannot except when you're wrong about something.

I'm out a this pointless conversation as you don't want a conversation at all. You just want to force your viewpoint for people's throats, even when they are flawed.

Sorry but your personal attacks really aren't contributing to the discussion here.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Sorry but your personal attacks really aren't contributing to the discussion here.

There is no discussion with you. You cannot have a discussion with someone whos viewpoint is so rigid that they cant fathom that they could ever be wrong.

 

[ilo]

back to the topic, where is OP and its rockstar friends when needed!!

 

[knowles2]

The problem is that most of the expansions we've gotten since 2.0 have been rubbish either due to missing features, bugs or some sort of gameplay limitation or flaw. Even the features I personally enjoy, like SLFs, have been delivered with severe gameplay flaws where we need to grind an NPC pilot up from harmless and then lose them instantly on ship destruction. It's like FD can't even give us an enjoyable feature without tying it to some sort of grind that ruins what could have otherwise been a good gameplay experience.

They aren't flaws they are design decisions you don't like.

An it clearly there so that NPCs are seen as throwaway things that players can easily replace without a second thought. Plus it adds risks to the game and frankly this game doesn't have enough risks.

 

[ilo]

and frankly this game doesn't have enough risks.

just whispering 'pvp' to a solo player..

 

[Devari]

They aren't flaws they are design decisions you don't like.

An it clearly there so that NPCs are seen as throwaway things that players can easily replace without a second thought. Plus it adds risks to the game and frankly this game doesn't have enough risks.

If it were a "design decision" it should have been consistent. It wasn't so that's why I'm calling it a flaw. Every other game mechanic in Elite is designed to reduce or minimize risks in some manner, including providing an immediate replacement for custom-Engineered modules when you rebuy your ship. It makes no sense either from a gameplay perspective or a lore perspective to lose an NPC pilot. That is a serious gameplay flaw because it wasn't designed with a coherent and logical connection to the other existing game mechanics.

If you want to argue that ship destruction should have more consequences, so should griefing, and the C&P rework has done nothing to fix that either. It's another inherently flawed game mechanic which doesn't actually work properly or achieve its stated gameplay purpose.

Elite is a game that is literally is filled with severe flaws from a gameplay standpoint, it's almost like you can't stop seeing them because they're so obvious.

 

[krylite]

ED is a great game, despite perceived flaws or otherwise. Its spaceship galactic simulation scope in the game is unmatched and "has now set the bar so high, that it has pulled ahead of the competition by decades" .And I'm willing to give them more time, however more years needed to bring out spacelegs in an inspired and more detailed form. In the months before multicrew was released the details were vague and they didn't really seem to promise more than the basics. And I'm fine with it currently knowing it'll probably be improved more (other than the upcoming 3.3 new mining & exploration mechanics) once spacelegs come into gear which by its nature will offer a bigger infrastructure to base the npc and multicrew aspect of the game on. Ed and Braben basically said in the 3.1 launch stream that there was further development in the "years" to come, and new things they would like to talk about but couldn't until it was more "ready" and in a good "position" to do so. I'd urge anyone who hasn't seen and heard this segment of the stream to do so here.

 

[Devari]

First - i can't believe this thread is still going.

Second - you are right, more or less. I've just returned from guardian structures where common practice is to log on and off to reset the site. Think about that. There's no way re-logging was intended gameplay. FDev clearly know everyone feels they have to do it. Have they questioned why? Clearly the answer is due to grind. It has to be. Because the alternative is hours spent jumping to another site which people just aren't prepared to do. The materials required for weapons are easy to come by (aside from the data) but there's so many of them needed. I've never played a game before where logging off and on is defacto part of the gameplay. How anyone can view this as anything other than a failure for a game designer evades me. FDev just accept it.

As an analogue, i write, produce and release music. This would be like me having a track with an awful middle section and saying to people - just fast forward this part, your meant to, it's part of the song to fast forward.

Having said all this, i did re-log and picked up 5 blueprints and a load of mats. So who's the chump here?

On the topic of relogging to reset instances, since the 3.05 patch there are now no longer any base timers on the Medium-security settlement bases. There used to be a 2-week reset timer which required you to fly between different bases and you couldn't repeat any given base until the 2-week reset timer counted down fully for that base. That has now completely changed with the 3.05 patch and now you can just log in and out after each run to reset the base data points. Prior to this happening myself and Djadjok had put in quite a bit of effort to optimize the base runs and NeoTron developed an ED Pathfinder tool to automatically chart optimal routes to travel between the bases. Now that is all unnecessary because you can do all the base runs you want by staying at a single base and simply logging in and out over and over. I can't imagine why FD would intentionally remove the reset timer since it has applied to the bases since Horizons launched but apparently they removed it and now the relog method is by far the fastest way to farm MEF.

 

[LuxAeterna]

This is what I think of the whole "space legs" thing on this forum, enjoy (all 10 hours)! And you're welcome in advance for getting this song stuck in your head!

♪♫♬ It's the discussion that never ends ♪♫♬
[video=youtube;0U2zJOryHKQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ[/video]

 

[Sylveria]

If Frontier never intended for Space Legs to be implemented, they wouldn't have bothered including a staircase on the Krait MkII (you know, the latest ship released) they would have just made it enclosed like almost every other ship before it.

Space Legs "resistance" confirmed. Good luck with that.

It will be implemented, and it will be optional. For Space Barbie haters, you needn't worry.

For those who feel as if Frontier should be working on "other things" that you think they should be working on, please remember everyone has their own opinion, and should you wish them to respect yours, perhaps some mutual respect is in order.

There's lots that can be improved in ED. We all want improvement, else we wouldn't be here.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Because the alternative is hours spent jumping to another site which people just aren't prepared to do.

If you see tasks you do in game as sort of pinjata then of course you are not prepared to do. But why do you really want that sweet Guardians tech? Just because everybody else does it?

 

[Wicked]

Going to quote my comment from yesterday...

Who knows what Frontier are working on that they haven't already announced. Even if they're working on making space legs viable behind the scenes, it will likely not be in full development as the team seems to be focused on the Beyond Series. However, I've noticed that the Beyond Series is more than just content updates but also work on changing core game mechanics in preparation for what lies ahead. Hence why they've been doing focused feedback for multiple topics, as it seems they want to iron out core aspects of the game so the game can be ready for what they want to implement in the future. The game isn't ready for space legs in it's current state. Maybe Beyond will aid in making it a reality?

If anyone is passionate about wanting space legs, which includes myself... wouldn't you want it to be implemented when the game is ready for it?

The game in it's current state clearly isn't ready for it, but Frontier seem to be making a progress in making it ready for whatever is to come with the help of the Beyond series of updates. Some think Frontier will never implement space legs. Some think Frontier will submit to the community and will release space legs just as it is without any substance. Firstly, Space legs is one of the most highly requested features by the community. It's always been in David Braben's core vision for Elite. Secondly, Frontier have said they will talk about space legs when it's ready. As I've said, who knows what Frontier is developing unless you work in Elite's development team. They may not be working on space legs, or they may be working on it. The topic of space legs in Elite has been one that has been going on for years, which means a lot of the community is evidently passionate about wanting ability to walk around in the game; however the community won't know anything regarding the development of space legs until Frontier are ready to talk about it.

 

[Arithon]

What do yo mean by human scale modelling?

Using the camera, zoom in to the building next to a station pad until you clip inside it. The models are very rough and textures very basic at that close range. There's no furniture or details at present (because it isn't needed).
Fine for Elite when you're 50-100m away from most objects in your ship, but currently the only detailed models are the cockpits. Building interiors and station interiors are a world away from the detail level they would need to be (and no doubt Frontier devs would allow to go out the door) for a walking player experience.
That's a LOT of work. Not just a switch to throw.