New Regions – Why not use the ones already established by the exploration community?
- Thread starter Corbin Moran
- Start date
Personally, I've found that in-game activities around the development of the 3rd-party tools I've written have done more to keep me playing and enjoying the game than anything else. So the two aren't necessarily in conflict.I bet these fans would love to play the game instead of maintaining missing game-tools.
That said, while I wrote the tools I did because they weren't available in-game, the majority of what they do is very niche and would be both an incredibly low priority for Frontier to directly support and be much harder for them to provide a tool for than it is for me to do it [1]. People might feel differently about tools which provide a more general use service.
[1] Because if I want to analyse X I just code it, whereas if they want to enable me to analyse X in-game they have to make a huge amount of extra interfaces and data sources generally available so that I can construct a generic multi-factor analysis. Expecting "SQL Server Reporting Services for Elite Dangerous" is not reasonable
so the galaxy is becoming more accessible to people who never did or will leave the Bubble? C'mon!
Signed with both hands.
Signed with both hands.
Indeed. The GMP team takes submissions from players or comes up with their own, as it has been done with the region names AFAIK. Since the GMP is included on EDSM, it's easy to mistake it as being part of it, but it's two separate teams. Then there also instances when people mistake it for the entire exploration community, leaving out console communities, non-English communities, and so on.
An excellent post with some very good points made. One mistake you've made, that VerticalBlank noted just above: it's the GMP, not EDSM. As far as I know, neither EDSM nor GMP use any licences, but since the GMP is hosted on this forum, the rules here would apply. Question is, since these weren't submitted for inclusion (like the CGs and so on that you mentioned were) in the game, how would that go? That's a legal question, something that Frontier's lawyers would have to examine - and that does have its costs.
Also, now that you mention this, we'd have to consider that proposal 3 is brings its own complications when compared to the other two. Those suggesting it want not just names incorporated, but an entire map layout. Question is, who made that (not just the picture itself, but each and every region name on it) and under what licence(s) did they publish it? Another thing to examine. And another one: since the GMP's content is also used on third-party sites, chiefly EDSM, does that complicate things further?
Indeed. It's possible, but due to the legal costs involved (Frontier has to have their lawyers examine it), it's likely something to be avoided. I mean, if you told your manager(s) that you want to use some fan-made stuff in the product but legal will have to examine this, they'd likely tell you to just come up with your own content.
Considering using some of the names, especially ones that would be pretty common, should be no problem, but using stuff en masse is a whole different matter.
After this, I'll be more curious what Frontier will end up doing.
On a different note, a legal curiosity that's tangentially related: when Drew Wagar was writing a book which included the Salomé event in-game, it caused him some headache when the Commander who dealt the final blow to the in-game CMDR Salomé turned out to be named CMDR Harry Potter. Whoops. In the end, they agreed to use his forum account name in the book, which was Besieger.
Last edited:
Another option, albeit less inclusive, would be for the good folks on the ED Discovery project, or hell, even a different project all together, to come up with a third party overlay.
For me personally, I likely wouldn't use the community names in any official capacity unless they were fully included in the game to the level of missions, rumours, CODEX entries, even if Frontier included an optional overlay, simply because of standardized communication. If I am telling someone where I am or what I am doing, I'd likely just use the primary nomenclature, even if it is as simple as Sector 37 or what not. It also seems as if there is at least some rhyme and reason to Frontiers naming convention to where given a sector name, one does not really have to have the entire map memorized to have a quick rough idea of where a location is, whereas with the GMP naming, there is no intuitive way to gauge where a place is without having it all memorized.
From a role play standpoint in threads I might make detailing my adventures, I may use them, as I have in the past, but for that purpose, I don't really need anything in game as I can just pull it up any time I want already.
/signed
/signed
I can't help it, I must say what I think
But first of all: I love this game and thank you FDev for your work. It feels like whole my life I was waiting for this game and you have made it. I am really grateful for that.
And now about the new Milky Way map:
If we are talking about geographical regions wherever you look on the map they are usually aligned with natural borders. There are clearly regions with some natural borders in the Milky Way and the way the new regions are being implemented looks like FD thought 'We'll cut them the way we want' and somehow it looks super artificial. FD never bothered to add regions, but the 'market can't stand the void' so the players community did it. And they do look like something humans would come up with. To add more sense to my argument I'll use a picture
https://ibb.co/iVz5WV
And now we hear that all that work was for nothing. 'Oh, so you like what you've created and got used to it, that's cute. Let us do it our way with no respect to your work, cartography, natural borders and history'.
I am.... really upset (sobs)
Another thing is using numbers instead of names. No, it's not easier, it's dumb. Yeah, 42 sectors, nice one, I see what you did there. But... Consider two sentences:
1. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Sector 22. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Sector 38. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
or...
2. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
See that? See? Numbers are rubbish. Maybe we should have mix of Numbers and Names. But just numbers? C'mon...
Don't tell me that English names offend non-English speakers. I don't feel offended by the Latin or ancient Greek constellation names. Or Indian, German, whatever. Naming places is and has always been the privilege of the explorer. English words look fine, besides names that the community came up with are not really English only, they do reflect the way real stellar bodies were named. And English is the most common language in ED, period.
Look, I appreciate that you FDevs are trying to make things better and that you do it after listening to the community. But after you do it looks like you lock yourselves in a dark cellar, come up with a plan and then force it. Who is going to use the galaxy map the most? Explorers. Who is using the existing region names the most? Explorers. Who is going to appreciate the new system the most? Erm... maybe soooome explorers, but mostly frightened and confused Bubbles'.
And it's funny because I read somewhere that a member of FDev said that 'If you can't fit a Beluga into a Coriolis manually you shouldn't be flying big ships.' Mate, exactly, I totally agree, this is a space simulation, being Elite means something. That is why I am so upset - the new system doesn't look like simulation, looks like procedurally-generated for a game you can play on your smartphone.
Seems like you never even considered that what community have done is worth a penny. And TBH people who do those things are your most faithful players, those who really look for the immersion in Elite Dangerous. And now instead of Milky way that could become more real we get Tetris bricks with numbers...
OK, I am sorry if I was a bit harsh, I don't wan't to offend anyone and I don't want to look like a moaner. I am just a little bit (or maybe a bit more) disappointed with the map, the rest is a big step forward. I love ED, enjoy every second I spend in the game, I will keep playing it and the whole Q4 update is something I was really waiting for, looks great, congrats guys and keep it up!!!
RoC! o7
But first of all: I love this game and thank you FDev for your work. It feels like whole my life I was waiting for this game and you have made it. I am really grateful for that.
And now about the new Milky Way map:
If we are talking about geographical regions wherever you look on the map they are usually aligned with natural borders. There are clearly regions with some natural borders in the Milky Way and the way the new regions are being implemented looks like FD thought 'We'll cut them the way we want' and somehow it looks super artificial. FD never bothered to add regions, but the 'market can't stand the void' so the players community did it. And they do look like something humans would come up with. To add more sense to my argument I'll use a picture
https://ibb.co/iVz5WV
And now we hear that all that work was for nothing. 'Oh, so you like what you've created and got used to it, that's cute. Let us do it our way with no respect to your work, cartography, natural borders and history'.
I am.... really upset (sobs)
Another thing is using numbers instead of names. No, it's not easier, it's dumb. Yeah, 42 sectors, nice one, I see what you did there. But... Consider two sentences:
1. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Sector 22. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Sector 38. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
or...
2. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
See that? See? Numbers are rubbish. Maybe we should have mix of Numbers and Names. But just numbers? C'mon...
Don't tell me that English names offend non-English speakers. I don't feel offended by the Latin or ancient Greek constellation names. Or Indian, German, whatever. Naming places is and has always been the privilege of the explorer. English words look fine, besides names that the community came up with are not really English only, they do reflect the way real stellar bodies were named. And English is the most common language in ED, period.
Look, I appreciate that you FDevs are trying to make things better and that you do it after listening to the community. But after you do it looks like you lock yourselves in a dark cellar, come up with a plan and then force it. Who is going to use the galaxy map the most? Explorers. Who is using the existing region names the most? Explorers. Who is going to appreciate the new system the most? Erm... maybe soooome explorers, but mostly frightened and confused Bubbles'.
And it's funny because I read somewhere that a member of FDev said that 'If you can't fit a Beluga into a Coriolis manually you shouldn't be flying big ships.' Mate, exactly, I totally agree, this is a space simulation, being Elite means something. That is why I am so upset - the new system doesn't look like simulation, looks like procedurally-generated for a game you can play on your smartphone.
Seems like you never even considered that what community have done is worth a penny. And TBH people who do those things are your most faithful players, those who really look for the immersion in Elite Dangerous. And now instead of Milky way that could become more real we get Tetris bricks with numbers...
OK, I am sorry if I was a bit harsh, I don't wan't to offend anyone and I don't want to look like a moaner. I am just a little bit (or maybe a bit more) disappointed with the map, the rest is a big step forward. I love ED, enjoy every second I spend in the game, I will keep playing it and the whole Q4 update is something I was really waiting for, looks great, congrats guys and keep it up
!!!RoC! o7
Oh well...let me sort it out...
1. Pending faction-states (as in Inara)
2. Wing-Management (as in Inara...hopefully being implemented with "Squadrons")
3. detailed System Information as in EDDB as well as Trade-Route Planning, Multi-Hop and Loop-Trading, Search for factions, Commodity and Module Search
4. Pre-Exploration-Route-Planning as in EDSM
5. Information-system as in EDPathfinder regarding Surface-POI's
.
.
.
Just to name a few. I'm currently at work, so these are my first thoguts
/signed
We aren't.
Geographical relates to the study of earth. Literally Earth Writing.
You mean Astronomical.
;-) o7
Normally this is absolutely true. Pretty sure Frontier is in the clear, though. The GMP is hosted on the Frontier forums, and these forums have Terms of Service spelled out. Note in particular the last paragraph of Section 4:
This is a rule us open source developers need to be careful about in both directions. Never post anything you might want to keep control over to a third party's service without checking the ToS first.
I was gonna say, pretty sure we all agreed to ToS where all of this becomes the property of Frontier automatically. Someone could potentially mount a legal challenge against the agreement, but that'd depend on local laws, etc.
Ah, I see. That's good then - and good to know. I take it images and such are also covered under "Message", and it should pose no problem if they are also hosted over third-party sites? Unless there were conflicting licenses there, but as far as I'm aware, none of the places that also rehost GMP data have such licenses. (Or, well, any.)
Is it possible that FD could only claim ownership of the link to any graphic posted, not the graphic itself? Think of all those grabbed stills from TV and movies that posters love to include to illustrate points. The copyright owners would probably be quite miffed at FD if they started muscling in on some of these properties.
Any graphic that I've created and used in posts is hosted on my website. If I delete a picture from my site, would FD be entitled to sue me for breach of ToS?
Last edited: