The Fix For Combat Logging (MENU LOG)

[Swizzy o7o7]

The fix for menu combat logging (abusing the 15 second timer.)... is simple.

Reset the timer to 15 seconds upon taking damage.
If you are continuously ANY taking damage, your timer will remain at 15 seconds.

This includes, but not limited to:

-Any incoming player damage.
-Any incoming NPC damage.
-Logging out when critical modules are 'destroyed' (Powerplant, thrusters.)
-Taking any heat damage
-Taking any corrosion damage.
-Taking any hull damage from inanimate objects.

It has been three years since release, and this still isn't fixed. You (FDEV) may not be able to directly solve task killing, but this will solve menu log cheating.

This is a multiplayer game. Fix it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Per Frontier's definition, combat logging does not include use of the delayed menu exit feature (the latter may be used at any time) - they are aware that not all players will agree with their position:

Hello Commanders!

To clarify: the official stance on exiting the game via the menu, at any point, is that it is legitimate. I suspect at some point we may increase the "in danger" countdown, but for now you just have to wait fifteen seconds.

However, we can't speak for how other Commanders view such actions.

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

.... and giving players a method of trolling other players (continually resetting their timer to stop them leaving the game) does not seem to be a reasonable change proposal, in my opinion, anyway.

 

[IcemanAJL]

Definitely a good proposal for helping fight back against cheaters. Might even save Player piracy, or at least make it somewhat more tolerable.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Um, no.

I'm not being held hostage by anyone.

Plus it'll just lead to more clogging.

 

[Swizzy o7o7]

Um, no.

I'm not being held hostage by anyone.

Plus it'll just lead to more clogging.

How so? How could my proposal possibly lead to more combat logging?

 

[Swizzy o7o7]

Per Frontier's definition, combat logging does not include use of the delayed menu exit feature (the latter may be used at any time) - they are aware that not all players will agree with their position:



.... and giving players a method of trolling other players (continually resetting their timer to stop them leaving the game) does not seem to be a reasonable change proposal, in my opinion, anyway.

Nice work on advocating for combat logging.

Curious how ship transfers breaks your immersion, but disappearing when you're about to die, doesn't. Funny that.

"Trolling." You can still wake out, or escape the zone you're taking damage, or just build your ship properly in the first place and git gud. + kill your attacker... But perhaps you have a better solution for 15 second menu cheating?

 

[Micha]

"Trolling." You can still wake out, or escape the zone you're taking damage, or just build your ship properly in the first place and git gud. + kill your attacker... But perhaps you have a better solution for 15 second menu cheating?

That will only start working ("build your ship properly") if they balance combat vs non-combat ships, so that non-combat ships are still viable. Not viable for combat, but viable for flying in general.

Why should combat vessels be able to use EVERY SINGLE SLOT AND UTILITY for combat, but all other ships have to sacrifice 60% or more of their capability purely to survive?

I managed to (barely) survive my last encounter, thanks to some outfitting hints and tips I got, but firstly, full attention wasn't lavished on me until I had already started to make my escape run, and secondly, my ship loadout is significantly impacted by all the defensive stuff on it.

Some defence is necessary for sure, but defence for multi-role is nowhere near enough to survive.

One major issue is defensive module stacking; remove that and you can rebalance the weapons to be less powerful, and then you can have multi-purpose ships which have a chance to escaping while still able to perform their core duty.

An even nerf and you'll still have exactly the same combat against equal loadouts (less defence & less weapons == same engagement), but you've removed the HUGE disparity between pure combat and more general-purpose vessels.

My 2Cr.

----

As for the OP; Menu-logging is NOT combat-logging. Quite apart from some people not wanting to play AGAINST other humans (but still wanting to encounter / play WITH other humans) there are tons of other reasons why someone might need to suddenly AFK - how is it fair that they should suffer a guaranteed rebuy screen under those circumstances? 15s was designed to allow a safe log-off as long as they aren't about to blow up anyway, so can't really be used as a final cop-out in combat.

 

[Swizzy o7o7]

That will only start working ("build your ship properly") if they balance combat vs non-combat ships, so that non-combat ships are still viable. Not viable for combat, but viable for flying in general.

Why should combat vessels be able to use EVERY SINGLE SLOT AND UTILITY for combat, but all other ships have to sacrifice 60% or more of their capability purely to survive?

I managed to (barely) survive my last encounter, thanks to some outfitting hints and tips I got, but firstly, full attention wasn't lavished on me until I had already started to make my escape run, and secondly, my ship loadout is significantly impacted by all the defensive stuff on it.

Some defence is necessary for sure, but defence for multi-role is nowhere near enough to survive.

One major issue is defensive module stacking; remove that and you can rebalance the weapons to be less powerful, and then you can have multi-purpose ships which have a chance to escaping while still able to perform their core duty.

An even nerf and you'll still have exactly the same combat against equal loadouts (less defence & less weapons == same engagement), but you've removed the HUGE disparity between pure combat and more general-purpose vessels.

My 2Cr.

----

As for the OP; Menu-logging is NOT combat-logging. Quite apart from some people not wanting to play AGAINST other humans (but still wanting to encounter / play WITH other humans) there are tons of other reasons why someone might need to suddenly AFK - how is it fair that they should suffer a guaranteed rebuy screen under those circumstances? 15s was designed to allow a safe log-off as long as they aren't about to blow up anyway, so can't really be used as a final cop-out in combat.

Defense is disproportionately stronger than attack in Elite. Do you know why 'balanced' fights tend to last 10's of minutes?
Just because you die in your Coriolis suggested Asp, doesn't mean that it's an imbalance issue. If you have a basic knowledge of how to submit, evade, and highwake, combined with even a slight knowledge of defense mechanics, you can avoid a gank 9 times out of 10.

If you want to play Elite: *Dangerous* (it's in the name), and play in Open mode, you must make sacrifices to survive. And the sacrifices are few. 1. Shield. 2. Boosters. 3. Proper core internals.
That's about it.

Suddenly AFK when they're about to be killed? Or when taking damage? Yeah, right-o hahaha.
The amount of games you can't just quit when you're taking damage is astounding, so why not in Elite?

Post below your current build you nearly died in. (Using Coriolis, or EDSY.)

 

[Sir.Tj]

Nice work on advocating for combat logging.

Curious how ship transfers breaks your immersion, but disappearing when you're about to die, doesn't. Funny that.

"Trolling." You can still wake out, or escape the zone you're taking damage, or just build your ship properly in the first place and git gud. + kill your attacker... But perhaps you have a better solution for 15 second menu cheating?

Sorry but Robert's not advocating Combat Logging.

He's clearly stating that the exit to menu timer is an approved way to exit the game.

 

[Slange Lands]

Why don't more PvPers play CQC? They are much less likely to encounter cloggers. Although CTF and TDM are difficult to find a match, simple DM is not.

 

[varonica]

Making it impossible to exit via the menu will mean people will automatically reach for the network cable/alt-F4, whichever floats their boat, so any proposal that makes menu logging impossible will ipso-facto create more combat logging, and pointing this fact out isn't advocating for combat logging, it's just demonstrating how poorly thought out your suggestion is.

 

[Florenus]

The fix for menu combat logging (abusing the 15 second timer.)... is simple.

Reset the timer to 15 seconds upon taking damage.
If you are continuously ANY taking damage, your timer will remain at 15 seconds.

This includes, but not limited to:

-Any incoming player damage.
-Any incoming NPC damage.
-Logging out when critical modules are 'destroyed' (Powerplant, thrusters.)
-Taking any heat damage
-Taking any corrosion damage.
-Taking any hull damage from inanimate objects.

It has been three years since release, and this still isn't fixed. You (FDEV) may not be able to directly solve task killing, but this will solve menu log cheating.

This is a multiplayer game. Fix it.

I'll be all about preventing players from logging out of combat others initiaded, when they'll be unable to exit the game or avoid talking to me when I'll initiate contact in-game.
You want to fight me? I want you to talk to me pretty.

 

[Evoflash]

Why don't more PvPers play CQC? They are much less likely to encounter cloggers. Although CTF and TDM are difficult to find a match, simple DM is not.

This. I've often wondered too. CQC is an exquisite combat-flight experience.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Its not trolling. People need to learn to lose. What good is powerplay going to be if those guys are carrying merits just log out.

Its not trolling when there are other modes to begin with.

Jesus christ.

 

[lokvette]

Is it that time of the month again, ill get the popcorn in.

Per Frontier's definition, combat logging does not include use of the delayed menu exit feature (the latter may be used at any time) - they are aware that not all players will agree with their position:



.... and giving players a method of trolling other players (continually resetting their timer to stop them leaving the game) does not seem to be a reasonable change proposal, in my opinion, anyway.

/Thread.

 

[JonesTheFilm]

Its not trolling. People need to learn to lose. What good is powerplay going to be if those guys are carrying merits just log out.

Its not trolling when there are other modes to begin with.

Jesus christ.

One problem with this game is we have a bunch of people complaining about combat logging (to which the answer is often "there are other modes") but then we have another bunch of people (which seems to include a considerable number of the first bunch) complaining that people shouldn't be allowed a solo mode and everyone should play in open.

I've said it before but Elite Dangerous is a game that doesn't know what it is or what it wants to be, a sim, an RPG, a combat game, an MMO ...who knows?

On top of that it has a player base of wildy differing ages, expectations and play-styles, and the game itself has a renowned history which it's trying to hold onto at the same time as trying to be relevant in the modern gaming world. It's all a bit of a mess really and it's way past the stage where the developers can do much about it other than stick to the status quo.

Hence we're stuck with these ongoing arguments and constant threads about modes, PVP vs PVE, combat logging, etc, etc.

Enjoy the rest of this umpteenth copy of a combat-logging thread everyone, I'll see you all later in the next new Open vs Solo thread no doubt.

 

[Tiili]

This timer is good, it allows for a legit way to take a dump mid combat if nature calls. If your opponent can't blow up an idling ship in 15 seconds, they couldn't stop it from high waking either.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

How so? How could my proposal possibly lead to more combat logging?

Run it through your head,

You interdict someone, but they were just planning on leaving, for real Ife reasons, doorbell, projectile vomit, work, etc (before you rudely interrupted ), they pull up the menu to quit, but the countdown never ends.

Only viable solution left to leave the game is pull the plug.

Or get in to a potentially lengthy battle or escape situation, and miss their parcel, or be late for work. Or end up covered in vomit. Lol

You can't really expect people to have their life dictated for them because you wanna pew pew.

Of course, people will abuse it.


I'm fine if they want to separate the combat timer in to various categories, like PvP, PvE, and environmental.

PvP could have a 30~ second timer, PvE stays at 15 (they don't care). And environmental (like guardian sites)can be zero, because it actually makes no sense that you need to wait because nothing is around to shoot you yet. Lol

 

[Lateralus]

This. I've often wondered too. CQC is an exquisite combat-flight experience.

CQC is unpopular because you can't waggle your e-peen in it, it creates no drama, no salt.. It's just a training mode really (for basics only, there is much more to PvP than you can learn in CQC).

I keep saying this but if they added a main ship dueling module to CQC players would use it and it would cause Elites' e-sports side to take off massively.

 

[Asp Explorer]

It has been three years since release, and this still isn't fixed. You (FDEV) may not be able to directly solve task killing, but this will solve menu log cheating.

This is a multiplayer game. Fix it.

It isn't broken, so a fix is not required. The current situation - the modes, legitimate exit via menu etc, allow players the freedom to play as they want, when they want, and exit cleanly as they see fit. You are not paying them for their time, and have absolutely no ability to dictate how they play.

Now, if a mechanism is introduced to disallow players to log-off-legally as they choose, and forces an open connection when it has been explicitly ordered to close - it's no longer a game. It's malware - and will be treated as such. Some players don't take kindly to their machines and infrastructure being used in a disapproved manner - and will take great delight in terminating those connections in many and varied interesting and, potentially catastrophic ways that the player demanding the connection be maintained may not have considered, and has absolutely no control over.

Leave it as it is - everyone wins