Too much customisation?

[OriginalBadBoy]

Let me quality the question a little more. Are Frontier is danger of making the game too customisable and intimidating for the casual player?

Obliviously the more customisation the better of course, as that will allow people to come out with some outlandish designs. And of course those can be shared with the community. And of course Fronter will add an amount of pre-built stuff for the base game themselves.

However I can still see someone coming into the game and being very intimidated by it, even given the above. As it currently stands (in its alpha state) I would say the game is in no way 'casual' friendly. Which is no real surprise of course, its the current expert 'builders' who are the ones that are giving the proper feedback, but therein lies the danger that experts will of course want expert tools and not necessarily think about the casual player. For the casuals things need to be a lot simpler than they currently are, along with tutorials etc.

Of course we have a long way to go and I wouldn't expect the nice things like tutorials to start appearing until well into Beta. But even so, its almost like there needs to be two modes for the game (interface wise), simplistic mode and expert mode.

This is a valid concern is it not?

 

[Dalenotchip]

Let me quality the question a little more. Are Frontier is danger of making the game too customisable and intimidating for the casual player?

Obliviously the more customisation the better of course, as that will allow people to come out with some outlandish designs. And of course those can be shared with the community. And of course Fronter will add an amount of pre-built stuff for the base game themselves.

However I can still see someone coming into the game and being very intimidated by it, even given the above. As it currently stands (in its alpha state) I would say the game is in no way 'casual' friendly. Which is no real surprise of course, its the current expert 'builders' who are the ones that are giving the proper feedback, but therein lies the danger that experts will of course want expert tools and not necessarily think about the casual player. For the casuals things need to be a lot simpler than they currently are, along with tutorials etc.

Of course we have a long way to go and I wouldn't expect the nice things like tutorials to start appearing until well into Beta. But even so, its almost like there needs to be two modes for the game (interface wise), simplistic mode and expert mode.

This is a valid concern is it not?

I understand what you're saying. And I sometimes stare at the blank sandbox and with all the choices I just stare not knowing where to even start.

However, after they add the management part with clear starting parks and objectives to achieve I think they will be fine. And, if they make the using of others blueprints a very user friendly experience even the least creative (custom building wise) will find the game a perfect balance.

 

[Curlyriff]

I believe it is. I actually haven't done a lot because I only want a game to play casually.

This isn't even because I can't do the things but I want to get stuck in with the actual game in the management side as I spend all day creating buildings and doing drawings so to do something different while looking pretty is what I will need so without any pre-built or blue print usable in scenario I probably would not play it all that often tbh.

The terrain I like doing but once it gets to buildings I am just like meh that will do I can't be bothered after having drawn/designed/model buildings all day at work.

 

[thelude007]

When the game ships and has the pre-built shops and blueprints ready, I think it will help the 'casual' players immensely. Right now in the alpha there is no pre-built things for us to use. We have to build everything from scratch.

 

[simemo]

I was going to be a bit condescending but then I got the point youre making but I still think the answer is 'no'. The whole point of games like this is that you start with nothing basicly but for those who might have never touched any kind of building games before, there will be prebuilt maps included like we have now and even the basics of the game are very easy to get down.

When the game ships and has the pre-built shops and blueprints ready, I think it will help the 'casual' players immensely. Right now in the alpha there is no pre-built things for us to use. We have to build everything from scratch.

We have prebuilt flat rides ready to go and all the shops and toilets work perfectly well on their own, you dont need to 'build' anything to get it to work, lay a path, plop down some flat rides, add a couple of shops and a toilet and your park is running, might not look brilliant but citybuilding games start with nothing and I never saw anyone saying they were 'intimidating'.

 

[TRS]

I suppose I would have to say yes and no !

Yes--It is if the casual gamer wants to tackle some of the great structures that the community has built.
No--The building is pretty strait forward and simple if you want to build simple stryctures.

 

[Coasterfan312]

What I'd say to this is that Planet Coaster is, as they say, a 'coaster park simulation'. I can't actually recall anyone at Frontier calling it a 'game' at any point (although I would still class it as one, especially if it's going to have scenarios and/or a campaign).

I don't think it's meant to be super easy to play, although I can't see many people having problems using any of the editors. There's no minimum amount of stuff you have to do - you can just plonk down a few walls and roofs on one grid if you so wish, and keep angle snap on when making paths and coasters.

 

[breezerHOG1]

I hope the devs are reading lol...

I agree very much with the OP. I consider myself a long time hardcore gamer (of many genres) and I in fact consider myself to be average at best, if not even less then average, at RCT or PC. I have friends and family who are NOT avid gamers who much prefer classic RCT over RCT3 and I wish I could get them to play PC but it is not casual friendly, as the OP said. In My Opinion, the current UI could use some improvements, the path system is a bit wonkey, its not bad and I know it will improve. I know shops will return but I still wish things were simpler for the novice player... Basic aspects of queue placement is my biggest annoyance for newbie players (which is why I created the thread complaining about ticket booths) found here

So, I am in complete agreement with the OP, despite the fact that 90% of the forum users here will disagree. I guess thats ok though, because PC will still be great. But I really hope campaign/scenario mode is very very user friendly for those who are very new to the game (but not dumbed down I still want a deep and engrossing campaign mode, better than RCT3s). There is a difference between dumbed down and casual friendly. casual friendly understands how to introduce certain elements within a set time frame, instead of all at once like when you jump into sandbox mode. Its a tough arguement, do you lock sandbox mode until players reach a certain part of the game? No because that would rage the hardcore fans... lol, thats why the devs have to hit a tight balance with the campaign mode. Most people agree RCT1 had the best campaigns

I also really hope for multiplayer first person mode (which I think is actually in the works YAY!) but a lot of the hardcore fans actually do NOT want this and it annoys me because it will increase the player base. There are a lot more casual gamers and the market proves that with all the COD clones out there (I hate COD by the way) but a game like PC needs to target both the hardcore and the casual. RCT1 and RCT2 were more casual IMO where as RCT3 was a bit more hardcore, and I hope PC hits just the right balance but its definitely leading way more hardcore at the moment, but I think that could possibly change in 6-8 months from now and in a few years will never be able to look back at RCT the same! lol

the way i look at things is like this: I remember picking up RCT1 for the first time, without needing to watch tutorials, and I was able to master the game because I enjoyed its campaign. with RCT2 and RCT3 I didnt really get "into" the campaigns. And it wasn't untill many years after youtube came around, that I saw how people created such amazing works of art in RCT3. RCT3 and PC require tutorials to understand how to make complex designs. Well, I know some people figure this crap out on there own, but not everybody has the time for that. The point is, without a robust campaign mode, sandbox will destroy the casual arena and that market of gamers will drop off in play time, thus not adapting there skills without "mimicking" the pros.

customization destroys creativity because creativity comes from limitations. just look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ibuPTtYtoU <-- this is not intended to say PC should be like RCT! im saying campaign mode needs creative challenges... chris sawyer was a madman!

Thanks for posting OP [happy]

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

What I'd say to this is that Planet Coaster is, as they say, a 'coaster park simulation'. I can't actually recall anyone at Frontier calling it a 'game' at any point (although I would still class it as one, especially if it's going to have scenarios and/or a campaign).

I don't think it's meant to be super easy to play, although I can't see many people having problems using any of the editors. There's no minimum amount of stuff you have to do - you can just plonk down a few walls and roofs on one grid if you so wish, and keep angle snap on when making paths and coasters.

I don't disagree that basic buildings are not that difficult to do, but it can still be intimidating for a newbie, or someone who doesn't care for such things.

I would also be extremely worried and disappointed if Frontier is just going with a 'no game' attitude to this. People do play these games for the fun of it, not just for building as well. Thats what made RCT3 so good, it had everything, for everybody, not just for the park builders.

EDIT: Also (and I am not having a go at anyone here) there is a danger of having the attitude of 'well its not difficult'. Because in the end some may find it easier than others. I suspect the majority of the people here so far as people that are fairly comfortable with what we have already. Its very easy for someone to say that when they aree used to the sorts of tools / interface we currently have.

The point being that the game needs to appeal to as many people as possible, what Frontier are creating here is something that has not been done before (in the Theme Park space anyway). Its not like you can compare it to something like City Skyline for example, creating cities for those are easy, but can be more complicated if you let them be.

 

[widlanquebec]

It's a valid point of view... I must agree that right now, without any tutorials, campaign, etc. to discover the building tools, it can be intimidating. But when tutorials will be make, the path system improvements that will still come, same for building tools, I've hope that it will be simpler for new players. Also, when the management will appear, it will give other goals than build things, so it will have a more clear vision.

A major thing I hope to see improvements is building tools for creating buildings with different angles. It's tough and time consuming to do it for the moment. I prefer the management part in the game and the limitations of building tools let me to not play the game a lot. Let's hope they will add this functionality and simplify the building.

 

[Coasterfan312]

It is in alpha still, so the only people playing are people who are really interested, and therefore probably quite experienced, in the genre. To be honest I think that'll be the main audience when the game comes out too. If you're gonna buy/play a theme park building simulator, you're probably going to be someone who likes building theme parks. For those people it doesn't seem that intimidating at all.

Just be glad it's not as complex as NoLimits. That's intimidating.

 

[breezerHOG1]

It is in alpha still, so the only people playing are people who are really interested, and therefore probably quite experienced, in the genre. To be honest I think that'll be the main audience when the game comes out too. If you're gonna buy/play a theme park building simulator, you're probably going to be someone who likes building theme parks.

Theres a lot more people who would rather ride a coaster than build it. And a lot of fans will just watch others play the game. These are the fans this OP is directed towards, the quiet majority who dont live breathe and eat PC forums. The hardcore fans already have the amazing game they want, now lets expand the audience [happy] plus more slaes = more revenue = better addons

What I'd say to this is that Planet Coaster is, as they say, a 'coaster park simulation'. I can't actually recall anyone at Frontier calling it a 'game' at any point (although I would still class it as one, especially if it's going to have scenarios and/or a campaign).

even complex programming tools can be rebuilt to be more user friendly..

 

[Coasterfan312]

People who want to ride coasters can download parks or play the built-in ones (although I don't who would buy PC just to ride other people's rides). People who want to watch the game would use YouTube. They're not really audiences who would be intimidated by the game.

I don't think NoLimits 2 could be made more user friendly without losing some of its effectiveness. As far as I can tell, the same applies to PC. I'd change my opinion if I heard a good example of how something could be simplified, but until then I think what we have works fine.

That's my input. You don't have to agree with it, nor argue against it. Just let it sit here and be considered.

 

[gregorburns]

I can't actually recall anyone at Frontier calling it a 'game' at any point

From planetcoaster.com:

Planet Coaster is the future of coaster park simulation games.

[cool]

 

[Coasterfan312]

Oh yeah. I literally looked at that earlier today. Lmao.

Still, they treat it like a simulator most of the time. That was what I was trying to get across.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

I get your point, but I think once the management features and blueprints are in it will be fine. I love these games, but half the time I wouldn't bother with creating massive building structures as it required so much work in the past. Planet Coaster has actually made it easier and quicker to get good results so if anything I think it will inspire the more casual gamer.

 

[Coasterfan312]

I don't even know how scanerios would work without a global grid. Should be interesting.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

It is in alpha still, so the only people playing are people who are really interested, and therefore probably quite experienced, in the genre. To be honest I think that'll be the main audience when the game comes out too.

See, that's a dangerous attitude to have in my opinion, and this is not directed at you all so please don't take it personally. Its somewhat elitist to think like that. If all that Frontier care about is 'that' audience then this game will die on its feet before it has even begun.

Of course there will be a 'core' audience for the game, and most of those people will be either sim nuts, coaster nuts or a mixture of both. That goes for any game genre in the end. But Frontier need to cater for the rest as well. There will be plenty of people out there who may have never played a Theme Park sim before so for them this is their introduction to it. You don't want to put them off (or the casuals) because the game is too complicated to understand.

RCT3 has sold over 10 million copies since it came out in 2004, you can't tell me the majority of those sales were to people that are the hardcore fans. I don't buy that (even though I did buy it, several times over probably.. [big grin])

 

[Coasterfan312]

The game has such a good UI though. I just don't get what's complicated about it.

Tutorials should cover any complexities, and it should all turn out fine. I know I'm slightly against you on this, but I doubt Frontier won't do what's right for all possible audiences of the game. They're the ones who made RCT3, after all.

 

[techen]

See, that's a dangerous attitude to have in my opinion, and this is not directed at you all so please don't take it personally. Its somewhat elitist to think like that. If all that Frontier care about is 'that' audience then this game will die on its feet before it has even begun.

Of course there will be a 'core' audience for the game, and most of those people will be either sim nuts, coaster nuts or a mixture of both. That goes for any game genre in the end. But Frontier need to cater for the rest as well. There will be plenty of people out there who may have never played a Theme Park sim before so for them this is their introduction to it. You don't want to put them off (or the casuals) because the game is too complicated to understand.

RCT3 has sold over 10 million copies since it came out in 2004, you can't tell me the majority of those sales were to people that are the hardcore fans. I don't buy that (even though I did buy it, several times over probably.. [big grin])

I don't think "die on it's feet" is going to be a thing anytime soon. If pre order sales are anything to go by and it's a clear sign to say there doing something right, Very very right. But we can bash around the alpha stick all day long my friend.

Alpha - To test core gameplay aspects - IE, Rollercoasters, Objects, Game engine, etc etc
Beta - To test the full game before release

I wouldn't start getting upset until it's in beta, Long way to go. Besides, There's a blueprint tab there anyway and we will most likely have a share aspect of the game. So you may be crap at building things but nothings stopping you downloading peoples lovely artwork and placing it in your park.