ARGH!! Why is building so frustrating?? Missing controls, bugs...

[seeker7]

I got PC after the release. Since the first minutes it's been a love-hate relationship with the gme. I think it looks absolutely stunning! The guests are adorable, the ride animations are well done and riding a coaster in a game never has been so much fun! I've tried the career only to find management matters absolutely not, at best it's a mystery how the management "mechanics" work. Alright, switch to sandbox.

I'm surprised - well, disappointed really - that the selection of parts to choose from is relatively small and some counterparts of pieces are missing. But I love that there are so many possibilities in build mode!

Then I try to build my entrance building and this where it gets frustrating quickly. Fiddling with the controls drives me absolutely nuts!

* Where is the option to have a 1m/ 0.5m/ 0.25 m/ no grid? I've figured out how to switch off grid control on the vertical axis (why is it hidden in the back of the menu?? Why is there no shortcut?) but there's no option for horizontal placing. This makes no sense.

* I do get why there is the grid function for walls and roofs etc. though. It's much simpler to place things this way. But it should be optional. I don't get why the axis manipulation should remain restricted for the grid-mode pieces. Many things I'd like to do are impossible (like changeing the angle of a roof). Where is the "advanced" build mode where I can toggle grid mode on/off for pieces individually and optionally for all pieces at once?

* Many pieces can be colored - but just to make it frustrating there are random pieces that can't. Even if they're from the same "collection"! As long as I'm building straight walls I can paint them grey, blue, whatever. But if I want to add a rounded piece for a tower my only option is white. Seriously??

* A "make invisible" option would be really helpful. Really, really would. Also: Shortcuts to turn (all selected) pieces 180°, mirror them...

* Placing paths is really counter-intuitive. I could get on board with it if the system would let me control the result. It may work ok as long as the ground is even. However, as soon as it's not what it comes down to is sheer luck. Half of the time PC will just tell me "obstructed" or do things with the path I really didn't want it to do.
It gets worse if it's an entrance/exit queue I need to correct when the final path part doesn't want to connect. All of a sudden the whole border of my ride turns red and is shown as "obstructed" and there's not a single alternative spot to place my entrance/ exit so I end up tearing down the whole thing.

* The terraforming seems to be missing some essential tools (see RCT3). Also I have no idea why some of my "lakes" can't be filled with water. (Empty the lagoon in the first career scenario and try to add water again - in my game it doesn't work). If PC actually allows me to add water to a hole in the ground, more often than not the most I can get them to fill is 1/2 or 3/4.
And don't get me started on matching the height of my flatrides to my ground (or vice versa). It's a pain!

* I love that the pieces are designed in a way they can be layered without clipping, much better than RCT3 (if you get clipping try to turn the piece 180°). But then there are bugs like this one. The only difference in the right pic is, I've moved the horizontal beam (marked yellow) to the left so it connects to the left wall (green). For some reason this action alters the appearance of the wall (marked red) and distorts the whole thing:

I really love PC, I do, it's just... I hate it!! I get the feeling it's a late beta I'm playing. Some major parts seem unfinished, plain and simple. Man, I really really hope the devs put in some major improvements. It just seems there's so many obvious flaws that ruin what could easily be the best coaster simulation ever.

 

[FinalMantasyX]

I really love PC, I do, it's just... I hate it!! I get the feeling it's a late beta I'm playing. Some major parts seem unfinished, plain and simple.

Why do you think the real beta was only a week long? [sour]

 

[SilverArrow]

I have to agree that the building part could use a little bit of love, half width walls, circular roofs and walls to allow circular buildings and roof, 1m inclined roofs and diagonal walls would be really useful.

Now you can use certain tricks to achieve it (like using different building units to build something) but it can be indeed frustrating.

Also there're many objects in the wrong category like the flat squared smooth concrete piece is not in the flat roof section (I reported some weeks ago).

 

[Stream]

Agree with everything you said. It's the reason why I don't really play the game anymore. The tools are powerful but sooo counter intuitive in a LOT of ways. It makes it feel like you're doing a chore instead of having fun. Which is not a good thing for a video game...

 

[seeker7]

It makes it feel like you're doing a chore instead of having fun. Which is not a good thing for a video game...

^ This. It's the most basic stuff that I actually need to use a tedious workaround for. And even then the result in many cases is ... mediocre.

Aside from the occasional CTD and stuff mentioned above, it's the little things, too. I'm talking about pure and simple poor design choices, like the currently selected piece(s) not only getting a white outline but also having this blue-ish overlay. Hello, I've opend the re-color window, obviously I'm trying to figure out what color looks best. I need the white/blue highlighting switched off to do that - at least give me the option to!

 

[seeker7]

I've been told that the issue with the mutilated walls when intersected, is actually intentional because it prevents flickering.

Spoiler

It's not a bug, it's a feature? I'm not so sure because I've tested this with other pieces. They didn't de-form and yet there was no clipping/flickering. So maybe another arbitrary thing like which walls and beams can be colored and which can't.

Anyway, I've taken another look at the grids and buildings system and the longer I think about it the more I am convinced there is a better way.

The facts: Grid pieces
* Right now the only pieces that can - and must(!) - be placed on grids are building pieces, like walls and roofs (there are some non-grid building pieces, too). The first piece you put down can be placed freely anywhere on the map and it establishes a new grid (4x4m or 2x2m). Every other grid-piece in the building will by default snap to this grid.

* Regarding the height you can choose from a 4/2/1/0m grid which gives you a 4/2/1/0.25(!)m grid for the y-axis. Like with the x- and z-axis you can choose to place pieces either on the inside or the outside of the grid. (I have no clue what I need to do so deactivating "Global vertical snapping" actually works as it is supposed to. One time I got it working by accident.)

* Rotation of these pieces is limited to a 90° angle on the vertical axis.


The Facts: Free pieces
* The non-grid pieces are all the scenery items plus some of the building pieces, like columns. They can be placed freely and cannot be made snapping to a grid.

* With the "Align To Surface" option checked the piece will align more or less seamlessly with the surface of any other piece (grid or free).

* There is a "Centre" feature: When placing a free piece on a grid-piece pressing the F-button snaps the free piece to the centre of the grid piece.

* There is free rotation on all 3 axes.

My conclusion

* Snap-to-grid is not the problem. That said, I still feel the gridsize should allow for more flexibility (1m, 0.5m, 0.25m - at least be consistent, for the vertical these options already exist!).

* There is no obvious reason why axis manipulation should remain restricted for some pieces. There are not that many pieces in the game to begin with! If free rotation would mess up the grid system (I don't think it would) - with a different approach to the building system that I'm suggesting that's no concern.

* Pieces shouldn't be restricted to either grid or free placement. To have only one of the two placement behaviours available for each piece is a completely unnecessary limitation. I want to see a refined version of both modes that I can easily switch between with the press of a button.

* The logical next step is that establishing a new grid should be independent from placing a certain item from the building category. I want to be able to have a "building" that consists only of scenery (change the name to "structure" if you think it gets too confusing).
(Right now if I want move my ride decoration slightly to the left I have to first select all the pieces, then move them. Need to move them again? Rinse and repeat. Or I use the workaround of creating a building by placing an unnecessary grid-piece that I can assign my scenery items to. Both ways scream poor design!
EDIT: The problems are similar when you're "splitting" a building [btw. where is the "add to another building/ combine buildings" button?].

* A by far superior "Centre" function would be a shortcut that centres an item not on the surface it currently aligns to, but on a grid node.
(Right now there's this workaround (see pic above): 1. Place a grid-piece and add grid-pieces, thereby creating something like a virtual custom-grid. 2. Align and centre the free piece(s) you want to place 3. Delete the grid-pieces)

 

[breezerHOG1]

I get the feeling it's a late beta I'm playing. Some major parts seem unfinished, plain and simple.

Alpha was the beta, beta was just an "early release" for pre-orders. Beta offered us no chance to make suggestions because time

It makes it feel like you're doing a chore instead of having fun. Which is not a good thing for a video game...

I agree 110% i still prefer classic RCT because its just more fun due to its simplicity. Everything in PC takes soooo long to do. RCT3 was a big step up from RCT2 but PC is not a big step up from PC its just more time consuming

 

[Curlyriff]

Yep I find this, it's why I keep comparing how good Sims 4 was for it's build mode.

This link explains why it worked so well

http://www.carls-sims-4-guide.com/tutorials/building/houses.php

 

[danijami23]

Alpha was the beta, beta was just an "early release" for pre-orders. Beta offered us no chance to make suggestions because time


I agree 110% i still prefer classic RCT because its just more fun due to its simplicity. Everything in PC takes soooo long to do. RCT3 was a big step up from RCT2 but PC is not a big step up from PC its just more time consuming

Download some blueprints? Theres tens of thousands of them on the workshop. If you want to save time and sacrifice a little bit of creativity, theres your answer.

 

[breezerHOG1]

Thanks danij, I might as well just watch videos of people building there own parks. I dont care to build elaborate scenery, I am annoyed with basic functions like paths and queues, the lack of an in depth career and management system, and hiring employees is not even worth the trouble. Graphics are not what draws me to a game, at least RCT3 has a lot more to offer at this point.

 

[Curlyriff]

Download some blueprints? Theres tens of thousands of them on the workshop. If you want to save time and sacrifice a little bit of creativity, theres your answer.

That isn't the answer. I mean I design and build things all day at work however I find it tedious, un-intuitive and boring in PC because of the tools, not that I don't have the creative want to do so. The desire just isn't there because they are not fun to use and that is not what a game should be.

 

[seeker7]

Download some blueprints? Theres tens of thousands of them on the workshop. If you want to save time and sacrifice a little bit of creativity, theres your answer.

What you are suggesting is the solution to a different problem: How do I get my park plastered with buidlings?

We're talking about the functionality of the build mode here, which concerns the process of building. Building takes a lot more time which is not only the backside of the new freedom. It is also the result of inefficient tools, a rather small selection of items and, uhm, questionable design choices. This results in a lot of trial and error, a number of dead ends and the need for time consuming workarounds when building.

 

[Linio]

Oh yeah, I had the same problem, some pieces change when connected to other. This should be customizable, sometimes you do want the piece to not bend the way you would want 90% of the time. I must admit though I understand the use in some case.
You may have the same answer I got every-time I asked about being able to move every piece : you could just do another building to have the piece the way you want it...

 

[seeker7]

You may have the same answer I got every-time I asked about being able to move every piece : you could just do another building to have the piece the way you want it...

Besides the fact that it's impractical: This is only a workaround for the 90° restriction so it doesn't even solve half the problems.

 

[danijami23]

That isn't the answer. I mean I design and build things all day at work however I find it tedious, un-intuitive and boring in PC because of the tools, not that I don't have the creative want to do so. The desire just isn't there because they are not fun to use and that is not what a game should be.

I happen to disagree with that statement. The only things missing from building imo is point to point wall building. Also trying to get the roofs to do what you want them to do can be glitchy, but I expect that to ve fixed at some point. Other than that I find the building tools pretty intuitive, and exciting. I mean you can't deny how powerful they are - spend five minutes watching any silvarett video and try to tell me that what he is achieving isn't incredible!

 

[MARK1]

Yeah for me this is the most frustrating part of the game... the system just doesn't seem 'smart' to me in terms of the placing of things.

One of my biggest and most basic of issues:

When you place say, a wall/roof, that is high up or in a certain position, the next object will drop way under or will reorientate 90 degrees when you don't want it to. It's REALLY erratic. It's common sense that the next potential object stay at the same height and orientation and you change it from there. Sometimes it does it... you'll be adding a roof and you can just keep on adding fast because it all stays at the same height.

Even though it's better than RCT3 (e.g. I like that you can automatically add walls on top of each other) it can tend to be cumbersome and can make building a chore.

 

[Curlyriff]

I happen to disagree with that statement. The only things missing from building imo is point to point wall building. Also trying to get the roofs to do what you want them to do can be glitchy, but I expect that to ve fixed at some point. Other than that I find the building tools pretty intuitive, and exciting. I mean you can't deny how powerful they are - spend five minutes watching any silvarett video and try to tell me that what he is achieving isn't incredible!

That is not the same as it being intuitive though. The problem is that to create the repetitiveness and the hassle to get things aligned properly. The issues with grid, the lack of having chamfered corners so having to create 2 buildings to look like one which means it doesn't dynamically adjust the wall like the right angle does.

Just look at how powerful the Sims 4 builder is in that regards, how simple it is to use and how much quicker with intuitive and easy to understand principles. The lack of adjustable roof slopes/pitch. Parts that can't arbitrarily change colour because they have been forgotten.

There was a brilliant post that pointed out the colour issue for instance and they said they would fix it for release and that they are aware and yet it is still here. The whole UI is a mess with things randomly placed in different places like lights in two different sections for no apparent reason.

I am not suggesting at any point that you cannot create stuff and as you say people such as Silvarett produce some wonders, however this is still probably one of the worst building systems I have used in a long time. Going back to colour, a colour pipette would be super handy, the ability to have tabs with different colours that you can save or are pre-loaded, for instance plastic sheen, matt etc.

They have had the whole time for Alpha where we stated all the issues and they have not been fixed so I am not expecting much to change now on this front.

You can disagree with the statement, however the answer you gave is not the solution.

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Yeah for me this is the most frustrating part of the game... the system just doesn't seem 'smart' to me in terms of the placing of things.

One of my biggest and most basic of issues:

When you place say, a wall/roof, that is high up or in a certain position, the next object will drop way under or will reorientate 90 degrees when you don't want it to. It's REALLY erratic. It's common sense that the next potential object stay at the same height and orientation and you change it from there. Sometimes it does it... you'll be adding a roof and you can just keep on adding fast because it all stays at the same height.

Even though it's better than RCT3 (e.g. I like that you can automatically add walls on top of each other) it can tend to be cumbersome and can make building a chore.

Yep a lot of this, so many things are possible but its clunky to get to the result that you wanted. Honestly I would have thought considering how much software devs use, they would understand the principles of making sure it is intuitive, simple and powerful for what is required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KSFkcKBBMo

I know this is release trailer but just watch how simple and effective that was to create some amazingly shaped buildings. Add that they have real windows that dynamically splice walls, doors that work. Honestly this is what the building tool should have been. You could of split it into the themes easy enough and really had them in a powerful and intuitive solution.

 

[danijami23]

That is not the same as it being intuitive though. The problem is that to create the repetitiveness and the hassle to get things aligned properly. The issues with grid, the lack of having chamfered corners so having to create 2 buildings to look like one which means it doesn't dynamically adjust the wall like the right angle does.

Just look at how powerful the Sims 4 builder is in that regards, how simple it is to use and how much quicker with intuitive and easy to understand principles. The lack of adjustable roof slopes/pitch. Parts that can't arbitrarily change colour because they have been forgotten.

There was a brilliant post that pointed out the colour issue for instance and they said they would fix it for release and that they are aware and yet it is still here. The whole UI is a mess with things randomly placed in different places like lights in two different sections for no apparent reason.

I am not suggesting at any point that you cannot create stuff and as you say people such as Silvarett produce some wonders, however this is still probably one of the worst building systems I have used in a long time. Going back to colour, a colour pipette would be super handy, the ability to have tabs with different colours that you can save or are pre-loaded, for instance plastic sheen, matt etc.

They have had the whole time for Alpha where we stated all the issues and they have not been fixed so I am not expecting much to change now on this front.

You can disagree with the statement, however the answer you gave is not the solution.

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Yep a lot of this, so many things are possible but its clunky to get to the result that you wanted. Honestly I would have thought considering how much software devs use, they would understand the principles of making sure it is intuitive, simple and powerful for what is required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KSFkcKBBMo

I know this is release trailer but just watch how simple and effective that was to create some amazingly shaped buildings. Add that they have real windows that dynamically splice walls, doors that work. Honestly this is what the building tool should have been. You could of split it into the themes easy enough and really had them in a powerful and intuitive solution.

Well, to be fair I can't really come up with a solution to things that don't bother me or I don't find unintuitive. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder in this case. I do agree that saved colours are needed, as the recently used colours thing is not good enough, but honestly i can live without the pipette - if I want to copy a colour I just copy aed paste the hash value, which is much more accurate than trying to click some pain in the fiddly little bit of trim. Again there are definitely some glitches and quirks in the system that make it frustrating at times, but I don't feel I can judge its intuitiveness on things that aren't working as intended. That's more of a judgement on Frontier's QA team,

The lights in two sections is obvious - one is a prop, and one is designed for a building. I don't find that particularly unintuitive. Also I don't really see a problem with making chamfers by using two buildings - there is a pretty clear reason they went with a grid, and that was to make buildings LESS of a nightmare to line up. One better solution maybe would be to allow more freedon with grid size.

I agree that the Sims 4 (well all of them really) has quite nice and easy to use tools, BUT they are inarguably inferior to PC's in terms of you can't create architectural masterpieces in the Sims. Sure you can quickly and easily make fun looking houses, but if PC had the same tools as TS4 then the De-Lady-Signers, Silvaretts and ctops just wouldn't exist.

 

[Curlyriff]

Sorry but the only difference between the Sims 4 and the buildings in PC is that the textures are better with PC and there are more options for decoration. However to suggest you can't create masterpieces with that is ludicrous tbh.

There is nothing that the tools give from TS4 that would limit what we do in PC, in fact the ability for chamfered, rounded, curved building pieces would increase tenfold.

There is a grid in the Sims though as well, it is just the same principle as that of PC in that regards as well. And sorry but creating two buildings and lining them up is frustrating and not intuitive no matter how you look at it. It doesn't recognise to chamfer the building edges to stop Z fighting.

There is no need to have the lights not all in the building section though. Why is one needing to be a prop and on a building element. Lights are lights no matter which. If you look up lights online they are categorised as Lights - Sub Category of light not the other way around. It would be much easier to place them all in one place.

A pipette would be handy for flat colours of walls though. Place wall hit pipette and then use bucket to fill all the wall pieces or multi-select and do the same thing. Also it would allow you to pull a shade out of a texture then if you wanted to match that rather than just the flat colour items.

We have also been asking for a 0.5m grid with steps from that to 4m since Alpha with no luck. I just don't see it happening. We don't have pieces to fit smaller grid building either at moment. The reason the TS4 works well with this is it's all dynamic, you can drag your shape and raise it at all different heights.

Yeah I should point out it's not perfect but I would rate PC around 4/10 for building and tools to do so and TS4 around 8/10.

Dynamic roofs is also another part that works so well in TS4 and to then use a slider to adjust the pitch. Wall pieces dynamic snap to it and adjust if needed.

I am not sure how much you have looked into the buildings in Sims 4 but if you check out what's there then you can see some really cool things:
Simple Home

Curved Buildings

Structural Shapes

Fairytail Looking style

Ignore the texture & lighting and imagine being able to put this into PC, you can to an extent, however there is a lot that you cannot and certainly not to the point where it recognises it as one building.

 

[danijami23]

Sorry but the only difference between the Sims 4 and the buildings in PC is that the textures are better with PC and there are more options for decoration. However to suggest you can't create masterpieces with that is ludicrous tbh.

There is nothing that the tools give from TS4 that would limit what we do in PC, in fact the ability for chamfered, rounded, curved building pieces would increase tenfold.

There is a grid in the Sims though as well, it is just the same principle as that of PC in that regards as well. And sorry but creating two buildings and lining them up is frustrating and not intuitive no matter how you look at it. It doesn't recognise to chamfer the building edges to stop Z fighting.

There is no need to have the lights not all in the building section though. Why is one needing to be a prop and on a building element. Lights are lights no matter which. If you look up lights online they are categorised as Lights - Sub Category of light not the other way around. It would be much easier to place them all in one place.

A pipette would be handy for flat colours of walls though. Place wall hit pipette and then use bucket to fill all the wall pieces or multi-select and do the same thing. Also it would allow you to pull a shade out of a texture then if you wanted to match that rather than just the flat colour items.

We have also been asking for a 0.5m grid with steps from that to 4m since Alpha with no luck. I just don't see it happening. We don't have pieces to fit smaller grid building either at moment. The reason the TS4 works well with this is it's all dynamic, you can drag your shape and raise it at all different heights.

Yeah I should point out it's not perfect but I would rate PC around 4/10 for building and tools to do so and TS4 around 8/10.

Dynamic roofs is also another part that works so well in TS4 and to then use a slider to adjust the pitch. Wall pieces dynamic snap to it and adjust if needed.

I am not sure how much you have looked into the buildings in Sims 4 but if you check out what's there then you can see some really cool things:
Simple Home
http://i.imgur.com/HyKQJFV.jpg

Curved Buildings
http://i.imgur.com/VmKJHgA.jpg

Structural Shapes
http://i.imgur.com/fQm0rEG.jpg

Fairytail Looking style
http://i.imgur.com/qYIaWpA.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/qYIaWpA.jpg


Ignore the texture & lighting and imagine being able to put this into PC, you can to an extent, however there is a lot that you cannot and certainly not to the point where it recognises it as one building.

I have the Sims 4 and all of its DLC so yeah I have a good idea what the tools are about. There are some super cool.features - spline based editing of curved walls is a winner, amongst other things.

I think maybe what we need is a middle ground. You're absolutely right that PC would benefit from the tools TS4 has, however even the cool stuff you've shown me in the above pics is not a patch on the best of what i've seen in PC. One thing that I will say though, is while the silvaretts and deladysigners of this world make amazing things, it would definitely be easier for the less patient and creativr types to quickly make something pretty cool with sims 4 type stuff. I'd like to think of myself as in between. I haven't had as much time as youtubers to spend on the game, but I have gotten REALLY into the building aspect of things, and will gladly spend four hours building a coaster station. Perhaps it's hard for me to be objective since i think the building tools are fabulous and limitless. I do realise their problems in some respects, but they don't seem to affect me in the same way they do you.