Bigger On The Inside

[Misty_Dark]

I see some potential answers to this


1. More ships gets upgraded with the mythical stuff we build the Anaconda of, and thus we can create new "empty" spaces inside the hull.
2. Guardians experimented with Tardis techology
3. New technology progress, allows shrink technology and reclaim space that way.
4. there was always this space available for further use, as dictated by the Pilots Federation, and now the allow us to unlock these slots.

 

[fasterXR]

Ok you all need to take a step back from this and a big step out of the large boxes every one lives in i.e. your house. Just looking at the side winder in size comparison video it has more then enough room to add the space needed and have living quarters. I'm gathering that a fairly slim to none of you'all have ever been in a semi-truck ( lorry for those of you across the pond and down under) most have two beds plenty of storage for neccessary life on the road which can last up to being gone for 6 weeks. The box behind them carries a average max weight of 43000lbs/22 tones. To add shower kitchenette and bathroom add about 5 maybe 6 feet to the bunk of the tractor. This is not a lot of space and a semi is only 8 feet wide, roughly 2.2 ish meters adding what there adding isn't a big deal at all.

 

[StuartGT]

It's all "blah blah blah" until I see a 3D internal render that shows how everything I've addressed in this thread (cough SRV cough) can actually fit logically in our Sidewinders.

Indeed it is. Since that hasn't happened yet, it doesn't concern me

Looking forward to seeing the 3D internal renders after Space Legs is announced to arrive

 

[RamirezKurita]

Nah.

The sidey has an internal volume of roughly 750m³.
Of that volume, internal slots currently take up around 12m³.
With the update, that'll change to around 16m³.

In gameplay terms, it'll create a heap of new possibilities, though.

Looking forward to rebuilding my Exploration Sidey as a properly viable exploration ship, rebuilding my speedy Viper to do more stuff and adding functionality to my DBXs etc.

If you include the core internal modules and treat them as being the same density, then you end up with effectively 28.2 tonnes rather than just the optional internal 16 tonnes of space, which is a fair difference.

Even more so if you work off the values for liquid hydrogen rather than the density of water in terms of weight, this would give an overall occupied internal volume of about 366 cubic metres, leaving about ~400 cubic metres for the hull, weapon hardpoints, corridors, wiring, fuel lines, cooling, corridors, inaccessible corners, internal monorail/conveyor systems etc. Seems reasonable to me, although I don't know how well it stacks up against other ships.

 

[Old Duck]

Indeed it is. Since that hasn't happened yet, it doesn't concern me
Looking forward to seeing the 3D internal renders after Space Legs is announced to arrive

As a realism-focused roleplayer, I can avoid scenarios that stretch the imagination. I'm definitely not using my Sidewinder to haul cargo, nor do I carry an SRV in it. In fact, I'm not sure what I'll use these two slots for.... Perhaps an interdictor and a hatch-breaking limpet controller (neither of which should take up too much room). Then I can pirate in style!

 

[StuartGT]

If you include the core internal modules and treat them as being the same density, then you end up with effectively 28.2 tonnes rather than just the optional internal 16 tonnes of space, which is a fair difference.

Even more so if you work off the values for liquid hydrogen rather than the density of water in terms of weight, this would give an overall occupied internal volume of about 366 cubic metres, leaving about ~400 cubic metres for the hull, weapon hardpoints, corridors, wiring, fuel lines, cooling, corridors, inaccessible corners, internal monorail/conveyor systems etc. Seems reasonable to me, although I don't know how well it stacks up against other ships.

Science!

 

[Stealthie]

If you include the core internal modules and treat them as being the same density, then you end up with effectively 28.2 tonnes rather than just the optional internal 16 tonnes of space, which is a fair difference.

Even more so if you work off the values for liquid hydrogen rather than the density of water in terms of weight, this would give an overall occupied internal volume of about 366 cubic metres, leaving about ~400 cubic metres for the hull, weapon hardpoints, corridors, wiring, fuel lines, cooling, corridors, inaccessible corners, internal monorail/conveyor systems etc. Seems reasonable to me, although I don't know how well it stacks up against other ships.

Not entirely sure what core modules have to do with this.
Bottom line is that a ship with a volume of around 750m³ now has an extra 4m³ earmarked as "storage space".
That's not a dramatic change.

In terms of modelling the ship interior, core modules would be an easy target for manipulation.
We have no idea about the size and shape of things like PPs, PDists, FSDs, sensors, life-support or any of that stuff.
FDev could probably get away with just creating a small, medium & large "engine room" and then bunging all the core modules in it.

As for optional slots, passenger cabins will always dictate the volume of a slot rather than anything else.
Assuming that each person requires 2m³ (which would be the bare minimum required) gives us a fair idea of slot volumes... which also, conveniently, coincides with the density of water.
Realistically, of course, a 4m³ 2E passenger cabin would be tiny. It'd barely be enough space for a couple of narrow bunks but it's vaguely plausible.

 

[Midian Cabal]

I'm sure they did some internal mapping in those early days. There's a picture of a mapped Anaconda out there somewhere. Sometime during development, however, they tabled this and made modules simple statistics. If we ever do get space legs, I expect that we will "transition" to different parts of our ship the way we currently transition from cockpit to SRV. This way Frontier can just use certain predefined models for things like cargo bays and passenger lounges without having to worry about the many THOUSANDS of possible module combinations in larger ships.

Either that or they will completely rework the module system so that we "build" ship interiors like houses in The Sims, graphically placing cargo bays and what not in logical places and connecting them with hallways. This would be epic, and doable, and maybe even plausible in light of their Planet Coaster franchise.

But now, right now, modules are D&D stats, nothing more.

Bluprints for all ships are already done.
And please refrain from communication with other people until you manage doing it in a civilised manner using factual arguments instead of insults.

 

[Morbad]

You need to be able to get those heavy torpedoes from the service hatch to the torpedo racks, which requires hallways and hatches and rails and equipment.

All of which I am giving very generous volume allotments for when I talk about the Sidewinder.

The Sidewinder, like grandma's attic, has some very tight, slanted spaces (which ironically might work great for reenforcing the hull but are rubbish for efficiently storing stacked containers).

The sidewinder is the size of a duplex and is mostly shaped like a box. Mass is the only limiting factor with these ships, not volume or layout.

http://www.elite-dangerous-blog.co.uk/image.axd?picture=/blueprints/blueprint-sidewinder.jpg

Anyway, you are talking numbers, I am talking layout and visual design.

I'm talking about how the numbers allow for a huge degree of flexibility in layout and visual design.

While there are ways to achieve slightly higher densities, such as the intermetallics and via adsorption onto substrates, they still can't account for a 13x increase in density.

There is no liquid hydrogen commodity. There is 'hydrogen fuel'.

The best way to put cheap hydrogen fuel into a can is to store it as a hydrocarbon (diesel) or perhaps a metal hydroxide. Even water has a higher volumetric density of hydrogen than pure liquid hydrogen.

 

[Old Duck]

Bluprints for all ships are already done.
And please refrain from communication with other people until you manage doing it in a civilised manner using factual arguments instead of insults.

No. And no.

 

[Midian Cabal]

Nah.

The sidey has an internal volume of roughly 750m³.
Of that volume, internal slots currently take up around 12m³.
With the update, that'll change to around 16m³.

In gameplay terms, it'll create a heap of new possibilities, though.

Looking forward to rebuilding my Exploration Sidey as a properly viable exploration ship, rebuilding my speedy Viper to do more stuff and adding functionality to my DBXs etc.

It's actually around 900m³. I didn't have time to do the math for internal slots.

Edit: Just for comparison, The ISS has 931.57m³ of pressurised volume.

 

[Stealthie]

So when you say, "Nah", that's the prelude to the nonsensical rubbish that follows? I truly mean it, if you think engines and thrusters and frameshift and sensors and pipes connecting lateral thrusters to engines (some of which apparently run right by my seat) and the SRV bay (which is separate from the cargo scoop void) and everything else that makes a working ship a ship ony takes up 12 cubic meters, then you are smoking some really good weed.

If you think that's what I said, you're smoking some really cool weed.

What I said was that the sum total of the optional internal slots is around 12m³.
Let me repeat that; the OPTIONAL INTERNAL slots.
Got that?

As for core internal slots, it'd be a bit silly to assume that something like an FSD or a power plant has the same density as what goes in a cargo rack or a passenger cabin.
To use a real-world example, an average car engine is about the same size a couple of 5 gallon cans.
Based on size, a stupid person might assume an engine weighs around 50kgs, which means they'd be surprised to find that it actually weighs 250kg or more, what with iron and steel being denser than water.

In terms of ED, the physical size of core modules is at FDev's discretion.
In all likelihood, mapping the interiors of ships would simply involve placing the bridge/cockpit, allocating sufficient space for passenger cabins to all the internal slots and then seeing what's left over and allocating that to core modules.

In a ship like the Sidey or Eagle, they could probably get away with having the core modules hidden away in various nooks & crannies within the ship and being accessed by opening panels on bulkheads.

 

[Morbad]

The sidey has an internal volume of roughly 750m³.
Of that volume, internal slots currently take up around 12m³.
With the update, that'll change to around 16m³.

A canister is a bit bigger than this, and even if half of the hold isn't actual canister storage, there is still a lot of room in the volume that could reasonably be allocated to optional internals.

It's actually around 900m³.

I eyeballed a thousand, but a more exact figure is handy.

 

[Stealthie]

It's actually around 900m³. I didn't have time to do the math for internal slots.

Edit: Just for comparison, The ISS has 931.57m³ of pressurised volume.

Fair enough.

I just looked at it's dimensions and then halved the total volume, based on the fact it's a "wedge" shape.
Fact remains, I'm sure you'd agree, that it's a fair ol' volume of spaceship and only a small proportion of that volume is earmarked as "storage space".

 

[Old Duck]

All of which I am giving very generous volume allotments for when I talk about the Sidewinder.
The sidewinder is the size of a duplex and is mostly shaped like a box. Mass is the only limiting factor with these ships, not volume or layout.

Yes, these external diagrams are lovely, but they are external. Also, I hope you're not calculating volume based on tip-to-tip measurements, because the Sidewinder is a wedge, not a box. You're gonna have to submerge that bad boy to get it's actual volume.

Once you have its external volume, then you need to figure in all the extra spaces for landing gear, the empty space above the cargo hatch (SRV and cargo are not stored here, as is clear to see when scooping), engines, which I assume take up a good chuck of the ship, frame shift drives, etc.

Now I'm going to take a quick pause here, because I went to Coriolis to look at module sizes, and it raises a new question. On the Sidewinder we have two main thrusters, port and starboard, with the main door separating them. However, they are listed as once single module. This itself proves that modules are basically spreadsheet stats, because these two separate thrusters are clearly separated by a door (which implies hallway).

So again, I think people are getting lost in numbers and not "looking around" using their imagination based on living in a functioning ship. Granted, we don't have starships today, but considering all the pipes and wires and nonsense I see cluttering my cockpit, it appears starships in 3305 aren't that different that ocean ships today, from the machinery all over the place perspective.

Also, I'm not arguing that there isn't free SPACE, as in air, inside our ships. Go look at all the free space in the engine room of a cargo ship, for example. But that space itself serves a purpose, whether it's getting to machinery for maintenance or moving ordinance, or just simply having air to breath. And as you say, mass does matter from a "this thing has to fly" perspective, so we're not going to fill up a Sidewinder so there's no air left. But that's my point, people are just "grabbing air" and saying anything can go there, as if our ships are half-filled soda bottles that we can pour more liquid into. They are not, nor do I SEE my Sidewinder being some giant, empty basketball-court sized ship that can just have more module space carved out of it forever and ever.

And of course this all brings us back to the question of if my Sidewinder has always been "mostly empty" all this time, then why did Frontier design it to be this "mostly empty" shell in the first place? Were they planning on releasing Elite: Basketball someday where I would play BB in my ship? Now that Elite: Basketball is canceled, they are free to give us module slots for our new toys??

 

[StuartGT]

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/55sw6m

Prefim is the CMDR who makes the excellent ship scale videos:

 

[Midian Cabal]

Is there enough free space for 2 x 01 Optional? Seems like there is...

 

[Stealthie]

Yes, these external diagrams are lovely, but they are external. Also, I hope you're not calculating volume based on tip-to-tip measurements, because the Sidewinder is a wedge, not a box. You're gonna have to submerge that bad boy to get it's actual volume.

The fact that you're asking this makes it glaringly obvious that you haven't thought about it very much.

Based on it's dimensions, the "box-size" of a Sidey would be 1,721m³.
The fact that nobody's suggested a figure anywhere NEAR that should tell you that people are already accounting for it's shape.

As for core module sizes, the volume can work both ways.
A C2 Power Plant, for example, might weigh 2t but that will include all the pipework and cabling that's running throughout the ship.
A actual PP, itself, might be the size of a big suitcase.

Similar thing with sensors; just cos they weigh 1t, that doesn't mean it's all in one lump sat in the middle of a room.
It could be said to include antenna arrays built into the hull, wiring and various plug-in doodads which interface with other systems and, again, the visible parts of the module might only be the size of a suitcase.

As for thrusters, it'd be silly to assume that they would be traditional "rocket motors" as we know them.
We're already developing piezo-electric thrusters (which are currently terrible, but whatev's) which can be, basically, surface-mounted devices.
It's not entirely implausible that, a thousand years in the future, spaceship thrusters might take up very little internal space in a ship.

 

[Morbad]

Yes, these external diagrams are lovely, but they are external.

They are illustrative of how big the ship is and a tiny bit of deductive reasoning will get you a reasonable internal layout.

Also, I hope you're not calculating volume based on tip-to-tip measurements, because the Sidewinder is a wedge, not a box. You're gonna have to submerge that bad boy to get it's actual volume.

Even in crappy public school I was eventually booted out of we learned how to calculate the volume of a triangular prism in 3rd grade. This is what I used for the basis of my estimate, because I knew it would give me a figure lower than the actual volume. I did mentally over correct slightly, but the guess I had within five seconds of seeing the height, length, and width figures of the ship was accurate to within 12% of the true value.

You're gonna have to submerge that bad boy to get it's actual volume.

That's essentially what was done, in a modeling program.

The actual volume contained by the ship's wireframe is ~899 cubic meters.

 

[Old Duck]

Argument Mode Off

How are people coming up with the measurements for these diagrams and charts? Is this based on a presumed size of the pilot, and then scaled using an exported version of the 3D models that somebody somehow extracted from the game? More importantly, how are they calculating volume? We're dealing with really complex shapes, so it would require software to perform the calculations, a digital version of Archimedes' principle (I don't know if something like Blender will do this). This also assumes perfectly hollow interiors, which is not what I see when I fly around ship wreckage - there's major framing, struts, etc. Does this volume also include things like thinner wings, spoilers, external engine pods, etc?

Argument Mode On