So FDev have no backbone....figures

[fus roh potato]

The more appropriate action to address permaboosting is to modify ships and mods that directly effect it, not give a single weapon the ability to nullify it because that doesn't create balance. It affects all ships negatively, more-so those which don't have permaboost. If you make balance dependent on specific loadouts, something OP to address something OP, you get a more narrowly defined super meta that makes combat stale. It pushes success towards builds and away from skill, a far less exciting scenario. The FDL was already dominant and would have only been more dominant with the drag change.

Actual balace would have addressed the over and under performers:

+10% boost cooldown for FDL and Mamba
+10% boost cost for FDL
-10% boost cost and cooldown time for cobra, courier, vulture, and dbs
-20% boost cost and cooldown for viper, eagle, i-eagle, and asp scout.

Perma-boost is not actually a bad thing. It's bad when the wrong ships have it, in our case, "heavy fighters" that also run superior shielding, maneuverability, and firepower.

 

[Chaparral]

Increasing the prevalence of snare and cripple mechanics without condi clears favors ganks and alpha strikes. Drag munis seems like a weak vehicle to "shake up the pvp meta".

How about modules that mitigate the effects of grom bombs and cascade effects? How about mines that are stealthed? How about mines that activate on proximity and pursue targets? How about hardpoints that are enlarged, more effective versions of point defenses? How about modules that execute priority calls to the cops (an anti gank tool), How about holographic projectors? How angling shields to increase strength on one side? How about something that messes with plasma shots?

My point is that creating a diversity of player controlled or passive systems designed defeat snare and cripples, or the meta attacks will shake things up. Having to consider using a bunch of active systems rather than stacking hull or module reinforcements, or shield boosters and SCBs seems a bit more interesting to me.

 

[Zalacious]

Listening and being receptive is a good thing....

However....

They obviously saw and opportunity to shake things up a bit and did so. But rather than letting to roll out a bit and see what developed from it they instead listened to the biggest crying and reverted back almost instantly... this IMO is worse than doing the change originally.

Now all they have done is set a precident to have potentially beneficial changes 'shouted down' because some people don't like it and can't adapt. It's usually an early indicator that the game is going to start down a slippery slope.

This already happened when there was talk of reducing shield and hull hit point inflation. People flipped out and we never heard about it again.

For the record though, I did not like the changes to drag but do think combat could use some changes.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

This has nothing to do with backbone, it's a sensible reaction to correct a mistake. Leaving it in would be more cowardly and stubborn actually, since it takes a bit of spine and humility to realize when one has goofed up and take responsibility for that.

Personally I have only gotten into minimal PvP in ED

This bears repeating.

Literally every top PvP'er and almost all mid/high level PvP'ers, both lawful and unlawful, felt it was a horrible change. Hundreds of thousands of hours of worth PvP practice between these pilots. So the experts unanimously agree on something, but you - with minimal experience and no real ability to gauge or evaluate the change at all - feel qualified to march in and make claims about how this change should be handled. Got it.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

FD said in their update that they might well revisit this later. If that involved an actual beta phase where players could try it out - before production release - that would probably be a better approach...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

FD listen to the community: FD HAVE NO BACKBONE!

FD don't listen to the community: FD DON'T LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY!

 

[star57]

So after all the whining and crying from the 'leet pvp' crowd FDev are reverting what was potentially the biggest shake up to the stagnant PvP meta!

The drag changes made no difference from what I could tell to the ganking of non pvp focussed pilots yet would actually change the pvp meta a fair bit. A meta that is mechanically stagnant simply because the boost mechanics override some simple concepts around ship size, agility and speed. This change actually had the opportunity to push some limits on the mechanics.

But rather than let it play out and let the smart players (you know the ones who adapt to change and get better) come up with different tactics FDev lay over and present their bellies to the whining and crying of the current PvP meta hogs..... Ah well I had hopes for FDev but they are being slowly crushed like more and more of the opportunity to come up with interesting ways to play differently in ED.

I guess ED, as I have suspected for a long time, is not designed to be competitive in a PvP sense but rather co-operative. Which is fine if that's what they want but please just say so and stop jerking or tiptoeing around the subject...

To clarify some things:
The ganking of non-PvP pilots would simply have been easier.
The "change to the meta" would've been every ship running draghounds or the like, the end result being a ship under fire in a wing fight would have its evasive abilities extremely hampered.
This essentially was a nerf to skilled players' ability to dodge fire, because you'd just have to hit them with drag and they'd stall, becoming an easy target.
This wasn't an "interesting change to the meta" in any sense.

 

[KellyR]

Are we talking about Drag Munitions here? If so, what's the problem? It's just another weapon. I'm not sure how or why such a weapon would/could work, but "there are things not even dreamed of in your philosophy." In other words, this universe isn't only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine.

 

[SteveLaw]

Paige posted that she would feedback the concerns over the drag changes at 9.52 & 9.57 am the drama queen thread was started at 2.34 pm.

 

[Morbad]

Are we talking about Drag Munitions here? If so, what's the problem? It's just another weapon.

Drag munitions has had a five second boost block added to it, with an 8-10 second cooldown, in addition to it's previous effect which reduced thruster effectiveness to the equivalent of 0 pips (and which still has no cooldown).

This makes it more than just another weapon. It's a potent enough effect for everyone to want to run drag when standing their ground against other CMDRs, because not being able to boost half the time (yes, I know you can minimize the time spent not boosting by carefully timing your boosts, but in an actual combat scenario, you may not have the luxury of being able to dictate the best time to move) while one's opponent can, should have obvious repercussions.

 

[Sylow]

Hmm, yea. There is one truth to the whole happening here. When PvE players dislike something, the PvP crowd comes in, tells them not to cry but to adapt. Then something changes and the PvP crowd comes in, refuses to adapt and rather cries rivers of tears.

A bit ironic, but i guess anything else would contradict the self-declared superiority of PvP players.

 

[SteveLaw]

This is all just a mixture of different types of bias. If they make a change (that you like) to something you care about they are listening to the community, if they make a change to something you didn't want changed they are caving in to pressure, and all sorts of combinations between.

 

[Madrax573]

Well I didn't get the 10 pages of whining like the last time I did an old stirring post like this.... Much up my Forum PvP game.



Yes for those that may be a bit slow on the uptake this post was to stir the pot and wind you up, the title and wording tone was specifically set to trigger people. Might need to work on that a bit though

If you don't like it come and find me in game and shoot me - with the new drag ammo for all I care, as already noted by one astute member of the forums I don't fly my ships and just let my gimbals slowly kill crappy NPC's so I'll be an easy target


For the record I find it quite interesting that ED doesn't have much in the way of actually stopping your targets like snare/root style effects (to coin the terminology from fantasy style MMO's) and I find it too easy to avoid any form of PvP that isn't completely consensual. Yes I do think that some should be introduced, maybe not in the way it was done with drag experimental etc.

Have fun and fly dangerous

 

[Morbad]

Hmm, yea. There is one truth to the whole happening here. When PvE players dislike something, the PvP crowd comes in, tells them not to cry but to adapt. Then something changes and the PvP crowd comes in, refuses to adapt and rather cries rivers of tears.

A bit ironic, but i guess anything else would contradict the self-declared superiority of PvP players.

The adaptation required would involve everyone using drag munitions. In what reality is making any such effect mandatory going to be beneficial?

The only difference in balance and variety between PvP and PvE focused setups is due to the fact that NPCs suck which means virtually anything and everything works against them. If NPCs were actual threats and actually utilized the same tools to similar levels of proficiency as CMDRs, you might be pretty annoyed at having to run a drag frag and drag seeker rack on every combat ship you had in order to keep up.

 

[Jukelo]

Given that, it seems more accurate to say that the current boosting capabilities of various ship are simply not to your liking and stylistic preferences. Not that it "trivializes" FA Off. 042 FA Off piloting is the very height of skill in this game.

It trivializes it in the sense that I want momentum to punish you if you don't control it carefully and well in advance, and permaboosting kinda removes that.
You're right that it is a matter of preference, and some people might like the boost mechanic precisely because they want to focus on other aspects than having to be as careful with their momentum.

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

FD listen to the community: FD HAVE NO BACKBONE!

FD don't listen to the community: FD DON'T LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY!

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, and as the final act of ing on their shoes, they get told their don't play their own game (at all).

I understand getting fired up over a game, I do . . . but trying to slight them, insulting them, that's the part I find fascinating, and not in a good way.--

 

[Sylow]

The adaptation required would involve everyone using drag munitions. In what reality is making any such effect mandatory going to be beneficial?

I'm not claiming that it would be beneficial. Although there were some voices in the first thread, who also pointed out benefits of the change. I merely note that this whole thing is so much along the lines of what we had at many other occasions here: changes were shot down even before taking the shortest look at them. Just the prime examples:

• The change that sensor range would affect gimbaled weapon arcs: seen positively by most people who actually tested. Shot down on the forum by people who never tested.
• Diminishing returns on SB engineering: again seen positively by most people who actually tested. Shot down on the forum by people who never tested.

Now this change. Quite likely problematic. But instead of giving it even a chance and see how things turn out, it was burnt and killed by the community even before the patch was available.

So in a way, i also dare to say: yes, the game in a way is doomed. But not due to FD. There are not many games out there, where the community resists and hates any change as much as this one. In most other games, people would first take a look, then give feedback based on actual experience.

 

[Old Duck]

Literally every top PvP'er and almost all mid/high level PvP'ers, both lawful and unlawful, felt it was a horrible change. Hundreds of thousands of hours of worth PvP practice between these pilots. So the experts unanimously agree on something

** EDIT **

See https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/an-alternative-to-the-current-drag-se.509860/

 

[Helvellyn]

The only difference in balance and variety between PvP and PvE focused setups is due to the fact that NPCs suck which means virtually anything and everything works against them. If NPCs were actual threats and actually utilized the same tools to similar levels of proficiency as CMDRs, you might be pretty annoyed at having to run a drag frag and drag seeker rack on every combat ship you had in order to keep up.

Going a little OT but the game needs those sorts of NPCs, although at varying levels of proficiency. That way we'll all develop skills and knowledge. Could really do with a ladder between PVE and PVP.

 

[B1rdy]

I'm not claiming that it would be beneficial. Although there were some voices in the first thread, who also pointed out benefits of the change. I merely note that this whole thing is so much along the lines of what we had at many other occasions here: changes were shot down even before taking the shortest look at them. Just the prime examples:

• The change that sensor range would affect gimbaled weapon arcs: seen positively by most people who actually tested. Shot down on the forum by people who never tested.
• Diminishing returns on SB engineering: again seen positively by most people who actually tested. Shot down on the forum by people who never tested.

Now this change. Quite likely problematic. But instead of giving it even a chance and see how things turn out, it was burnt and killed by the community even before the patch was available.

So in a way, i also dare to say: yes, the game in a way is doomed. But not due to FD. There are not many games out there, where the community resists and hates any change as much as this one. In most other games, people would first take a look, then give feedback based on actual experience.

The difference between the examples you posted and the drag debacle is, that the influence of the latter might be more straightforward.