FSS vs. ADS – and Alternative or Additional Options for Compelling Gameplay

[Enderby]

I hope the FSS/ADS changes come soon.

 

[WR3ND]

I hope the FSS/ADS changes come soon.

Would be nice for some additional options. Haven't seen any indication that they'll be changing it though, beyond the likely bug fixes, of course. Figures crossed still, as they say. o7

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Would be nice for some additional options. Haven't seen any indication that they'll be changing it though, beyond the likely bug fixes, of course. Figures crossed still, as they say. o7

lol... yeah especially as the FSS is broken... bugging out when it can't see the (distant) body, at the moment I just say "sod it" and leave the system, I've lost interest as it is so 'I'm not going to go outta my way to scan some distant rock, dipping in and out of the FSS screen, "can I see it yet... what about now" I really wish FD had have listened to the feedback and suggestions instead of blundering through with this, it could have been so good.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

I'd recommend sorting the tags to this thread. Some coward added pejorative tags to it suggesting initial feelings towards this thread for first time viewers.

 

[WR3ND]

I'd recommend sorting the tags to this thread. Some coward added pejorative tags to it suggesting initial feelings towards this thread for first time viewers.

That's strange. I hadn't added any tags to it. Other people can add tags to other people's threads?

Well, I removed them, at least so far as I'm aware of.

Thanks for the heads up. I suppose if others can and want to tag it, it's fair play in that sense. But yeah, seems strange to me.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

That's strange. I hadn't added any tags to it. Other people can add tags to other people's threads?

Well, I removed them, at least so far as I'm aware of.

Thanks for the heads up. I suppose if others can and want to tag it, it's fair play in that sense. But yeah, seems strange to me.

It's surprising how low some people can stoop, the funny thing is you can get pulled by the 'Mods' for derailing a thread but the Forums allow hostile tags for threads.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

It's surprising how low some people can stoop, the funny thing is you can get pulled by the 'Mods' for derailing a thread but the Forums allow hostile tags for threads.

I find it particullarly disgusting that we can't even view thread's activity history to see who that was. Then we get situations like these where some anonymous trash can sabotage threads in very subconscious manner. Anonymous being key word here, since it's "forum" where everyone has a right to speak they should also find courage to speak in their name.

Edit: I am aware of using the word "trash". I used it on purpose. I am not afraid to say what i think of such practices.
Edit2: Sorry for off-topic.

To say something that is in line with this thread's subject I would like to voice my opinion on FSS.
FSS being a fun(subjectively) expansion of the previously installed ADS.
I found it being a gameplay element(mini-game as it is but still, nothing really bad to it) which naturally fit for exploration focused gameplay.
It finally feels like proper scanner i would keep saying. And so i say to this day.
Although it got a bit old and stale after 100th system at which point i figured i'm spending more time in FSS scanning screen than flying around systems i would find worth staying in.
My main issue though is that having forced everyone to use FSS explorers are locked to either cherry-picking and / or 100% completion making certain playstyles unavailable.
I still advocate FSS remaining in game as it is. I would not like to see it change in its core rather than i would like to see more variety in exploration builds since FSS is the only exploration module we get(aside from probe launcher, SRV-arguably).
Furthermore it appears quite odd to me how every ship is now outfitted with what could be considered an A-rated module from the get-go.
You don't really have to save up for exploration builds anymore since it appears to be the default role of every ship.
I am against meddling with FSS but in full favour of adding other modules that would allow more playstyles for exploration.

I am glad people are voicing their opinions on this. Maybe FD notices that there is quite a crowd who would like to see exploration expanded.
Good luck with Your thread.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I find it particullarly disgusting that we can't even view thread's activity history to see who that was. Then we get situations like these where some anonymous trash can sabotage threads in very subconscious manner. Anonymous being key word here, since it's "forum" where everyone has a right to speak they should also find courage to speak in their name.

Edit: I am aware of using the word "trash". I used it on purpose. I am not afraid to say what i think of such practices.
Edit2: Sorry for off-topic.

To say something that is in line with this thread's subject I would like to voice my opinion on FSS.
FSS being a fun(subjectively) expansion of the previously installed ADS.
I found it being a gameplay element(mini-game as it is but still, nothing really bad to it) which naturally fit for exploration focused gameplay.
It finally feels like proper scanner i would keep saying. And so i say to this day.
Although it got a bit old and stale after 100th system at which point i figured i'm spending more time in FSS scanning screen than flying around systems i would find worth staying in.
My main issue though is that having forced everyone to use FSS explorers are locked to either cherry-picking and / or 100% completion making certain playstyles unavailable.
I still advocate FSS remaining in game as it is. I would not like to see it change in its core rather than i would like to see more variety in exploration builds since FSS is the only exploration module we get(aside from probe launcher, SRV-arguably).
Furthermore it appears quite odd to me how every ship is now outfitted with what could be considered an A-rated module from the get-go.
You don't really have to save up for exploration builds anymore since it appears to be the default role of every ship.
I am against meddling with FSS but in full favour of adding other modules that would allow more playstyles for exploration.

I am glad people are voicing their opinions on this. Maybe FD notices that there is quite a crowd who would like to see exploration expanded.
Good luck with Your thread.

I won't snip your post because I agree with much of it.

I would not remove the FSS from the game either, believe it or not (even though I've had my gripes about it... and they still hold) my tongue in cheek post about the FSS being a God Module was to bring home the problem of the overwhelming advantages of the FSS over the old (overpowered) ADS which some players take for granted but deny the existance of.
However, I think it was 'OldDuck' who suggested/proposed that the FSS is on ships it has no need to be on, a combat fit Viper IIRC which I fully agree,
It made me wonder if ED could allow the option to remove certain 'currently' standard modules making the ship more match the chosen direction, for example if ED were to introduce a plethora of small exploration modules the gunports could be removed and utility ports installed thus taking the ship 'away' from combat altogether, (for clarity the '"could be removed" is optional not compulsory) and perhaps a merchant vessel might reduce fuel tankage if they found a specific route, thereby maximising profitability.
OK, I can hear some cry...."why would you want to remove a module that only does good things and doesn't use any space?" my answer is.... murshun!
Making it a game you play 'Your' way as intended.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I'd recommend sorting the tags to this thread. Some coward added pejorative tags to it suggesting initial feelings towards this thread for first time viewers.

It's surprising how low some people can stoop, the funny thing is you can get pulled by the 'Mods' for derailing a thread but the Forums allow hostile tags for threads.

That's strange. I hadn't added any tags to it. Other people can add tags to other people's threads?

Well, I removed them, at least so far as I'm aware of.

Thanks for the heads up. I suppose if others can and want to tag it, it's fair play in that sense. But yeah, seems strange to me.

I think it's important to let everyone know what those thread tags were. Can you paste them here, or summarise at least.

And to the moderators, is it possible that anybody can add thread tags?

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I hate to say it.. but as time goes on and frontier again makes a bold statement about "not being that kind of developer"..

In a completely normal and neutral way, i caught myself jumping into a new system, thinking about exploring it, concluding "couldnt be bothered using the fss" and just going on. Completely without any passion on the fact. I've accepted and adapted to the fss, where missing out on the stellar forge is a lesser evil than the fss, and its normal.

Is this the world we fly in now?

Is this really what frontier want? And you know you're about to quit when you don't feel like you're in space anymore.... how much of a part does the system map play in this given scale?

 

[Faded Glory]

However, I think it was 'OldDuck' who suggested/proposed that the FSS is on ships it has no need to be on, a combat fit Viper IIRC which I fully agree,
It made me wonder if ED could allow the option to remove certain 'currently' standard modules making the ship more match the chosen direction, for example if ED were to introduce a plethora of small exploration modules the gunports could be removed and utility ports installed thus taking the ship 'away' from combat altogether, (for clarity the '"could be removed" is optional not compulsory) and perhaps a merchant vessel might reduce fuel tankage if they found a specific route, thereby maximising profitability.
OK, I can hear some cry...."why would you want to remove a module that only does good things and doesn't use any space?" my answer is.... murshun!
Making it a game you play 'Your' way as intended.

I think it's worth saying again, that while FD may have introduced the FSS as primarily an exploration tool, and designed it with exploration in mind to cut down the requirement for potentially long SC journeys for no reason other than to scan a body, they also very much intend it as a way to 'discover' things.

As well as being a way to alert players to the existence of stuff on planets (I'm not sure it will be 100% successful at that as many players are by all accounts becoming selective about what they actually scan - the galaxy is just too big and presumably nobody has found Raxxla yet), it's also intended as a hands on way to identify USS's and a way to discover mission targets. The issue with the latter two is that there's no good way to do this unless you enjoy the actual FSS because it's just a matter of scanning everything until you come across the something you are looking for, in other words hiding the RNG behind activity rather than inactivity no actual clues to make the FSS feel like you are actually targeting something. Neither are particularly good, but it seems we're stuck with RNG so it's going to be one or the other.

FD at least left the option to scan the nav beacon to do those things, so players have a choice, which they didn't do for exploration.

That's why (IMO) it was installed as a free module in all ships rather than swapped out only if a player already had an old style discovery scanner installed. FD I suspect saw it as a future way of finding all sorts of stuff, and perhaps they still do. But who knows, other than FD how many players actually use the FSS every time they take a mission, or every time they are looking for HGE USS's.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I think it's worth saying again, that while FD may have introduced the FSS as primarily an exploration tool, and designed it with exploration in mind to cut down the requirement for potentially long SC journeys for no reason other than to scan a body, they also very much intend it as a way to 'discover' things.

As well as being a way to alert players to the existence of stuff on planets (I'm not sure it will be 100% successful at that as many players are by all accounts becoming selective about what they actually scan - the galaxy is just too big and presumably nobody has found Raxxla yet), it's also intended as a hands on way to identify USS's and a way to discover mission targets. The issue with the latter two is that there's no good way to do this unless you enjoy the actual FSS because it's just a matter of scanning everything until you come across the something you are looking for, in other words hiding the RNG behind activity rather than inactivity no actual clues to make the FSS feel like you are actually targeting something. Neither are particularly good, but it seems we're stuck with RNG so it's going to be one or the other.

FD at least left the option to scan the nav beacon to do those things, so players have a choice, which they didn't do for exploration.

That's why (IMO) it was installed as a free module in all ships rather than swapped out only if a player already had an old style discovery scanner installed. FD I suspect saw it as a future way of finding all sorts of stuff, and perhaps they still do. But who knows, other than FD how many players actually use the FSS every time they take a mission, or every time they are looking for HGE USS's.

I touched on this a day or two ago, probably in a different thread:

Tying the FSS to both planetary discovery and the new USS mechanics resulted in a process that's suboptimal for both. All the USSs are crammed up in a small part of the spectrum, with no way to differentiate between types unless you resolve them. A scanner for just USSs could have separated them out - as the planets are - making it easier for people to find the kind they are looking for. That scanner could have been integral to the ship, while leaving the FSS as an optional module. This would then have allowed the B/I/ADS to continue to exist alongside it.

A Focused Feedback Forum early in the development process would have allowed FDev to address the issues properly, rather than having to make the FSS 'free' when they realized that it was an issue for non-explorers.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I think it's worth saying again, that while FD may have introduced the FSS as primarily an exploration tool, and designed it with exploration in mind to cut down the requirement for potentially long SC journeys for no reason other than to scan a body, they also very much intend it as a way to 'discover' things.

As well as being a way to alert players to the existence of stuff on planets (I'm not sure it will be 100% successful at that as many players are by all accounts becoming selective about what they actually scan - the galaxy is just too big and presumably nobody has found Raxxla yet), it's also intended as a hands on way to identify USS's and a way to discover mission targets. The issue with the latter two is that there's no good way to do this unless you enjoy the actual FSS because it's just a matter of scanning everything until you come across the something you are looking for, in other words hiding the RNG behind activity rather than inactivity no actual clues to make the FSS feel like you are actually targeting something. Neither are particularly good, but it seems we're stuck with RNG so it's going to be one or the other.

FD at least left the option to scan the nav beacon to do those things, so players have a choice, which they didn't do for exploration.

That's why (IMO) it was installed as a free module in all ships rather than swapped out only if a player already had an old style discovery scanner installed. FD I suspect saw it as a future way of finding all sorts of stuff, and perhaps they still do. But who knows, other than FD how many players actually use the FSS every time they take a mission, or every time they are looking for HGE USS's.

It seems to becoming clear that everyone, love it or hate it, gets bored and drained by the fss on extended use. This was a hard sell during beta, and the white knights just dropped off when it happened to them they never came back and updated the opinion. Hundreds of pages of forums posts

Its a hard topic to discuss though, as attempting to solve frontiers problem isn't really our right, or ever in history accepted by frontier, and there are many ways to go about it.

Just small tweaks could make the fss more plausable in ship (less blue screen cookie clicker), and might fix it, but then we are pointlessly left arguing about development cost when they could just set a few bits and reenable the ads for a complimentary arrangement. Frontier have never stated what their goals for it were apart from removing flight and making things easier (please watch all the livestream content where frontier talk about, or use themselves the fss for any info). There's a chance that frontier genuinely have closed the book and its a just a community management issue now, eg multicrew, powerplay.

Staying in the bubble is a very valid option.

What about an autopanning feature, and a button to switch quadrants without edge movement?? Hey wait are there keyboard controls for the fss? I doubt it.. but that's something i haven't tried... hmmmm.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I hate to say it.. but as time goes on and frontier again makes a bold statement about "not being that kind of developer"..

In a completely normal and neutral way, i caught myself jumping into a new system, thinking about exploring it, concluding "couldnt be bothered using the fss" and just going on. Completely without any passion on the fact. I've accepted and adapted to the fss, where missing out on the stellar forge is a lesser evil than the fss, and its normal.

Is this the world we fly in now?

Is this really what frontier want? And you know you're about to quit when you don't feel like you're in space anymore.... how much of a part does the system map play in this given scale?

I don't know what your goal is when exploring a system, but have you tried parallax searching? I tend to check the FSS spectrum for HMCs and if there are any I'll fly out a few thousand LY then turn around and head back to the star. You can easily spot the HMCs because they'll be close in to all but the hottest stars and the orbital plane will be obvious.

Obviously, if you're looking for interesting orbits this technique is no use at all, but my goal is just to scan HIP and HD systems, with anything else just being 'see what's there'.

 

[Faded Glory]

I touched on this a day or two ago, probably in a different thread:

Tying the FSS to both planetary discovery and the new USS mechanics resulted in a process that's suboptimal for both. All the USSs are crammed up in a small part of the spectrum, with no way to differentiate between types unless you resolve them. A scanner for just USSs could have separated them out - as the planets are - making it easier for people to find the kind they are looking for. That scanner could have been integral to the ship, while leaving the FSS as an optional module. This would then have allowed the B/I/ADS to continue to exist alongside it.

A Focused Feedback Forum early in the development process would have allowed FDev to address the issues properly, rather than having to make the FSS 'free' when they realized that it was an issue for non-explorers.

Yes indeed, a way to decide if you want to 'scan' something before you scan it is one of the reasons I do not use the FSS in the bubble. Doesn't matter how fast and easy it is, doing / scanning something only to find it's not what you are looking for more than a few times is not good gameplay (and let's face it, FD have been moving away from that with USS's and mission targets from day 1), so this was a bit of a backward step.

Let's hope, if they do decide to improve it they do indeed use different modules, but I suspect it is just as likely to be a mode switch within the FSS, so you either see USS or bodies.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I don't know what your goal is when exploring a system, but have you tried parallax searching? I tend to check the FSS spectrum for HMCs and if there are any I'll fly out a few thousand LY then turn around and head back to the star. You can easily spot the HMCs because they'll be close in to all but the hottest stars and the orbital plane will be obvious.

Obviously, if you're looking for interesting orbits this technique is no use at all, but my goal is just to scan HIP and HD systems, with anything else just being 'see what's there'.

No i like being more deterministic. Looking around at the starfield while being in supercruise and listening to music does it for me. "Seeing" space, and hopefully getting something nice when i get there (as weak as that concept is sometimes).

Do you only look for specific bodies? I find the fss great to use for that.. if you're just synergistically cherry picking its not that bad...

I'll give it a go i guess.. flying until something moves. The fss would be completely brilliant for this.. once you've found something turn towards it and harvest it up directly infront of you with no panning... Could be brilliant actually... Basically using parallax clues and flight to do the bulk of the panning for you. The faint blue hud circles show up as soon as you discover it so you wouldn't have to worry about retreading space.

.. Thanks for the idea!

 

[Faded Glory]

Just small tweaks could make the fss more plausable in ship (less blue screen cookie clicker), and might fix it, but then we are pointlessly left arguing about development cost when they could just set a few bits and reenable the ads for a complimentary arrangement. Frontier have never stated what their goals for it were apart from removing flight and making things easier (please watch all the livestream content where frontier talk about, or use themselves the fss for any info). There's a chance that frontier genuinely have closed the book and its a just a community management issue now, eg multicrew, powerplay.

Actually, during the Frontier expo when they announced the Beyond updates they did indicate that it would be used for finding all sorts of things including mission targets. I'm not just making stuff up. I was very encouraged, as I find the reliance on RNG to have stuff find us really wearing over time.

When I tried out exploration with the FSS after it went live I honestly didn't find it as bad as I had anticipated. I was wrong, and admitted it, when I had said that we'd have to scan a body only to see if it were interesting, because for traditionally 'interesting' bodies that's clear as anything on the spectrum, and I was wrong in saying that exploration would involve just playing the FSS, because I don't scan every system, and when I do scan a system it's so quick so I don't spend huge amounts of time in the FSS screen.

But as we've been discussing for a long time, there are things that it simply doesn't accommodate, and adding an optional ADS back in would solve all of those issues in one go without in any way impacting those players who hated the system map reveal.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Actually, during the Frontier expo when they announced the Beyond updates they did indicate that it would be used for finding all sorts of things including mission targets. I'm not just making stuff up. I was very encouraged, as I find the reliance on RNG to have stuff find us really wearing over time.

When I tried out exploration with the FSS after it went live I honestly didn't find it as bad as I had anticipated. I was wrong, and admitted it, when I had said that we'd have to scan a body only to see if it were interesting, because for traditionally 'interesting' bodies that's clear as anything on the spectrum, and I was wrong in saying that exploration would involve just playing the FSS, because I don't scan every system, and when I do scan a system it's so quick so I don't spend huge amounts of time in the FSS screen.

But as we've been discussing for a long time, there are things that it simply doesn't accommodate, and adding an optional ADS back in would solve all of those issues in one go without in any way impacting those players who hated the system map reveal.

Yeah good point. They might have sold the spectrum like that too.

See, another option is they could just upgrade the spectrum.. if they added some distinction for mass, so you could try and guess whether a body was orbiting the main star or a moon that could have gone a long way. Even letting you select undiscovered objects to fly there.. all plausable in the lore just not done. We already have distance there, maybe putting that over the cursor could help.. Maybe having an option to "reduce motion" on the zoom in zoom out animation could fix it...

Depends on who you want to keep at peace along side frontiers black box. Frontier might value removal of the ads more than or development cost, or something we'll never know.

Frontier really should have done more than one pass on the fss. People were in good faith trying the fss during the beta and reporting MEDICAL PROBLEMS it was triggering and that wasn't enough to move frontier... i don't think im supposed to say anymore

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

No i like being more deterministic. Looking around at the starfield while being in supercruise and listening to music does it for me. "Seeing" space, and hopefully getting something nice when i get there (as weak as that concept is sometimes).

Do you only look for specific bodies? I find the fss great to use for that.. if you're just synergistically cherry picking its not that bad...

I'll give it a go i guess.. flying until something moves. The fss would be completely brilliant for this.. once you've found something turn towards it and harvest it up directly infront of you with no panning... Could be brilliant actually... Basically using parallax clues and flight to do the bulk of the panning for you. The faint blue hud circles show up as soon as you discover it so you wouldn't have to worry about retreading space.

.. Thanks for the idea!

It's all about the flying for me too. I just use HMCs as a convenient trigger for whether I'm going to explore a particular system - otherwise I'd probably explore EVERY system and not get to the ones I'm actually targeting

I frequently find myself continuing to survey a system beyond the reason I started, simply because I see another moving dot in the distance and I then HAVE to resolve it. Then I'll realize I've scanned bodies 6 and 8 and have to fly all the way back across the system to find number 7!

Parallax exploration makes me feel like I've achieved something in a way that the FSS doesn't - because I've been flying my spaceship around. The only problem with it is that bodies that lie a long way off the orbital plane are almost impossible to find.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

It's all about the flying for me too. I just use HMCs as a convenient trigger for whether I'm going to explore a particular system - otherwise I'd probably explore EVERY system and not get to the ones I'm actually targeting

I frequently find myself continuing to survey a system beyond the reason I started, simply because I see another moving dot in the distance and I then HAVE to resolve it. Then I'll realize I've scanned bodies 6 and 8 and have to fly all the way back across the system to find number 7!

Parallax exploration makes me feel like I've achieved something in a way that the FSS doesn't - because I've been flying my spaceship around. The only problem with it is that bodies that lie a long way off the orbital plane are almost impossible to find.

Oh yeah thats always been a problem for me too. Given the eternity of it all out of the bubble i just split it up between travelling and exploring. I know its a bit counter to what i suggested earlier. Once you get to a place travelled, switch to economic mode and go for a wonder.

Not sure if that's how it turns out, but it sounds appealing for flight to be nothing but fishing out parallax to start with, then once discovered, or something interesting discovered having a system of options to go see. Using the fss to cheat your way to discovery only after you have a clue about it sounds fun. Can't wait to try it tonight.

It makes sense that things really far away are not going to get discovered via parallax. The real science method also came to mind straight away.. take advancing screenshots and subtract them in photoshop. Why didn't frontier build that?!