What do you mean by "core level"? How is that relevant to the modern day?
General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: To Be, Or Not To Be Vegan? That Is The Question ...
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What do you mean by "core level"? How is that relevant to the modern day?
A big part of any human population problem is how to feed all these people as well as the impact of people on their environment.
Using land to raise/feed meat animals is far less efficient than using that land to grow food that will be directly consumed by people. The feed conversion rate for cattle, for example, is horrible...every pound of meat you get from a cow requires seven to ten pounds of feed. This also directly relates to the ecological impact and pollution involved in getting that meat.
Poultry, (farmed) fish, and insects are the animal proteins of the future. Beef and pork will still be around, but as populations continue to grow and the newly affluent demand those meats, prices will rise dramatically...at least until we can start growing synthetic meat cheaply.
The majority of the survivors, sure.
There isn't anywhere near enough planet or wilderness left to support ~8 billion hunter-gatherers. World population before the Neolithic revolution was in the ballpark of 3-5 million people, and if everyone was forced to return to hunting and gathering, they would quickly fall to levels far closer to that than what we've got now, or even what's considered broadly sustainable now. Without significant agriculture, ~99% of people would need to die.
I like to eat fish.
Cod mainly. The lobster or tuna is too expensive for me.
Tuna tends to have quite a bit of mercury in it anyway.
I think he was pointing out that trying to grow wheat in most parts of Australia is foolish, even reckless, and an exception to the broadly correct idea that the more plant based the diet, the more sustainable it is.
Jenner
I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
It's an interesting article that @Bob Lighthouse posted and the argument that some land is better used to produce animal protein than nothing at all is compelling, at least on the surface. I live in Arizona, and like Australia we have a lot of land that is not arable but is fine for cattle grazing. If we are only interested in maximizing the amount of human population we can sustain then yes - we should use that land to produce cattle. It's not so simple, though. Producing ruminants necessarily comes with a large increase in methane emission, which contributes greatly to global warming. Finishing cattle in feedlots is bad for the local environment too, given the amount of animal waste concentrated there which can pollute water supplies, etc. There is also the moral/ethical consideration that comes with murdering a sentient creature to produce food for ourselves.
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
How Hardwired Is Human Behavior?
Survival occurs on an individual level, not just at a (thankfully hypothetical) global level, everytime someone runs out of fuel in the middle of nowhere.
What you lookin' at? Yer lookin' at me smoked ham, ahn't ya? Don't Need to look like dat at me ham. Is me ham and no sharing!
Jenner
I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
Estimated bison population in the US prior to the 1500s was 30-60 million.
Current domestic cattle population in the US is 94 million.
Ok, I get what you are saying, however, hunting/gathering doesn't seem to be one of those hardwired things anymore, otherwise I don't know why virtually nobody does that nowadays.
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
Naturally, but the semantics are important imo.
That's because the change in population is going to outpace any meager gains made by eating less impactful foods.
Not neccesarily.
Pasture land just "is" and requires very little in the way of intervention.
Not so for growing crops, that land has to be resown every year, which takes a lot of energy.
We don't do that by hand.
We also use lots of petrochemicals to do so.
It's nit quite so clear cut.
Cattle don't subsist entirely off of feed, and even feedlot cattle generally spend half their life in pasture.
I simply don't see it happening.
Farmed fish?
Lol, I highly doubt that.
They have all the same problems, but it's compounded by them living in water, and we don't.
That translates to costs.
Furthermore, as the Aus article suggests, pasture lands fine for beef production are often unsuitable for crops in the first place.
Use to be once upon a time that some individuals rather than hunting for meat raised their own. As time passed some individuals got lazy and hired hunter's to hunt for them and or bought meat from those who raised them. Jump ahead a few thousand years and there's considerably more lazy individuals whom now rely on hunter's and or raised meat to eat. Personally I find that buying meat from someone who raised it easier and cheaper than buying it from those that hunt it.
Today, those the raise meat to be sold for a profit are large corporations who have multitudes of investors. Some of which are listed on the various stock exchanges. Most can be found included in most 401k's and other such small investment portfolios.
In addition though eating meat can evolve health issues, so can a 100% vegan diet. Basically the debate can boil down to do what YOU think is right and allow me to do the same.
Today, those the raise meat to be sold for a profit are large corporations who have multitudes of investors. Some of which are listed on the various stock exchanges. Most can be found included in most 401k's and other such small investment portfolios.
In addition though eating meat can evolve health issues, so can a 100% vegan diet. Basically the debate can boil down to do what YOU think is right and allow me to do the same.
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
Is that from Red Dead Redemption Online?North American ruminant biomass was very high in times past, until:
(runs away and hides
)Bob Lighthouse
Banned
Is that from Red Dead Redemption Online?
(runs away and hides
Yes.
It's a pile of glitched bison.
I hope you made your money, I sure did!
Are you unable to tell the difference between ripe and unripe fruit?
Are you unable to spot movement out of the corner of your eye?
Are you unable to to spot a group of birds take off or a crow circling?
Are those skills exclusive to hunting/gathering?
Correct, you still didn't answer my question.
Fish stocks have been ravaged too by over-fishing... While healthier than meat, it's still not helping over all.I like to eat fish.
Cod mainly. The lobster or tuna is too expensive for me.
I suppose in the end, what we need is a population cull. One change that our modern civilisation has brought is there are fewer wars of any scale, so people don't die off, and in addition we live longer.