Notice A statement on cheating in Elite Dangerous.

[Ralph Vargr]

BGS and Powerplay. These cheats are not only being used to get a edge in pvp, but they are being used to further BGS and Powerplay activities.

Hmmm. What if I am not interested in BGS/PP?

 

[ryan_m]

Hmmm. What if I am not interested in BGS/PP?

Every single player is affected by BGS and PP because it is shared across all modes.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You can literally one-shot NPCs with these cheats, so yeah, there's a pretty big difference. If you can kill 5x faster than another comparable ship, you can do 5x as much work in the same amount of time.

PvE is easy if you're looking at it through the lens of a single fight. Mowing down NPCs requires absolutely zero real thought after a while and gets boring incredibly quickly. That's the reason people move to PvP, for a challenge based on combat skill between players, not who can spend more time shooting NPCs.

It really is disheartening to see you try and minimize this across 20 pages because I know you know the impact.

I understand the impact. I think its being overstated. I'm also wondering how many are actually using cheats to intentionally work the BGS. Of course, they all could be doing it (not likely of course, but possible).

 

[Agony_Aunt]

PvP is hardly the only part of my game and that question here is totally irrelevant.

Conflict zones are much tougher these days. They also have secondary objectives that are worth completing. A cheater would have an unfair advantage over a non cheater, period.

To downplay it like you are is pathetic.

To overplay it like you are is also pathetic.

Are we done being insulting?

I'm not saying it doesn't have an effect, i'm asking how much and musing in terms of time how much of real impact it really has.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Are you kidding? One dedicated cheater could do the work of several pilots. Take a conflict zone, for example. Crank up your lasers and smoke all the NPCs you need in moments. Rinse and repeat without ever needing to return to base.

Use your head and stop downplaying like this.

Then they wouldn't be that effective. Anyone with any knowledge of the BGS knows you return to hand in your bonds after a single wave. Its not effective to stay out longer.

Ok, they can clear a wave in 5 mins instead of 10 with their insta kill weapons. They still have to do the flying back to base and stuff.

And i would hope, someone using the cheats so extremely would be easier to detect for FD, even if they can't directly detect the use of the hack, there must be algorithms that trigger when someone is making contact and kills so quickly. At the end of the day, the server has to confirm those kills. Must be plenty of telemetry to help FD spot it.

 

[ryan_m]

I understand the impact. I think its being overstated. I'm also wondering how many are actually using cheats to intentionally work the BGS. Of course, they all could be doing it (not likely of course, but possible).

If FDev actually had good cheat detection, they could provide numbers easily, couldn't they?

 

[ryan_m]

And yet you can totally ignore both and still enjoy the game. What now?

Yeah you're right. Cheating isn't a problem. Pack it up, boys.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If FDev actually had good cheat detection, they could provide numbers easily, couldn't they?

They could provide numbers with bad cheat detection as well.

We know they don't want to release numbers.

We can assume their cheat detection could be better as well, since the cheaters seem to get away with a lot.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Every single player is affected by BGS and PP because it is shared across all modes.

Indeed, it is.

Unfortunately, the names of the factions on the bulletin board are all that changes on the BGS. My standard move is to get allied with each one.

With Power Play, I never felt the need to grind for the goodies. As a solo-only player, PvE was my main area, not PvP, or having more people out to kill me. Another good reason to move to Colonia. Bye, Power Play.

Frontier would need to spend money to address cheats. Good luck with that.

 

[Troopi]

I know its not actually offline, but the effect is, as if it is offline. If anything that a player does in this perma-ban mode can't change, affect, or influence the main game, then what is the point of not allowing modding? I would love to see a vibrant modding community grow up around Elite like it has with games like Skyrim. Its the modding community that has kept games like that alive and flourishing way past their used by date. Just to be clear (because I know someone will say it), I know Elite hasn't reached its used by date, but I could see so much more growth with the help of a modding community, particularly in a mode that was offline or acted in that way. There is no statement that this mode is in anyway connected to the main game. That is, until stated otherwise, it is just an assumption.

If they indeed created some "mod allowed servers", I would definitely work my skills to change the AspX 3d model. I love the ship, but I hate its shape. ugh!

 

[Ozric]

Every single player is affected by BGS and PP because it is shared across all modes.

I have my ships parked at Jameson Memorial. I spend 95% of my time exploring out in the void. How do they affect me?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I have my ships parked at Jameson Memorial. I spend 95% of my time exploring out in the void. How do they affect me?

Well that data would be worth 200% with LYR for a start. And that if you leave a system it might change hands to be a more dangerous one when you return again.

 

[Ozric]

Shinrarta can't change hands, so other people selling data is inconsequential to me.

 

[Rob_Mathewson]

I'm no programmer, although have done some DBA in past roles, so was thinking, could FD not create field triggers that flag up suspicious value fluctuations for things like shield strengths, weapon stats, mass lock factor and the like that would flag up anything that simply isn't possible within the laws of legit game-play? Then create a database report highlighting accounts where triggers have been identified that they could review on a weekly basis. Or even set field value limiters so that stats cannot be altered beyond their ceiling limit so the hacks simply would not work as the entry rules would be broken? Surely this couldn't be that hard to implement?

 

[UFO Reality]

Give us a ship stats scan module so that CMDRs can hunt down cheaters as part of gameplay !!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'm no programmer, although have done some DBA in past roles, so was thinking, could FD not create field triggers that flag up suspicious value fluctuations for things like shield strengths, weapon stats, mass lock factor and the like that would flag up anything that simply isn't possible within the laws of legit game-play? Then create a database report highlighting accounts where triggers have been identified that they could review on a weekly basis. Or even set field value limiters so that stats cannot be altered beyond their ceiling limit so the hacks simply would not work as the entry rules would be broken? Surely this couldn't be that hard to implement?

The hard bit would be passing every state change through a trusted database at ~60FPS * concurrent players.

The harder bit would be getting useful data out of it.

The maximum rated boost speed of a ship is around 950m/s. The fastest speed that people have legitimately got ships to travel without supercruise is considerably faster than that. Set the flag limit at 950m/s and a bunch of legit players doing extreme stuff get flagged. Set it at the few thousand m/s needed to avoid that and it's useless for speed cheat detection. Conversely, even at 950m/s there are plenty of cases where a ship could be going slower than that and still faster than it could be travelling without cheats.

Repeat for most other parameters, and what you actually need to do is run the entire simulation server-side on trusted hardware ... which would have interesting side effects in that your inputs would be a network round trip (probably 1/5 second best case for most players) away from you seeing the result of them ... and that would not be fun at all.

 

[Goose4291]

I can't help but notice that some of the same people in this thread who have historically moaned

PvP is toxic, awful behavior done by toxic, awful people!! Frontier needs to BAN THEM ALL!!!

Are now taking the position of

Hackers are going to hack, and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. And it isn't like they ruin YOUR day, so what's the problem?

Gettimg that feeling myself.

 

[Goose4291]

Then they wouldn't be that effective. Anyone with any knowledge of the BGS knows you return to hand in your bonds after a single wave. Its not effective to stay out longer.

Ok, they can clear a wave in 5 mins instead of 10 with their insta kill weapons. They still have to do the flying back to base and stuff.

And i would hope, someone using the cheats so extremely would be easier to detect for FD, even if they can't directly detect the use of the hack, there must be algorithms that trigger when someone is making contact and kills so quickly. At the end of the day, the server has to confirm those kills. Must be plenty of telemetry to help FD spot it.

Lets expand on that. We'll use your numbers as well for sake of argument (although I suspect they could clear it a damn sight quicker than the arbitary number you've come to).

This means (in an hour) they're clearing 12 CZ's to your 6.
When you take into account that on top of that these sort of people are the kind who have no qualm about using bots, that means they could clear 288 CZ's per day without fail.
I at the height of my ED love, (when off work for months at a time between appointments) could barely manage 8hrs of constant gameplay (when you account for breaks and the like), meaning I'm only clearing 48 CZ's for my Faction.

That's a net advantage of 240 CZ's. Using your own numbers.

 

[Troopi]

Lets expand on that. We'll use your numbers as well for sake of argument (although I suspect they could clear it a damn sight quicker than the arbitary number you've come to).

This means (in an hour) they're clearing 12 CZ's to your 6.
When you take into account that on top of that these sort of people are the kind who have no qualm about using bots, that means they could clear 288 CZ's per day without fail.
I at the height of my ED love, (when off work for months at a time between appointments) could barely manage 8hrs of constant gameplay (when you account for breaks and the like), meaning I'm only clearing 48 CZ's for my Faction.

That's a net advantage of 240 CZ's. Using your own numbers.

Then if FD limits the daily quota of Bonds delivery to 12 CZ, it would be pointless for cheaters to exploit it.
One would need several players per day delivering bonds to effectively change the system. Wait... I think that is actually what happens in game...
Does anyone can attest for this extreme delivery of Combat bonds by one single person in 1 day having such meaningful effect in a conflict?

 

[Goose4291]

Then if FD limits the daily quota of Bonds delivery to 12 CZ, it would be pointless for cheaters to exploit it.
One would need several players per day delivering bonds to effectively change the system. Wait... I think that is actually what happens in game...

Which opens up a whole new nightmare scenario... one where the only thing that determines victory in a BGS Stand and fight is who's got the most players. Skill, perseverance or dedication cease to matter anymore and we take another step towards this being a SpaceFarmville in terms of required engagement.

And no, thats not how it works at present.

Instead of counting every transaction, it's now only counting transactions over a certain threshold of value. Don't let the fancy GUI fool you, as this is still the case:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/8d4fw1 Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/8d4fw1/the_once_secret_bgs_mechanics_and_the_unfortunate/

Does anyone can attest for this extreme delivery of Combat bonds by one single person in 1 day having such meaningful effect in a conflict?

I once managed to beat a group (who shall remain nameless) with a 15-20 active playerbase that cowered in solo or PGs singlehandedly using a combat adder in open under the old system (which the big groups knew about and kept schtum for a long time, till it affected them) by turning in 1 bond at a time over the course of the whole war, after dunking on their system authority ships to initially trigger the war.

And let's not get into my undermining in PP...