Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

Talking about randomising game events:

Stellaris dev Pdox sold an expansion that allowed to construct megastructures. Tho it depended on whether you discovered a "rare" tech during your playthrough. You either spent hours of time until you would find out whether your playthrough would qualify for "megastructures" or went the sure way of picking perks that allow it which limted the variety of gameplay.
It is now reworked and they threw this crappy randomised stuff out. I mean if you sell your product and then the users have to roll dice to experience it - why would people be happy about that?
It's the same with ED, it was taken to eleven with 2.1 but the toning down hasn't brought the randomised gameplay to reasonable levels. It shows everywhere where some engineer content rears its ugly head.
 
If you equip vanilla guns and run into the bulletsponges you'll understand. AI went from mildly challenging to Festung Alpenstein Castle. It took me significantly longer to kill them. Not a good idea in CZ where the AI tends to go all lemming on you while the rest on your side is no help at all. I mostly blame the spawning mechanics in CZ for the lemming effect, but slow killspeed is what makes any horde mode utterly tiring and unfun. And even if they spawn randomly - I'm not gambling my time to find out my guns do again jack crap against some randomly hardened stuff.
And apart from that - how cool is it to see the work of all the grind you did get nerfed to near-uselessness. That is rhetorical question.
This illustrates my previous post particularly well! 🤣
 

DeletedUser191218

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Most of the time I am just trying to find out the issue. Most of the time there isn't one and they have convinced themselves that there is.

I haven't seen your particular posts. I'm only commenting in what I see as a general pattern. It's a fairly well known 'thing' on these threads. It has been well documented. Discussion topics become toxic and personal very quickly. Complainants get accused of whining etc etc. I've heard the 'snowflake' term used on a number of occasions. I have my own view about the bias in moderation, but there are a vocal number who make any discussion about dissenting views degrade into toxicity. I've literally just experienced someone attack my view on engineering by regurgitating a discussion I raised several months ago expressing a belief that may, in hindsight, be incorrect. That's just bile. I'm sick of the ED community. People like to pretend it's all sweetness and light - it's genuinely, from my experience, one of the most toxic of any online game I've played. Perhaps that's skewed by these forums.
 
I haven't seen your particular posts. I'm only commenting in what I see as a general pattern. It's a fairly well known 'thing' on these threads. It has been well documented. Discussion topics become toxic and personal very quickly. Complainants get accused of whining etc etc. I've heard the 'snowflake' term used on a number of occasions. I have my own view about the bias in moderation, but there are a vocal number who make any discussion about dissenting views degrade into toxicity. I've literally just experienced someone attack my view on engineering by regurgitating a discussion I raised several months ago expressing a belief that may, in hindsight, be incorrect. That's just bile. I'm sick of the ED community. People like to pretend it's all sweetness and light - it's genuinely, from my experience, one of the most toxic of any online game I've played. Perhaps that's skewed by these forums.
Dont confuse Max with the resident toxitroll who tries to crap on anyone posting criticism here. Max will try to point out why it isnt actually so bad - a stance I respect. The ones flinging their indirect insults - not so much.
 
If you equip vanilla guns and run into the bulletsponges you'll understand. AI went from mildly challenging to Festung Alpenstein Castle. It took me significantly longer to kill them. Not a good idea in CZ where the AI tends to go all lemming on you while the rest on your side is no help at all. I mostly blame the spawning mechanics in CZ for the lemming effect, but slow killspeed is what makes any horde mode utterly tiring and unfun. And even if they spawn randomly - I'm not gambling my time to find out my guns do again jack crap against some randomly hardened stuff.
And apart from that - how cool is it to see the work of all the grind you did get nerfed to near-uselessness. That is rhetorical question.
No the AI is not that tough. It went from spinning kebab sitting duck to something that actually fought back. So if you go in a vanilla A graded python or vulture, Cobra Mk3s and Viper Mk3s no matter how engineered they are will go down very quickly. As I said target the correct ships until you get the required mats for G1-2 upgrade when cu you can get by doing the gameplay you already do.

Also in my experience there are no bullet sponge NPCs as they don't have good enough engineered modules for that.
 
Bullet sponge NPC are in CZ and PP variety of CZ. Also in Pirate threat zones and in Wing Pirate assasination missions.
Stay out of those if you dont have heavily engineered ships.

I sometimes take a non engineered Eagle to a Nav Beacon and shoot wanted NPC, pretty funny and entertaining
 
Yeah, I notice on these types of threads (the moany ones) that good people such as yourself try and help the ones who are struggling, but they just ignore you and keep on moaning! 😆

You're seeing what you want to see, Winter. It's called confirmation bias. I started this thread because I was genuinely interested in what people thought. I've read a wide range of responses. I disagree with some, agree with others and find myself completely bemused by others, but I'm not seeing 'good' posters, I'm not reading about people 'struggling' and the 'moaning' is on both sides of the polarised debate on whether engineering is good or bad. That polarised question wasn't part of my OP and it hasn't featured in most of the replies to my op.

Tbh, characterising people who disagree with you in a negative manner is a natural thing to do and I'm not criticising you for it, I'm just not sure if you're aware that's what you're doing?

I haven't seen your particular posts. I'm only commenting in what I see as a general pattern. It's a fairly well known 'thing' on these threads. It has been well documented. Discussion topics become toxic and personal very quickly. Complainants get accused of whining etc etc. I've heard the 'snowflake' term used on a number of occasions. I have my own view about the bias in moderation, but there are a vocal number who make any discussion about dissenting views degrade into toxicity. I've literally just experienced someone attack my view on engineering by regurgitating a discussion I raised several months ago expressing a belief that may, in hindsight, be incorrect. That's just bile. I'm sick of the ED community. People like to pretend it's all sweetness and light - it's genuinely, from my experience, one of the most toxic of any online game I've played. Perhaps that's skewed by these forums.

Again, that's not what I'm seeing, either on the forum or in game. There are trolls in both- that comes with the territory- but on almost every thread I've started or read, someone has pitched in with useful or helpful information. I think that in general it's a friendly and welcoming community, characterised by abrasive posters. Most of us could be described as curmudgeons! It doesn't make us bad people... ;)
 
No the AI is not that tough. It went from spinning kebab sitting duck to something that actually fought back. So if you go in a vanilla A graded python or vulture, Cobra Mk3s and Viper Mk3s no matter how engineered they are will go down very quickly. As I said target the correct ships until you get the required mats for G1-2 upgrade when cu you can get by doing the gameplay you already do.

Also in my experience there are no bullet sponge NPCs as they don't have good enough engineered modules for that.

Those weren't really problematic. I have a D rated Python miner with fixed beams and turret burst. Anything up to Viper / Cobra I tackled with that. No the problematic stuff was higher up, like FdL and such. I ran into a Clipper that wouldn't really take hull damage. I had to ram it with my FAS to kill it. There were several such random encounters.
 
Those weren't really problematic. I have a D rated Python miner with fixed beams and turret burst. Anything up to Viper / Cobra I tackled with that. No the problematic stuff was higher up, like FdL and such. I ran into a Clipper that wouldn't really take hull damage. I had to ram it with my FAS to kill it. There were several such random encounters.
I must be lucky because I haven't come across anything like that.

Check you materials and see if you have any sulfur. One will get you grade 1 efficient lasers. I havent checked the cannons yet, but it will be just two materials and as materials come in units of three it will take no time.
 
I must be lucky because I haven't come across anything like that.

Check you materials and see if you have any sulfur. One will get you grade 1 efficient lasers. I havent checked the cannons yet, but it will be just two materials and as materials come in units of three it will take no time.
I'll keep it in mind. I probably need to unlock some laser idiot first but I don't really object to some unlocking requirements.
I wouldn't mind if they have their super AI for the meta-edgelords in certain regions. The way they just spawned on me felt pushy and annoying.
 
Yeah, I notice on these types of threads (the moany ones) that good people such as yourself try and help the ones who are struggling, but they just ignore you and keep on moaning! 😆
I agree with this. The trouble is, as you've hinted, this isn't an "asking for help" thread; it's a "having a moan" thread. Offering help (which has been done a fair bit in this thread and a parallel one) therefore doesn't really solve anything.
 
All I can say is I am happy that you are happy playing your new games. As I said before, if ED is no longer your thing there are probably loads of games out there that will scrarch that itch! ED is just 1 of a long line of fantastic games I have played since I was a kid. I don't know why people make such a big deal of moving on! When I no longer enjoy ED I'm outta here and onto.... maybe TES6?! And you won't hear from me again because I will be far too busy playing a sneaky Khajit running rings around the Aldmari Dominion once again! 😼

Thanks mate. I think the 'big deal' is how emotionally attached some of us are to ED. It was a huge part of my youth and it's been the best gaming experience I've ever had for most of it's current iteration. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want to move on, I just want to play the game I love.

On a personal level, power creep hits every game sooner or later, but this one has been particularly cruel in the way it's inflicted a time intensive game mechanism on established players.
It took me years to reach Elite. I've watched youtubers do it in an afternoon, but that's not the way I wanted to play. I had enormous fun and a great deal of satisfaction doing things my own way, including figuring out a whole bunch of game mechanics on my own. (Yeah, I'm one of those BGS weirdos! 😁 )

There isn't a way around the massive time sink created by engineering- if you want or need engineering, you have to gather materials. If you want to do it efficiently, you have to make use of out of game resources- boards and forums, third party software, ever changing walkthroughs on social media.
It's an enormous undertaking.
What's particularly galling is the way it takes just as long to engineer a small ship as one of the Big Three.
For a new player, working toward an Annaconda or similar, engineering is something that can be done along the way.
For someone with a fleet that took almost four years to assemble, it's not going to be quite that simple.

Knowing that I just don't have the time, even if I had the inclination, is utterly crushing.

Which is probably why so many frustrated players flounce off in a huff! 😄

Busywork: work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.

I find mats by just playing the game. So if just playing the game is busywork, you are not going to enjoy it whether there are engineer's or not.

What people call busywork these days is gameplay they don't want to do.

See above, Max. 'Just playing the game' for three years got me enough materials to part engineer one Python. I have over a dozen ships I want to restore to their previous level of ability. Most were specialists of one shade or another, so the blueprint that works for my Vulture, say, is useless for my Vipers. With the time I have available it would take years to get the fleet back to where it was, relatively speaking, this time last year, even if all I do is grind mats in the most efficient manner I can manage. I'll never gather enough materials to complete the task in the course of normal gameplay.

Most of the time I am just trying to find out the issue. Most of the time there isn't one and they have convinced themselves that there is.

My issue is that my entire fleet has been made obsolete by power creep introduced to offer engineered ship builds a reasonable level of challenge.

The game very cleverly scales difficulty based on your in game rank and your current ship. I'm Elite and my 'current ship' is obsolete and needs engineering to make it competitive. I face outrageously heavily engineered NPCs as a matter of course- their shields are all but impenetrable, but even if I get through them their hit point pool is immense. I'm taking on axe murderers with a nerf gun! 😆

I'm time constrained, engineering a single ship takes me many weeks. I have a large fleet, I don't have years to throw away bringing them up to a reasonable standard.

And there's a pretty strong possibility that other mechanisms will be introduced into the game which will also take a considerable amount of time to retrofit into my fleet.

So I have an uncomfortable choice to make- grind for an extended period just to make my ships competitive, or abandon the bulk of them, which effectively means throwing away four years of progress.

That's an enormous issue for me, Max.

How long have you played Elite? Care to give up four years progress, or (potentially) spend many months, possibly years, min/maxing a game activity you don't enjoy to regain that progress?

Compared to their performance relative to other ships last year, my fast ships are no longer fast, my fighters and warships are no longer well armed, my traders and miner are no longer well defended, my long range explorer cannot keep up with friend's engineered explorer builds.

I know you may not see this as an important issue, but can you see how it completely changes my game experience? I have to run from every encounter, even against NPCs, or face almost certain destruction, I can't take part in community activities, I can't even keep up with my fellow explorers. It's a game breaking issue for me.
 
Thanks mate. I think the 'big deal' is how emotionally attached some of us are to ED. It was a huge part of my youth and it's been the best gaming experience I've ever had for most of it's current iteration. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want to move on, I just want to play the game I love.

On a personal level, power creep hits every game sooner or later, but this one has been particularly cruel in the way it's inflicted a time intensive game mechanism on established players.
It took me years to reach Elite. I've watched youtubers do it in an afternoon, but that's not the way I wanted to play. I had enormous fun and a great deal of satisfaction doing things my own way, including figuring out a whole bunch of game mechanics on my own. (Yeah, I'm one of those BGS weirdos! 😁 )

There isn't a way around the massive time sink created by engineering- if you want or need engineering, you have to gather materials. If you want to do it efficiently, you have to make use of out of game resources- boards and forums, third party software, ever changing walkthroughs on social media.
It's an enormous undertaking.
What's particularly galling is the way it takes just as long to engineer a small ship as one of the Big Three.
For a new player, working toward an Annaconda or similar, engineering is something that can be done along the way.
For someone with a fleet that took almost four years to assemble, it's not going to be quite that simple.

Knowing that I just don't have the time, even if I had the inclination, is utterly crushing.

Which is probably why so many frustrated players flounce off in a huff! 😄



See above, Max. 'Just playing the game' for three years got me enough materials to part engineer one Python. I have over a dozen ships I want to restore to their previous level of ability. Most were specialists of one shade or another, so the blueprint that works for my Vulture, say, is useless for my Vipers. With the time I have available it would take years to get the fleet back to where it was, relatively speaking, this time last year, even if all I do is grind mats in the most efficient manner I can manage. I'll never gather enough materials to complete the task in the course of normal gameplay.



My issue is that my entire fleet has been made obsolete by power creep introduced to offer engineered ship builds a reasonable level of challenge.

The game very cleverly scales difficulty based on your in game rank and your current ship. I'm Elite and my 'current ship' is obsolete and needs engineering to make it competitive. I face outrageously heavily engineered NPCs as a matter of course- their shields are all but impenetrable, but even if I get through them their hit point pool is immense. I'm taking on axe murderers with a nerf gun! 😆

I'm time constrained, engineering a single ship takes me many weeks. I have a large fleet, I don't have years to throw away bringing them up to a reasonable standard.

And there's a pretty strong possibility that other mechanisms will be introduced into the game which will also take a considerable amount of time to retrofit into my fleet.

So I have an uncomfortable choice to make- grind for an extended period just to make my ships competitive, or abandon the bulk of them, which effectively means throwing away four years of progress.

That's an enormous issue for me, Max.

How long have you played Elite? Care to give up four years progress, or (potentially) spend many months, possibly years, min/maxing a game activity you don't enjoy to regain that progress?

Compared to their performance relative to other ships last year, my fast ships are no longer fast, my fighters and warships are no longer well armed, my traders and miner are no longer well defended, my long range explorer cannot keep up with friend's engineered explorer builds.

I know you may not see this as an important issue, but can you see how it completely changes my game experience? I have to run from every encounter, even against NPCs, or face almost certain destruction, I can't take part in community activities, I can't even keep up with my fellow explorers. It's a game breaking issue for me.

Imo, FD really needs to uncouple the scaling from the combat rank and instead give players the opportunity to pick their own poison. I don't want to run the mill because some random spawn pushes me - whereas I might be fine simply tottering on about and have me do it playing the bloody game. That's what we were here for, weren't we?
 
Imo, FD really needs to uncouple the scaling from the combat rank and instead give players the opportunity to pick their own poison. I don't want to run the mill because some random spawn pushes me - whereas I might be fine simply tottering on about and have me do it playing the bloody game. That's what we were here for, weren't we?
Combat ranks should really go up and down depending on how well you do. So if you go up a rank then keep dying you will go down again start winning again and eventually you will get good enough to stay on the next rank. That way it become self regulating.
 
See above, Max. 'Just playing the game' for three years got me enough materials to part engineer one Python. I have over a dozen ships I want to restore to their previous level of ability. Most were specialists of one shade or another, so the blueprint that works for my Vulture, say, is useless for my Vipers. With the time I have available it would take years to get the fleet back to where it was, relatively speaking, this time last year, even if all I do is grind mats in the most efficient manner I can manage. I'll never gather enough materials to complete the task in the course of normal gameplay.
It takes one unit of sulfur as that gives you three bits of sulfur to upgrade three laser based modules to G1. You don't need to fully upgrade a ship for it to be relevant. I have got loads of upgrades on my ships from just playing the game, but I make sure I pick up the mats when they are around.

My issue is that my entire fleet has been made obsolete by power creep introduced to offer engineered ship builds a reasonable level of challenge.
Powercreep is very annoying and they should have been sidegrades or such minor upgrades it wouldn't have been so bad if you didn't bother.

The game very cleverly scales difficulty based on your in game rank and your current ship. I'm Elite and my 'current ship' is obsolete and needs engineering to make it competitive. I face outrageously heavily engineered NPCs as a matter of course- their shields are all but impenetrable, but even if I get through them their hit point pool is immense. I'm taking on axe murderers with a nerf gun! 😆
Combat ranks in my view should be self regulating. If you go up a rank and you can't survive, if you get killed a number of times, you should go back down a rank.

I'm time constrained, engineering a single ship takes me many weeks. I have a large fleet, I don't have years to throw away bringing them up to a reasonable standard.
I play twice a week, for two hours each time. Most of my ships have engineered modules on them and I have never once done any grind for materials. I just make sure I pick them up when I see them.

And there's a pretty strong possibility that other mechanisms will be introduced into the game which will also take a considerable amount of time to retrofit into my fleet.
I hope they don't do anything like that again.

So I have an uncomfortable choice to make- grind for an extended period just to make my ships competitive, or abandon the bulk of them, which effectively means throwing away four years of progress.
Competitive? Do you PvP? Really that is the main reason to grind to get engineer's.

That's an enormous issue for me, Max.

How long have you played Elite? Care to give up four years progress, or (potentially) spend many months, possibly years, min/maxing a game activity you don't enjoy to regain that progress?
I have been playing since original beta/gamma. I also don't want my fleet to bed me obsolete so I will engineer them when I can.

Compared to their performance relative to other ships last year, my fast ships are no longer fast, my fighters and warships are no longer well armed, my traders and miner are no longer well defended, my long range explorer cannot keep up with friend's engineered explorer builds.
Nothing anyone can do about it apart from engineer you ships. Nothing I can do about it but give advice on how to get your mats without grinding for them.

I know you may not see this as an important issue, but can you see how it completely changes my game experience? I have to run from every encounter, even against NPCs, or face almost certain destruction, I can't take part in community activities, I can't even keep up with my fellow explorers. It's a game breaking issue for me.
It does and again I would have preferred if they were side grades instead of these ridiculous upgrades. But I want to continue to play the game so I will engineer my ships in the best way I can without having to grind like crazy for them. Yep, it's taken me a lot my time to upgrade my ships as none of them are fully upgraded, but that's fine as none of them are obsolete.

What the game is, is what it is. We just have to make the best of the bits we don't like to get to the bits we do. This happens in nearly all games out there.
 
I agree with this. The trouble is, as you've hinted, this isn't an "asking for help" thread; it's a "having a moan" thread. Offering help (which has been done a fair bit in this thread and a parallel one) therefore doesn't really solve anything.
It is largely a complaint thread. From ppl disgruntled with engineers and from ppl disgruntled with criticism. (Tho it doesn't take much to stay away then). As for help, the tone always sets the music - and what music you play I can already tell from you classifying the issues ppl have as "moaning".
 
I must be lucky because I haven't come across anything like that.

Check you materials and see if you have any sulfur. One will get you grade 1 efficient lasers. I havent checked the cannons yet, but it will be just two materials and as materials come in units of three it will take no time.

I have, I've hit some pythons and FDLs in some CZs that wouldn't budge without some notable firepower enhancement. Needless to say some high rank large ships were like endurance challenges in the same unengineered outfits.

Only kind of though. When was the last time you died to an NPC in combat?

Disengaging is painfully easy though, so how often can you expect to die if you're paying attention.
 
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I don't have a particular problem with engineering. Of course there is tedium, but in the end you are afforded the means to tune the ship you want in the direction that you want to take it into.

Over the past two weeks I have tuned my Cobra MkIII to be a superior exploration ship, having owned both the AspX and DBX and found them to be lacking. There was some grinding involved, but surpassing that is the nerdish joy of researching engineers, pinpointing the right high metal content world, returning to Dav's Hope and visiting material traders - all in the name of getting the recipe for your ship just right.

Naturally it isn't fun ferrying 12 tonnes of Lavian Brandy at a time to Didi Vatermann for example, but perhaps the annoying hoop one has to jump through in order to unlock certain engineers is a reminder that not everything sci-fi is slick and futuristic. The business of tuning ships is, after all, human.
 
I don't have a particular problem with engineering. Of course there is tedium, but in the end you are afforded the means to tune the ship you want in the direction that you want to take it into.

Over the past two weeks I have tuned my Cobra MkIII to be a superior exploration ship, having owned both the AspX and DBX and found them to be lacking. There was some grinding involved, but surpassing that is the nerdish joy of researching engineers, pinpointing the right high metal content world, returning to Dav's Hope and visiting material traders - all in the name of getting the recipe for your ship just right.

Naturally it isn't fun ferrying 12 tonnes of Lavian Brandy at a time to Didi Vatermann for example, but perhaps the annoying hoop one has to jump through in order to unlock certain engineers is a reminder that not everything sci-fi is slick and futuristic. The business of tuning ships is, after all, human.
The worst bit for me was unlocking some of the Engineers. So much so I haven't unlocked them all.
 
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