Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Anuranium]

To answer OP:
I hate engineering ships. It is time consuming, tedious, and boring. I hate the whole implementation of it, how they introduced a "new" currency to balance out the inflation of credits that came from various money schemes.
Engineering has to me been a "necessary" evil to improve and customize my ships to my liking.

 

[Bill Clement]

Not just that, but why does the game have to value their time. Isn't it up to them to prioritise?

S

The game doesn't have to- it is what it is, people will like it or not, depending on their preferences. The publisher though, well that's another matter, one that you should be concerned about, because ED is an on line only title.

If a player feels they're wasting their time, they will prioritise. They'll play less or quit. That means they're less likely to buy in game goodies or fork out for future content. If enough players check out, the game will no longer be viable and the publisher will shut down the servers.

Othering people you disagree with is natural, but it's usually counter productive. It's usually more beneficial to try and see the bigger picture and consider how the other's concerns might end up impacting yours.

Or in old fashioned terms, try walking a mile in the other guy's shoes. It's amazing how much your perspective shifts...

Just to have some kind of foundation here, just how limited is your time? 15 minutes a day? Half an hour ever other day?

I see far too many people make statements like this, few ever specify how little time they actually have.

I think back many decades, when one of my favorite board/table top games to play was Axis and Allies. In the time I had then, this usually meant one person setting up the game during the week, then getting together a couple of hours over the course of three or four weekends to actually play.

Elite reminds me of this, as it really is meant for long-term play, unlike far too many other games that blow out the entirety of their content in an hour, and usually lack any replay value.

Wall of text coming up... I'll try and pre-empt your likely responses, it'll save you a lot of time later on. Like 66 pages of it!

Spoiler: moan, moan, moan...

When I started engineering at the end of last year, it was around three to six hours a week. That's a huge commitment for me, virtually all of my leisure time.

Since Beta, that's been time well spent. Elite is a fantastic game, that can be played to match my mood. Exciting rescues inside burning stations, fascinating exploration of alien structures or shipwrecks, giggly arcade goodness, blowing up space rocks or gunning down pirates and a whole bunch besides. It's great entertainment.

But power creep has overtaken my fleet. My fast ships aren't, my fighters are firing blanks, my well defended freighters have been refitted with tinfoil hulls!

I decided to try a little engineering to even things up a bit.

I assumed (I know, first mistake ) that two or three years of casual material gathering would have given me more than enough materials to build a base line ship, with all modules fully engineered.

I ran out of mats long before I got half way through. In fact, the ship still isn't fully engineered.

A month or so in I got so demoralised I quit playing. This was shocking to me, I've waited my whole adult life for Elite to be brought up to date, I've built my rig around the game and put an obscene amount of money and time into both.

So I bit the bullet, resolved to 'git gud' and spent three solid months grinding. I've got all the engineers unlocked apart from the Colonia ones, I have huge stockpiles of materials and I can barely see my galmap for markers. I know a ridiculous amount about where and how to gather mats, although much of it's now obsolete thanks to new patches moving the goalposts.

And it's still not enough!

Every time I think I've got it cracked a new material jumps into the magic potion required for the next upgrade. It's guaranteed to be one I don't have a clue how to gather and I'm left at the same old conundrum- do I spend the rest of the night trawling through internet posts and threads to find out how to find powered unicorn dung this patch, or do I trade in similar materials at a six to one loss? On to INARA, or EDDB or whatever your preferred out of game asset finding site is, off to a trader to get fleeced, or to some utterly bone activity that may or may not deliver rainbow coloured poo. Hours later, discover I'm one unit short of the upgrade, or that I've spunked the supply of the next magic ingredient I need for the next upgrade trading for the last one.

It's utterly soul destroying!

Yes, there are quicker ways to do it. Believe me, I've watched hours of footage of youtube b-listers making it look like a stroll in the park! But that doesn't speed up the process for me. Nor do helpful comments about how there's always some additional requirement I needed to make the material spawn, or how they're drowning in it, I must be doing something wrong!

Failing to make any progress is bad enough, but being openly mocked for my ignorance/lack of perseverance/selfishness/impatience or any of a dozen other failings just makes the whole situation worse.

I reached my limit months ago. I decided to do without engineering on my favourite ships. But they're no longer the same. My almost-but-not-quite-fully engineered Python is now the fastest, most agile, heaviest armed, thickest armoured, best shielded ship I own. It makes my Cobras feel slow and my Eagle clumsy. It makes my fighters and warships feel limp. I can melt battleships in it- but I'm a sitting duck in almost everything else I own.

I'm just sick of it, Indigo. The game's balance is utterly broken. 'A' rated ships should be really good at what they do, not feel like a broken down version of the engineered equivalent. Giving the AI all the magic toys in the box just adds insult to injury. It's not every AI that gets the full suite of engineering mods, but vanilla ships, particularly the small, formerly fast and agile ones I prefer, just melt when they do face off against an engineered opponent. And you're a 'leet pilot too, you know how often the cheaty gits rock up! I'm sick of running away, I'm sick of running out of ammo while the other guy's shields are still up, I'm sick of jumping through hoops to try and track down umpteen units of unobtanium just to get my drives back to where they were last year.

So I'm out. I want to get back into it, I really do. Elite was, hell is, a huge part of my life. But right now I've had enough. I'd rather do something fun for a while, or failing that, if I'm going to be working at something, I'll just take the overtime. At least I'll get paid...

 

[Jack Schitt]

I don't agree 100% with every point you make, Bill, but you make them well and I genuinely sympathise with anyone whose frustration pushes them to abandoning the game. To me it reads as though you have a similar amount of time, money and emotion invested in the Elite series as I do, and I genuinely fear the day that something pushes me over that threshold. It hasn't happened yet, but believe me there have been days...

I can only imagine what it would be like to feel so disillusioned as to abandon this incredible fictional world that has been with me in one form or another for over three decades. I think it would feel like a bereavement. Maybe I could console myself with the knowledge that ED isn't really the game I thought I was backing in 2012, or even the one I was watching develop in 2013/14. But it is still Elite, the only current version of Elite, and I would miss it despite its shortcomings.

All I can offer you is this: there is very little in ED that demands to be done right now. Unless it's a CG, Initiative, PP, PVP meta build or something else with artificial immediacy, you are pretty much free to set your own pace. When it comes to Engineering, it doesn't matter if you blitz through a full G5 mod programme in a bleary-eyed weekend, or only get half a ship's systems to G3 over six months. The general content of the game will wait until you're ready. For various IRL reasons I spent a good couple of months hardly playing at all, just keeping an eye on the forums for the latest goings on. When I came back, things hadn't changed too much. Casual play is not a sin, and the game will largely accommodate it even if the attitudes of some other players seem not to.

On the other hand if you're genuinely sick of "running away" (it's a perfectly valid tactic, if irritating) and already seeing "the grind" as an analogue for actual work, perhaps the damage is irreversible. A pity if so. I hate to see Elite lose anyone, and I'm not ashamed to admit that part of that is a selfish fear that the next one it loses could be me.

 

[WinterKing2112]

The game doesn't have to- it is what it is, people will like it or not, depending on their preferences. The publisher though, well that's another matter, one that you should be concerned about, because ED is an on line only title.

If a player feels they're wasting their time, they will prioritise. They'll play less or quit. That means they're less likely to buy in game goodies or fork out for future content. If enough players check out, the game will no longer be viable and the publisher will shut down the servers.

Othering people you disagree with is natural, but it's usually counter productive. It's usually more beneficial to try and see the bigger picture and consider how the other's concerns might end up impacting yours.

Or in old fashioned terms, try walking a mile in the other guy's shoes. It's amazing how much your perspective shifts...



Wall of text coming up... I'll try and pre-empt your likely responses, it'll save you a lot of time later on. Like 66 pages of it!

Spoiler: moan, moan, moan...

When I started engineering at the end of last year, it was around three to six hours a week. That's a huge commitment for me, virtually all of my leisure time.

Since Beta, that's been time well spent. Elite is a fantastic game, that can be played to match my mood. Exciting rescues inside burning stations, fascinating exploration of alien structures or shipwrecks, giggly arcade goodness, blowing up space rocks or gunning down pirates and a whole bunch besides. It's great entertainment.

But power creep has overtaken my fleet. My fast ships aren't, my fighters are firing blanks, my well defended freighters have been refitted with tinfoil hulls!

I decided to try a little engineering to even things up a bit.

I assumed (I know, first mistake ) that two or three years of casual material gathering would have given me more than enough materials to build a base line ship, with all modules fully engineered.

I ran out of mats long before I got half way through. In fact, the ship still isn't fully engineered.

A month or so in I got so demoralised I quit playing. This was shocking to me, I've waited my whole adult life for Elite to be brought up to date, I've built my rig around the game and put an obscene amount of money and time into both.

So I bit the bullet, resolved to 'git gud' and spent three solid months grinding. I've got all the engineers unlocked apart from the Colonia ones, I have huge stockpiles of materials and I can barely see my galmap for markers. I know a ridiculous amount about where and how to gather mats, although much of it's now obsolete thanks to new patches moving the goalposts.

And it's still not enough!

Every time I think I've got it cracked a new material jumps into the magic potion required for the next upgrade. It's guaranteed to be one I don't have a clue how to gather and I'm left at the same old conundrum- do I spend the rest of the night trawling through internet posts and threads to find out how to find powered unicorn dung this patch, or do I trade in similar materials at a six to one loss? On to INARA, or EDDB or whatever your preferred out of game asset finding site is, off to a trader to get fleeced, or to some utterly bone activity that may or may not deliver rainbow coloured poo. Hours later, discover I'm one unit short of the upgrade, or that I've spunked the supply of the next magic ingredient I need for the next upgrade trading for the last one.

It's utterly soul destroying!

Yes, there are quicker ways to do it. Believe me, I've watched hours of footage of youtube b-listers making it look like a stroll in the park! But that doesn't speed up the process for me. Nor do helpful comments about how there's always some additional requirement I needed to make the material spawn, or how they're drowning in it, I must be doing something wrong!

Failing to make any progress is bad enough, but being openly mocked for my ignorance/lack of perseverance/selfishness/impatience or any of a dozen other failings just makes the whole situation worse.

I reached my limit months ago. I decided to do without engineering on my favourite ships. But they're no longer the same. My almost-but-not-quite-fully engineered Python is now the fastest, most agile, heaviest armed, thickest armoured, best shielded ship I own. It makes my Cobras feel slow and my Eagle clumsy. It makes my fighters and warships feel limp. I can melt battleships in it- but I'm a sitting duck in almost everything else I own.

I'm just sick of it, Indigo. The game's balance is utterly broken. 'A' rated ships should be really good at what they do, not feel like a broken down version of the engineered equivalent. Giving the AI all the magic toys in the box just adds insult to injury. It's not every AI that gets the full suite of engineering mods, but vanilla ships, particularly the small, formerly fast and agile ones I prefer, just melt when they do face off against an engineered opponent. And you're a 'leet pilot too, you know how often the cheaty gits rock up! I'm sick of running away, I'm sick of running out of ammo while the other guy's shields are still up, I'm sick of jumping through hoops to try and track down umpteen units of unobtanium just to get my drives back to where they were last year.

So I'm out. I want to get back into it, I really do. Elite was, hell is, a huge part of my life. But right now I've had enough. I'd rather do something fun for a while, or failing that, if I'm going to be working at something, I'll just take the overtime. At least I'll get paid...

Just read your full post. I think it is interesting that you are finding the whole engineering thing so incredibly hard. I sorta wonder if part of it may just be that you are bored of ED? Another thread which is now running is a goodbye thread from someone who was previously complaining a lot about bugs in the game. He's now realised it's not just the bugs, he's been playing for 4 years and he's just bored of the game. The fact that this game can keep people playing for 4 years is a serious achievement.! Most games only keep me interested for a few months, then I buy another game....

Anyhoo, I'm engineering my third ship (an FDL) now, and I have enough mats to get everything from G2 - G5, which is more than enough to deal with pirates. Some poor npc decided to interdict me in Deciat last night, the engineered multicannons (only G2 - G3 + experimentals) vaporized him in about 2 seconds!

When I run outta mats I will use my explorer/miner to go out of the bubble and look at some new systems. I will land on some planets and have a look around., picking up anything that takes my fancy. On the way back I'll do a bit of mining, make another 40 mill. Then do some missions in my mission runner, look at the USS's on the way, check out the interesting ones, gather some more mats. Then do a bit of bounty hunting, gather some more mats. So I'm not doing anything I wouldn't already be doing, so the mats are just a wee bonus. Then I can take those mats to an engineer and make another module or weapon a bit better. It's totally win/win for me.

I'm in no hurry, I don't have to G5 everything by next Tuesday, I'm not @ work (thank God!!). It will take how long it will take, the longer the better really 'cos I love playing ED and just by doing my ordinary day to day ED things I get little rewards of mats as I go. So don't be in a hurry, take your time, just play the game and pick stuff up as you go. You will get there, and there's no rush. And if you don't have much engineering on a particular ship, just run, like the "Git Gud @ Trading" video showed us! I did that the first 6 months until I got Horizons, some npc's were just too tough so I had to run, a lot. But now I have Horizons I can beef up my ships and I no longer have to run, which is empowering, after 6 months of having to run like a scolded dog! As your fleet slowly gets engineered, you will have to run less and less. Progress! In the meantime, maybe just use your most engineered ships?

But if this is not going to work for you, I guess you just have to accept it. Be grateful you had 4 years of great fun playing ED, try not to dwell on he negatives (not easy, I know, I personally am very good at dwelling on negative experiences!), and enjoy other games. As you previously stated, you're having a hoot playing them, which is great.

And FYI, it's nice to have an adult discussion on this forum. The "(insert topic) sucks and it's boring" posts tend to trigger me. A well written and thought out post, while I may not agree with it, does not trigger me! Quite the opposite in fact!

 

[Six6VI]

They did a bit when abrasion lasers creating multiple chunks was patched out.

Understandable bug patch for unintended behaviour. I can dig the logic on nerfing that one.

 

[dxm55]

They did a bit when abrasion lasers creating multiple chunks was patched out.

Wasted opportunity.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I don't agree 100% with every point you make, Bill, but you make them well and I genuinely sympathise with anyone whose frustration pushes them to abandoning the game. To me it reads as though you have a similar amount of time, money and emotion invested in the Elite series as I do, and I genuinely fear the day that something pushes me over that threshold. It hasn't happened yet, but believe me there have been days...

I can only imagine what it would be like to feel so disillusioned as to abandon this incredible fictional world that has been with me in one form or another for over three decades. I think it would feel like a bereavement. Maybe I could console myself with the knowledge that ED isn't really the game I thought I was backing in 2012, or even the one I was watching develop in 2013/14. But it is still Elite, the only current version of Elite, and I would miss it despite its shortcomings.

All I can offer you is this: there is very little in ED that demands to be done right now. Unless it's a CG, Initiative, PP, PVP meta build or something else with artificial immediacy, you are pretty much free to set your own pace. When it comes to Engineering, it doesn't matter if you blitz through a full G5 mod programme in a bleary-eyed weekend, or only get half a ship's systems to G3 over six months. The general content of the game will wait until you're ready. For various IRL reasons I spent a good couple of months hardly playing at all, just keeping an eye on the forums for the latest goings on. When I came back, things hadn't changed too much. Casual play is not a sin, and the game will largely accommodate it even if the attitudes of some other players seem not to.

On the other hand if you're genuinely sick of "running away" (it's a perfectly valid tactic, if irritating) and already seeing "the grind" as an analogue for actual work, perhaps the damage is irreversible. A pity if so. I hate to see Elite lose anyone, and I'm not ashamed to admit that part of that is a selfish fear that the next one it loses could be me.

I think I have the same experience as OP. What people don't understand - for whatever reason - is, that we run into enemies that take longer to take down, we feel nerfed by the shift of engineering introduced to the environment and have a general reception that we dont get anywhere reasonably trying to play with engineers. I ran into several AI that were just inconceivably buff with HP. There is no reason to pit vanilla players against such stuff, because they should know that it takes considerably longer to go with peashooters vs engineered stuff. They should know but still spawn them because it's the cheap way.
The considerate way would be to have the power creep set in dedicated instances where players "choose" to go - instead of rolling the dice whether to encounter one.
The considerate way would also be to not lock existing content behind a grindwall, like they do with combat zones. I fought in CZ ALL the time because I'd play the BGS. Now I have to bloody engineer to do just that. That makes no sense. I don't pay a second time for content I already got - and time is the most precious currence I have to spend right now.
Again - I dont mind if it all was really optional - but it isnt. Many just embraced it as the new norm and take it all for granted after they ground their rear off for it.

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

I think it is interesting that you are finding the whole engineering thing so incredibly hard.

You keep either misreading or misinterpreting what was said, material gathering is not hard but tedious and hard to stay engaged in. No one is saying that if you like the way it is now that you're wrong. I don't want my style of gaming to impose on yours, but there's nothing wrong in proposing more methods for certain activities or necessities.

What would be so wrong if we had specific missions for materials, I know there's certain hauling/passenger missions that give materials, that's great.
Take this into consideration though, alongside the current way of gathering materials we also have say material storage (like the npc stations scattered all around for faction defend/attack missions) but holds materials. You drop into the instance as a wing and say you have to hack one of the 5 storage units marked with security levels 1-5. Hacking a storage unit locks down the instance for that current wing (no additional players can join on the instance) and starts the wave of enemies, difficulty and reward is dictated by the hacked security level (1-5). There could also be certain mechanics involved such as station implementing anti hack systems so you have to hack additional points during waves, or hack a radio tower in order to prevent additional distress calls. You know how some of those stations have openings where you can go through with SLF, there could be something of importance to destroy within the station and requires a small ship to crawl in there and destroy it. At the end of the mission the group gets rewarded with materials, grade of materials depends on the "security level" that was selected in the beginning of the event.

There's people who enjoy racing ships and there's no current activity for it at all, racing against time through those space station openings to get rewarded with credits or higher grade mats wouldn't be the end of the world.

I don't think anyone here is arguing to make engineers an effortless "one click done" thing, that would be way too cheap, but having more options than just looking for signal sources and driving on desolate planets is not a bad thing, imo.

 

[Six6VI]

Legs + Dungeon raids + bosses that drop a few high level mats each...

Done to death everywhere except in ED. Oh, plus an auction house!

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

Well that's kind of the point I was making earlier, engineering being end game like content without an appropriate mission for it.
Having leg missions would be counter productive for the game, as you said, games with legs are everywhere and imo it's much easier to do than in space.
Being on foot you can guide a player through the mission with walls, gates, etc. In space you have to be creative.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well that's kind of the point I was making earlier, engineering being end game like content without an appropriate mission for it.
Having leg missions would be counter productive for the game, as you said, games with legs are everywhere and imo it's much easier to do than in space.
Being on foot you can guide a player through the mission with walls, gates, etc. In space you have to be creative.

I don't see engineering as end game content at all. ED is not that kind of game, there is no end game. Engineers is just another facet of the game that you can dabble in when you want to. I've been playing since original beta and still don't have all the engineers opened. People seem to be so used to the "progression" type games that they think its in ED as well. It isn't. ED is a game of choices. Staying in a Sidewinder for your entire game time is perfectly valid and you can still do everything that is to offer too, just at a smaller scale.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Legs + Dungeon raids + bosses that drop a few high level mats each...

Done to death everywhere except in ED. Oh, plus an auction house!

I'm currently playing Vermintide 2. Just another example how to make "grinding" fun:
1) Gameplay is it's own reward. Looking at something comparably "good" in ED - I'd say look at planetary stuff.
2) Consistency - there is a friggen lootbox at the end. But you are guaranteed to get one. Can influence the drop qualities and the stuff that drops from it still improves your progress - might just be a tad slower with incomplete runs.
3) You progress on the way. You dont need to collect stuff to get a chance to be rewarded. Even if you suck you'll progress somehow.
4) You can freely respec on your way. Perks arent fixed and you can freely choose from 3 perks that get unlocked every 5 levels.

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

I don't see engineering as end game content at all.

That's fine if you don't, it doesn't make it true though. It's a time gated power reward, without which you can't really participate in the current ongoing lore (thargoids).

People seem to be so used to the "progression" type games that they think its in ED as well. It isn't.

If it weren't than there wouldn't be such a big difference between engineered and un-engineered parts. When you engineered a ship, you progressed, things became easier for you and new content is available (ships with longer range can go to places they couldn't before due to distance limitations, better weapons can destroy opponents they couldn't before, etc.). You can stay a low level in an mmo and still do a lot of activities, it's just not productive or fun.

Staying in a Sidewinder for your entire game time is perfectly valid and you can still do everything that is to offer too, just at a smaller scale.

No you can't, as mentioned above, good luck with thargoids, the current hot topic on the news. You can't explore as much places as you could otherwise. You can't really defend yourself in open.

 

[Six6VI]

Well that's kind of the point I was making earlier, engineering being end game like content without an appropriate mission for it.
Having leg missions would be counter productive for the game, as you said, games with legs are everywhere and imo it's much easier to do than in space.
Being on foot you can guide a player through the mission with walls, gates, etc. In space you have to be creative.

I'd agree with Max here, engineering isn't end-game, it's very much a take it or leave it thing but having seen the gob-smacking difference between an A-Rated Vulture and what G5 mods can do to it (would you rather drink an aged single malt, or goat urine?) there's a definite reason to grind the unlocks.

Space is big enough that one or more installations could be the focal point for a raid type sequential mission run if a waypointing system was added to show you where to go next in the absence of walls you can't climb and platforms you can't fall off so gating a single "correct path" wouldn't be too difficult.

Encouraging a wing of ships that satisfies the typical healer + tank + damage dealer meta when there are no clear cut ship classes might be a lot more difficult to design for and then how do you provide a mechanism for those in SOLO / PG to get matched up with an appropriately balanced team, etc, etc...

And yet the game could still benefit from a dedicated team type activity with a relatively finite reward at the end if you don't fail to complete the run. It's a bit cliche but something like the Episode 4 death star exhaust port run with one torpedo boat, a leading turret killer and a couple of defense ships could work.

But, then the engineering issue comes up again because of the massive power gap.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That's fine if you don't, it doesn't make it true though. It's a time gated power reward, without which you can't really participate in the current ongoing lore (thargoids).

And thargoids are just a very small part of the game which are purly optional and are not needed to play against to get to the next part of the game. If you CHOOSE to partake in the destruction of thargoids, then you will need a bigger ship nad therefore choose to get one.

If it weren't than there wouldn't be such a big difference between engineered and un-engineered parts. When you engineered a ship, you progressed, things became easier for you and new content is available (ships with longer range can go to places they couldn't before due to distance limitations, better weapons can destroy opponents they couldn't before, etc.). You can stay a low level in an mmo and still do a lot of activities, it's just not productive or fun.

Progression is what you make it in ED. In a traditional progression based game such as LOTRO, you had to level up to survive the next area of the map. In ED you don't need to do that. Every part of the map is accessible to you no matter what ship you are in and survivable.

Yes there are some very small parts of the game that will be too tough for a small sidewinder, but they are tiny parts of the game. It is nothing like a full on progression type MMO like LOTRO. Progression in ED is a choice. Progression in LOTRO/WoW/Rift/ESO etc is required unless you only want to stay in the starter area, which is doubtful.

No you can't, as mentioned above, good luck with thargoids, the current hot topic on the news. You can't explore as much places as you could otherwise. You can't really defend yourself in open.

Not thargoids, but other combat is perfectly doable. You can explore perfectly fine in a sidewinder too.

Its the different between needing and wanting. Traditional MMOs needs you to progress to get to the next part. In ED progressing up in ships is done because you want to. Nothing pushes you along that requires you to do that. We do it because we want to, because the ship looks cool, because it makes us more money, because it gives me more fire power, but those are all choices, not requirements unlike traditional MMOs.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Yes there are some very small parts of the game that will be too tough for a small sidewinder

Even that is debatable. It's possible to defeat a Thargoid interceptor in a Sidey. Very difficult, but possible. And even if you don't have the skills to pull that off, just enter an AX CZ or NHSS in a small stock ship. It might arguably be even more exciting than rolling up in a G5'd battleship.

 

[WinterKing2112]

You keep either misreading or misinterpreting what was said, material gathering is not hard but tedious and hard to stay engaged in. No one is saying that if you like the way it is now that you're wrong. I don't want my style of gaming to impose on yours, but there's nothing wrong in proposing more methods for certain activities or necessities.

What would be so wrong if we had specific missions for materials, I know there's certain hauling/passenger missions that give materials, that's great.
Take this into consideration though, alongside the current way of gathering materials we also have say material storage (like the npc stations scattered all around for faction defend/attack missions) but holds materials. You drop into the instance as a wing and say you have to hack one of the 5 storage units marked with security levels 1-5. Hacking a storage unit locks down the instance for that current wing (no additional players can join on the instance) and starts the wave of enemies, difficulty and reward is dictated by the hacked security level (1-5). There could also be certain mechanics involved such as station implementing anti hack systems so you have to hack additional points during waves, or hack a radio tower in order to prevent additional distress calls. You know how some of those stations have openings where you can go through with SLF, there could be something of importance to destroy within the station and requires a small ship to crawl in there and destroy it. At the end of the mission the group gets rewarded with materials, grade of materials depends on the "security level" that was selected in the beginning of the event.

There's people who enjoy racing ships and there's no current activity for it at all, racing against time through those space station openings to get rewarded with credits or higher grade mats wouldn't be the end of the world.

I don't think anyone here is arguing to make engineers an effortless "one click done" thing, that would be way too cheap, but having more options than just looking for signal sources and driving on desolate planets is not a bad thing,

I think something along the lines of what you proposed would be good for those who don't enjoy picking up mats on planets etc. Something challenging but engaging. Something involving pew pew even! I suspect Frontier are looking into that, along with a few other things.....

 

[Dr EviI]

Engineers made the game finally interesting for me. Before I found out how useful engineerd modules are I was just farming money at the nav signals and that was boring and frustrating. With engineers I finally began to discover the game, land on planets, scan warp signatures, mine asteroids and salvage wreckages.
Engineers are what makes Elite interesting to me.

So, yes, I enjoy them a lot! Without I wouldnt play Elite.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Engineers made the game finally interesting for me. Before I found out how useful engineerd modules are I was just farming money at the nav signals and that was boring and frustrating. With engineers I finally began to discover the game, land on planets, scan warp signatures, mine asteroids and salvage wreckages.
Engineers are what makes Elite interesting to me.

So, yes, I enjoy them a lot! Without I wouldnt play Elite.

Yeah, basically they give you more reasons to spend time in the galaxy. I like them as well, although the only thing I dislike is having to travel to them (pinning recipes addresses that to some extent, but also stifles experimentation).

Which is why I moved to Colonia where 3 engineers cover everything and within a couple of jumps from each other Wish they'd do something similar in the bubble.

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

And thargoids are just a very small part of the game which are purly optional and are not needed to play against to get to the next part of the game.

This does not disprove my point though. Is it not the current lore? Is engineering not a time gated power reward?
When a system close to my home system is attacked, I go into my ax ship and go to fight, it's the current thing on the news, it's games lore. I used that system for various resources and bases were being destroyed. Sure I can move away from there and mark the system with an "x" and just find another, but if that's the solution than that's one lousy gameplay mechanic. Yes you can fight uphill battles indefinitely without engineers, but I can't imagine it being fun or effective.

I agree that the games progression is what you make it to be, it's not a strict path, like the example above. For me that was a mission that had to be done, it wasn't set by fdev but it was a mission. I wouldn't enjoy it or even think of it if I haven't had an engineered ship for it already.

Basically what you're saying is that it's not a problem if I play the game the way you want me to play it, if I follow your progression path.