Reduce the grind

[House0fDerp]

The requirement are immaterial, what you choose to do is.

Quite the opposite, the requirements are the material when what you're criticizing are the requirements.

If you choose to grind for upgrades you don't need. That is your choice.

Sure, and it should be a fully valid and well designed choice, period. Optional or not, none of that excuses the issues with it.

Yeah... and I think that's the part where people thing Elite misses out.
Thargoids - optional
BGS - optional
Engineers - optional
Exploring - optional
Combat - optional
Bigger ship - optional
The only thing you HAVE to do is dock and undock... and wait!

More or less. Everything is optional, everything is able to be scrutinized as well. Those things are not and never were mutually exclusive. People should be able to choose content and not be punished for it; yes it's optional, and people want good options.

...you don't need...

How and why are we even talking about need in a videogame to begin with?

 

[Garbarrage]

Yeah... and I think that's the part where people thing Elite misses out.
Thargoids - optional
BGS - optional
Engineers - optional
Exploring - optional
Combat - optional
Bigger ship - optional
The only thing you HAVE to do is dock and undock... and wait!

Thargoids - involves repetitive circuits of Guardian sites to build a ship capable of participation. There's really no need for the repetition here. Once around each site would be more than enough.

BGS - involves so much repetitive gameplay, that it's probably better to get a large(ish) group to help you. Is system flipping still possible solo? I've been out of the game for a very long time.

Engineers - has gotten better through material traders, but still seems to take me an excessively long time to get top tier upgrades.

Exploring - grindy to a lot of players, but has typically been the one activity that has been done for it's own sake. Bored the bejeesus out of me though. Hopefully, atmospheric landings will help. FSS does not help matters though.

Combat - requires Engineering if your doing anything other than combat for gits and shiggles. Add a purpose, and your ship needs to be pretty efficient at getting the job done. i.e. conflict zones etc.

Bigger ship - credits are easy, but add Engineering into the mix and we're back to grind again.

FD seem to use repetition as a means of squeezing every piece of content for all it's worth. I'd much prefer to spend a little time on building my ships and a lot of time involved in the workings of the galaxy. Doing BGS stuff, getting involved in conflicts, fighting or competing for territory, contributing to a larger shared goal, or completing meaningful personal goals. I'd like to be able to swap my ship for something else when I get bored of it, without having to first consider how many weeks it will take to get my new ship up to the same spec as my previous one.

It was a bit like this pre-engineers, but it has gradually gotten worse since then

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

No. I just completely disagree with you about everything you are saying.

Yeah that's how it goes when you enter a conversation with a preconcieved notion.
The status quo suits you so why change?
That's not how positive change happens.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Its a grind in regard to engineering in ED, its not a matter of semantics. In the early days before engineering, i could get stuck into PvP, enjoy the thrill & adrenaline of the hunt & being hunted by other players. The only 'time wall' was credits & that was it. Since rebuys were costly & crime/punishment inflicted financial hurt. Now engineering as been included as a massive 'time wall', that acts as a barrier to the parts of the game i enjoy, i now have to 'grind' mind numbingly for items to do what i use to do & its not like these items scale with the ship class? e.g Corvettes requiring 10x the amount of items to engineer its modules compared to a Sidewinder. There no rhyme or reason for the grind involved in engineering other than to thwart that aspect of the game i'm interested in. In no other career of the game (Mining, Exploring, Trading) is there a stonewall grind by engineering that blocks you from doing these careers/game roles sufficiently. People who played Day Z initially did so for the adrenaline rush, the grind was a side show while in ED its the centerpiece of the flagship.

The grind of engineering in actuality seems to be a mechanic designed to stop 'weekend warriors', casual players & as resulted in fostering the same attitude comparable to zealotry i see here & sometime wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg in regard to whom drives the notion that grind is good? the Guardians of Grind or FD? I remember folks in the early days that would crush all opinions/suggestions deemed to sound anything like EVE.

I mean i'm not sure why people would not want the level of grind to be reduced in engineering, or even allow for faster progression of it in Open, it seems to me, that those defending the grind do so to protect their own 'time investment' or why else would they be so bothered? or use the excuse that "engineering would become trivial" with one hand & yet defend the grind with the other if not a form of protecting their own time investment which to me seems selfish to a potential whole wave of new players that could get stuck into this game.

Engineering gives all your modules and weapons a massive boost. Picking up some mats while I'm exploring, bounty hunting or checking out the surface of a new planet I have discovered, or a USS, seems like a pretty small price to pay for the huge improvements I am going to get from the engineer. But I enjoy bounty hunting, exploring, driving round on planets and blasting rocks, running missions and trading goods, so collecting mats is easy for me, I just pick mats up while I'm playing.

So I'm gonna suggest something radical here, hopefully this won't produce too many howls of rage. Actually, I don't care if it does, I'm a punk/metalhead so I love chaos! So here goes nothing: If Frontier wants to to stop the moaning about people being forced to explore, check out USS's etc, I think it's time to introduce loot boxes, then people who only want to PvP and nothing else can get the mats they need. That would be a win for Frontier and a win for PvPers. And guys like me will still be fine 'cos we can get all the mats we need just by playing the game, ALL of the game, not just PvP.

 

[WR3ND]

Engineering gives all your modules and weapons a massive boost. Picking up some mats while I'm exploring, bounty hunting or checking out the surface of a new planet I have discovered, or a USS, seems like a pretty small price to pay for the huge improvements I am going to get from the engineer. But I enjoy bounty hunting, exploring, driving round on planets and blasting rocks, running missions and trading goods, so collecting mats is easy for me, I just pick mats up while I'm playing.

So I'm gonna suggest something radical here, hopefully this won't produce too many howls of rage. Actually, I don't care if it does, I'm a punk/metalhead so I love chaos! So here goes nothing: If Frontier wants to to stop the moaning about people being forced to explore, check out USS's etc, I think it's time to introduce loot boxes, then people who only want to PvP and nothing else can get the mats they need. That would be a win for Frontier and a win for PvPers. And guys like me will still be fine 'cos we can get all the mats we need just by playing the game, ALL of the game, not just PvP.

I miss this. Just saying. Thanks for reminding me a bit of why I might bother giving a damn in the first place. Your posts are a breath of fresh air. o7

That being said, loot boxes can suck it. Don't even give a damn about Arx. But, meh, "let them eat cake."

 

[Tikanderoga]

Thargoids - involves repetitive circuits of Guardian sites to build a ship capable of participation. There's really no need for the repetition here. Once around each site would be more than enough.

BGS - involves so much repetitive gameplay, that it's probably better to get a large(ish) group to help you. Is system flipping still possible solo? I've been out of the game for a very long time.

Engineers - has gotten better through material traders, but still seems to take me an excessively long time to get top tier upgrades.

Exploring - grindy to a lot of players, but has typically been the one activity that has been done for it's own sake. Bored the bejeesus out of me though. Hopefully, atmospheric landings will help. FSS does not help matters though.

Combat - requires Engineering if your doing anything other than combat for gits and shiggles. Add a purpose, and your ship needs to be pretty efficient at getting the job done. i.e. conflict zones etc.

Bigger ship - credits are easy, but add Engineering into the mix and we're back to grind again.

FD seem to use repetition as a means of squeezing every piece of content for all it's worth. I'd much prefer to spend a little time on building my ships and a lot of time involved in the workings of the galaxy. Doing BGS stuff, getting involved in conflicts, fighting or competing for territory, contributing to a larger shared goal, or completing meaningful personal goals. I'd like to be able to swap my ship for something else when I get bored of it, without having to first consider how many weeks it will take to get my new ship up to the same spec as my previous one.

It was a bit like this pre-engineers, but it has gradually gotten worse since then

Guardians - Yep, the grind was real pre nerf of mats. 8 blueprints for 1 module! logfest galore!

engineers - Yes, the mats traders to help a bit.

Exploring - radio button simulator, really.

Combat - You can do without, but much more fun when pimped... start grinding.

I think they really got their game loops wrong. When game loops turn into mindless repetivness, then it's a grind.
Maybe not loot boxes, but loot to drop in general, like a good module that you need to take to an engineer to have it pimped. And it would have certain base stats that would be better than the stock modules anyone can buy. As an idea. People mind "grinding" less, if there is a chance of a good reward. Something exciting to drop. When you just keep blowing up rocks and crystals, you know exactly what's going to drop.

 

[WinterKing2112]

The thing i find most funny about this comment is how it completely ignores one fact.

"In other words, they dont have enough fun now, and they invest their time playing hoping it pays off in the future. And that absolute is a completely insane way to spend your free time."

Especially this bit. If you play ED you quickly realise that the grind for mats is essentially a barrier to a lot of the more fun elements of the game. Foir example PvP. The fact Skippy has forgotton this is quite hilarious. The way he comments like grind to access certain parts of teh game make sit seem he's not engaged in certain parts of teh game. Of course i could be wrong. Which means he's ignoring those parts purposely to make a silly point of argument.

I ended up uninstalling ED after 2k+ hours precisely because the so calle dnon existant grind barring entry to fun elements is very off putting.

Take say... any arena shooter ever made.

Your bar to entry to take part in PVP is buying the game. Thats it.

In Elite your talking hours and hours just to unlcok engineers to START building a PvP ship. Theres no jumping in.
This would be fine if you didn't have to go through this monumental process per module for every ship inclduing travel time even AFTER organising your pinned blueprints to be as efficient as possible.

So I laugh when folk say there no grind in Elite. They simply arn't playing teh same game. Or simply don't understand teh game they are playing...

I don't grind. I play ED. I understand ED..... etc.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It makes me laugh threads like these. People talk about repetitive gameplay as if that is grind. That isn't grind. All games are repetitive.

So if repetitive mechanics equals grind, then every game ever created equals grind.

But that isn't grind and it never has been. Grind is a mental state, you feel grind. How you do that is to do the same thing generally that you don't like continually.

Someone said the BGS was grind, how. You do many different activities doing the BGS. That is the opposite of grind.

Unlocking guardian modules, sure you have to do one thing to unlock them, it only becomes a grind when you want to unlock them all in one go.

I have only unlocked one guardian module, that was months ago. When I get back to the bubble, I will unlock another. That is not grind.

You don't need guardian hybrid weapons to fight Thargoids when you can buy AX weapons off the shelf. Yes the guardian hybrid weapons are more effective, but if you choose to grind out to get them all in one go, that is your choice.

Look people, I have no issues with more varied gameplay and would welcome it, as the game could do with it. But to say that you are forced to grind, the game is just grind, you have to grind to do certain stuff is just not true, unless you want to do PvP, which again is the choice you make, the game is not set around PvP. The game is PvE where PvP can happen.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Quite the opposite, the requirements are the material when what you're criticizing are the requirements.

The criticism was grind. The requirements are not depending on how you go about it.

Sure, and it should be a fully valid and well designed choice, period. Optional or not, none of that excuses the issues with it.

I am not excusing the issues with it.

How and why are we even talking about need in a videogame to begin with?

You're one of the people complaining about grind when it isn't necessary to play the game. You tell me. Why do you grind when others do not?

 

[Tikanderoga]

It makes me laugh threads like these. People talk about repetitive gameplay as if that is grind. That isn't grind. All games are repetitive.

Yes, that is correct, every game has a game loop, which is repetitive. But there is a difference of boring, mindless repetitive game loop or interesting and engaging game loop. The former is what people perceive as grinding.

 

[Schmack]

Graphics + RNG + Sci Fi cliches = best game ever

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yes, that is correct, every game has a game loop, which is repetitive. But there is a difference of boring, mindless repetitive game loop or interesting and engaging game loop. The former is what people perceive as grinding.

And that is purely subjective my good man.

If you find the gameplay boring, mindless and so on, I wonder why you are playing the game. Again another choice.

 

[Saool]

Well this is new.




I've not played NMS so have no idea what it is like to play. But I do wonder what this 'grindless' gameplay will be like once you have it?

I imagine you will never do the same thing twice. I wonder how FDEV are going to do that?

Or it will be a series of 'I win buttons ' where everything will be super effortless and easy, and like void oples, and will go from Sidewinder to Anaconda in a day... Or Cutter. And lever 5 engineered everything with no effort. At which point we are right into 'nothing to do in elite'.

I wonder where this is coming from? Is it instant gratification games like Fortnight? (never played that either).

Have you ever played Lord of the Rings Online (or really any MMO). Every quest is basicly 'kill 10 chickens and I will give this magic sword (of which I have 10000 under my table)' and the game seem more about loot boxes then game. Repetitive game loops replaced with pay to win and instant gratification.

I'm not sure what a game without grind looks like. It might be great. It might also be completable in 20 mins with three lives.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Well this is new.




I've not played NNS so have no idea what it is like to play. But I do wonder what this 'grindless' gameplay will be like once you have it?

I imagine you will never do the same thing twice. I wonder how FDEV are going to do that?

Or it will be a series of 'I win buttons ' where everything will be super effortless and easy, and like void oples, and will go from Sidewinder to Anaconda in a day... Or Cutter. And lever 5 engineered everything with no effort. At which point we are right into 'nothing to do in elite'.

I wonder where this is coming from? Is it instant gratification games like Fortnight? (never played that either).

Have you ever played Lord of the Rings Online (or really any MMO). Every quest is basicly 'kill 10 chickens and I will give this magic sword (of which I have 10000 under my table)' and the game seem more about loot boxes then game. Repetitive game loops replaced with pay to win and instant gratification.

I'm not sure what a game without grind looks like. It might be great. It might also be completable in 20 mins with three lives.

People who say NMS fixed grind are just angry at FD. NMS added the requirement to power your base. This means you need to build generators and connect everything. After doing that you need to provide carbon to your generators and you need to replenish it. Or you can grind towards solar panels using other resources.

It's an open sandbox game. You do things and get a reward. You do it many times and get many rewards. You don't like doing it you do something else.

That isn't to say game design can't be discussed. Some elements in ED are asinine. That CG where you literally had to relog for guardian stuff was terrible, and a literal grind. But many times people here don't argue against grind and for more diverse, challenging gameplay but rather just for more and bigger rewards. One person even said a grind with a big reward is no longer a grind.

To them I say:"Ha!".

 

[AgentGB]

Engineering gives all your modules and weapons a massive boost. Picking up some mats while I'm exploring, bounty hunting or checking out the surface of a new planet I have discovered, or a USS, seems like a pretty small price to pay for the huge improvements I am going to get from the engineer. But I enjoy bounty hunting, exploring, driving round on planets and blasting rocks, running missions and trading goods, so collecting mats is easy for me, I just pick mats up while I'm playing.

So I'm gonna suggest something radical here, hopefully this won't produce too many howls of rage. Actually, I don't care if it does, I'm a punk/metalhead so I love chaos! So here goes nothing: If Frontier wants to to stop the moaning about people being forced to explore, check out USS's etc, I think it's time to introduce loot boxes, then people who only want to PvP and nothing else can get the mats they need. That would be a win for Frontier and a win for PvPers. And guys like me will still be fine 'cos we can get all the mats we need just by playing the game, ALL of the game, not just PvP.

That the whole point my dude, engineering does indeed give a massive boost, the difference is night & day. I also understand you play the game differently to me, i was playing the game to engage with the PP at a PvP level & for that i need my ship to be engineered, such is the new meta of the game now. Now, you seem to be "indifferent" to the grind, it neither bothers you or affects your playstyle, from which if FD did reduce the grind for Engineering, surely it still would not bother you & so there isn't much reason to stand in the way of having the grind reduced? Surely this would be a good thing if it allows new players & weekend warriors like myself & my friend to engage in a part of the game we purposely play for & what i use to do before Horizon? Before Horizon i was already interested in the BGS & pvp combat, i even started a thread that listed conflict zones for like minded people.

Now i'm indifferent to loot boxes, i generally don't tend to bother with them for most games but in the case of CS:GO i buy low & sell high. But overall such an idea is a whole new kettle of fish & would most likely dwarf the 'grind debate', which would quickly be viewed as 'pay to win'. You think i haven't already tested the ground on your idea as an alternative to the grind? The thing would not take flight & i'd imagine the Steam Reviews would fly of a cliff edge. Regardless if the fix to the grind is as easy as implementing loot boxes, surely it would be easier to just reduce the grind for engineering. Like i said, if everyone is like yourself & just merrily flying about taking it in its stride, surely it won't matter to you if engineering was fixed.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

People who say NMS fixed grind are just angry at FD. NMS added the requirement to power your base. This means you need to build generators and connect everything. After doing that you need to provide carbon to your generators and you need to replenish it. Or you can grind towards solar panels using other resources.

As an explorer, I don't need to build Las Vegas on each planet I land. But I can build a confortable shelter on any planet I decide to spend some time..
The moment I decide to settle down and colonize a planet this shouldn't be as fast as building a tent of course. Everyday players are discovering new ways of installing and managing big wire looms. It turns out that if you build the proper base modules you don't need to install cables inside your base becuase the module itself can redistribute the energy. There's a learning curve to follow of course.

Another example: yesterday playing NMS (in regular mode) I found myself involved in a pirates attack to a Carrier. I helped the carrier and killed the pirates with my starter ship (I still have basic weapons and basic shields). After the combat I was invited by the captain of the carrier and when I docked and talked to him on the bridge he offered me his carrier for free. It's a basic/starter model of course but I spent 0 (zero) money to get it. Now this is probably an excess, but just for saying...

 

[CMDR Jowley]

I have to say, I do find a lot of mats just playing. The only time I have to "grind"is g5 mats. They should spawn more. I also think the SC could be a little quicker BUT I know all the tricks now so it isn't to bad.

I wouldn't complain if fdev decided to give more mats per pick up or buff everything just because. Honestly all I want is more mat options in missions and more missions types.

The mission boards are all the same these days... the hole bubble is the same, same states and so on since 3.3 the bgs needs shaking up to be able to spawn more gameplay loops.

 

[Florenus]

Another example: yesterday playing NMS (in regular mode) I found myself involved in a pirates attack to a Carrier. I helped the carrier and killed the pirates with my starter ship (I still have basic weapons and basic shields). After the combat I was invited by the captain of the carrier and when I docked and talked to him on the bridge he offered me his carrier for free. It's a basic/starter model of course but I spent 0 (zero) money to get it. Now this is probably an excess, but just for saying...

You were still playing introductionary scenario. In NMS this freighter you get for free is part of your starting gear.

 

[Florenus]

I have to say, I do find a lot of mats just playing. The only time I have to "grind"is g5 mats. They should spawn more. I also think the SC could be a little quicker BUT I know all the tricks now so it isn't to bad.

I wouldn't complain if fdev decided to give more mats per pick up or buff everything just because. Honestly all I want is more mat options in missions and more missions types.

Plenty of G5 mats (biotech conductors and exqusite focus cristals) can be earned as mission rewards and traded later. You really don't need to even bother with searching for them.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

You were still playing introductionary scenario. In NMS this freighter you get for free is part of your starting gear.

It's actually an optional content that I got for free.