Reduce the grind

[House0fDerp]

Yes it is.

No, it isn't, and you're contradicting yourself by saying it is. If the only reason to grind is needing things, and people are grinding, they must inherently need those things and you're wrong in saying they're optional. Conversely, if they're optional and people are still grinding for them then there must be reasons to grind things without needing them. That or the whole train of thought you constructed is based on faulty thinking disproven by the very existence of the conversation we're having.

Oh, I certainly consider other playstyles exist. But what I don't get is people choosing to play in a certain way and then complain about it. Seems a bit dumb to me.

That was already explained:

We can love trade while not being fond of combat so having relevant mods hidden behind combat engineers and their upgrades might be tedious. Or liking combat but hating the dock>jump>dock loop of trade making that seem tedious blocking some upgrades. Or maybe you're not fond of your spaceship game telling you some options are locked behind getting out of your ship in a go kart. Whatever.

But hey, there's stuff you want to play with on the other end of that for your space ship in a game about space ships which makes you want to have it done even if you don't want to do it.

 

[Brrokk]

...
Oh, I certainly consider other playstyles exist. But what I don't get is people choosing to play in a certain way and then complain about it. Seems a bit dumb to me.

"Do, or do not. There is no grind".
"Never his mind on Where He Was; What He Was Doing!"

 

[photomankc]

Well said. Okay, how about paying for mats from the mats traders? That idea has been suggested before and as long as the mats traders are charging a premium for the mats I would be good with that.. There must be some sort of costs for all that sweet ship pimping those engineers do for us. I also think a credit cost for the ship pimping would make sense, weird that those engineers do all that work for free.... I wouldn't if I was an engineer. Don't think many people would!

Then they may as well be free with the current system for credits. Unless certain mats cost 100M each the VO and LTD gold-rush really negates there being a credit cost to most things at all.

 

[House0fDerp]

"Do, or do not. There is no grind".
"Never his mind on Where He Was; What He Was Doing!"

Factual statements regarding subjective qualifications seem like a fools errand.

Enjoyment is subjective; the values of game rewards are subjective.

The definition of grind and the places where it is needed are subjective.

Luke was grinding his Jedi level.

 

[Rat Catcher]

if they're optional and people are still grinding for them then there must be reasons to grind things without needing them.

So, do we understand from your continuing argument that you are 'grinding' for something optional, and declaming the grind even though it is optional?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No, it isn't, and you're contradicting yourself by saying it is. If the only reason to grind is needing things, and people are grinding, they must inherently need those things and you're wrong in saying they're optional. Conversely, if they're optional and people are still grinding for them then there must be reasons to grind things without needing them. That or the whole train of thought you constructed is based on faulty thinking disproven by the very existence of the conversation we're having.

No I'm not. You only don't need the grind for stuff you don't need, but you can still choose to.

That was already explained:

That explains nothing.

 

[House0fDerp]

No I'm not. You only don't need the grind for stuff you don't need, but you can still choose to.

Really? that seems an odd thing to say because I was told:

The only reason to grind is if you need something. If you don't there is no need to grind it out. It's simple.

But clearly for people to choose to grind there must be an underlying reason...

That explains nothing.

...like say:

...there's stuff you want to play with on the other end of that for your space ship in a game about space ships which makes you want to have it done even if you don't want to do it.

 

[tomimt]

The big problem with Elite is, that the grind is deeply rooted in what the game is. You grind for material, you grind for exploration, you grind for combat and the main reason why it feels like a grind is, that in the end none of it really means anything. It all is just a series of pointless exercises in doing stuff just for the sake of doing stuff over and over again.

I have a blog of my own and with each update, I've tried to write something about Elite, but with the Beyond I couldn't really come up with anything to say about the game. While there are changes, it still just boils down to doing the same stuff over and over again with no real purpose.

I guess that is fine for some people. They find it either fun or comforting. But then again, I have seen comments even from those who claim to like the game, that they usually do other stuff at the same time they play the game. they travel the galaxy and watch TV or read during the jumps, because at the end that is so monotonous exercise. And that to me screams of game design, that doesn't quite work.

And that is really a shame, as there is a lot to like about Elite. I do like the mechanics of it and the flying is fun. It just is, that it all turns the same old pretty quickly.

 

[Wrecked]

how do You size the reward, please, with you're fun-meter ?, in futts?

No silly, in Arx!

 

[xaisis]

Hey Frontier, NMS reduced the grind and all players are happy. Please take note.

Not much left. if they do that.

 

[Wrecked]

Yeah, listen to the man. If you press 'L', you land.

Right? I mean COME ON!!! IT'S THE FUTURE!!! Why do I have to land my own ship? Should a landing computer do that for me? It's like playing Top Gun on the NES and trying to land!!! Oh it's blue... but I went a little to far... time to back up... oh... too far again... damn it... go forwa.... ahhh... back... forward... then your plane crashes into the ocean in front of the aircraft carrier.

 

[Wrecked]

My belief is they both have different core aims. Hello Games is currently focussed on making NMS a better game. Frontier are focussed on growing the business. FDev could develop ED at a similar pace as HG has developed NMS but that wouldn't fit their aim. One has to say they have done a reasonable job of expanding into new franchises. It just likely comes at the cost of ED.

Could we please have some hard evidence for the above statements?

Sure, Hello Games have repeatedly said they still have a small team working on the NMS... FDev said they have over 100... do the math. Either HG devs are so amazing, they can do the work of 10 devs in a fraction of the time, or the 100 FDev devs working on ED are fresh out of code camp and are learning with each new work assignment. I don't know.

 

[AgentGB]

Well said. Okay, how about paying for mats from the mats traders? That idea has been suggested before and as long as the mats traders are charging a premium for the mats I would be good with that.. There must be some sort of costs for all that sweet ship pimping those engineers do for us. I also think a credit cost for the ship pimping would make sense, weird that those engineers do all that work for free.... I wouldn't if I was an engineer. Don't think many people would!

I'd be quite happy with that, i'm not swimming in credits though to be honest, but i'd rather pay for mats through pirating which i enjoy, as a means of tweaking my ship then doing some of the other stuff, & whatever mats i collect on my travels will help mitigate that credit cost you're talking about. This is a decent suggestion imo. In the end a certain amount of effort is still required, but i atleast get to choose how i do it which would be a most welcome change.

Then they may as well be free with the current system for credits. Unless certain mats cost 100M each the VO and LTD gold-rush really negates there being a credit cost to most things at all.

Not everyone is swimming in credits done through mining. Especially newer players. Creating credit sinks for the sake of sake or attempting to match inflation with some accounts is how the grind gets worst. I mean people grinding these trillions of credits through mining are either doing it in preparation for carriers, expecting mining rush to be nerfed, or something, because they'll never spend all those credits even if they tried, they've personnally just gone OTT. I usually keep enough for about 20 rebuys & have no interest in carriers.

Also if you wanna keep in line with the going rate of Grade 5 materials. Look at some of the missions that offer either 1 million credits or one 'grade 5' material. That would be more than fair. So up to a million for a single grade 5 material.

 

[House0fDerp]

So, do we understand from your continuing argument that you are 'grinding' for something optional, and declaming the grind even though it is optional?

Sure, because:

• It's a videogame. Everything is optional
• Being a videogame and being optional has never been an immunity from criticism anywhere but here
• Optional content is still content that is designed to be played. It's still content in the game
• Even optional content should aspire to be good and requirements for it to make sense
• The fact that people are grinding for the content means the content is clearly desirable and gameplay affecting...
• ...Which means it's probably worth getting right and providing criticism where it may fall short...
• ...And it should be painfully obvious why people do the content in the first place despite it being optional and undesirable, the aforementioned desirability of what rewards the content gives.

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

Sure, Hello Games have repeatedly said they still have a small team working on the NMS... FDev said they have over 100... do the math

That's why Elite is well optimized with amazing graphics, sounds, music and above all has working multiplayer and is playable. NMS multiplayer, optimization, graphics and sounds are sub par, at best.

 

[Amanojaku]

New to the forums but been playing Elite for over a year now.

Imo, it's not necessarily the grind that's the problem. Everyone can find an activity they enjoy, and every game is a grind if you think about it. If you play CoD you grind team deathmatch over and over and over to unlock better weapons.

The problem is that ED is sparse on NPC interaction and rpg elements to make the grind more enjoyable when you are doing an activity you DON'T necessarily enjoy.

If FDev would only add some NPC dialogue trees and rpg elements to Power Play for example, it could make PP great. Imagine working your way up the ranks and it actually feeling like you are working for a faction, instead of a mundane activity like doing taxes. As you rise through the ranks, you could meet more influential npcs and they would compliment you on your dedication and performance. They could even offer you occasional unique missions for better rewards. Like if you were working for Aisling, you would get a specail mission where you snuck into Hudson space, assassinated a target or acquired data, then you were rewarded with merits, some credits and maybe even some decent mats. Maybe, when you reach King rank for the Empire and manage to get to rank 5 in PP under Aisling, youy get a special mission from Aisling herself where you have to escort an imperial convoy and fend off dirty fed raiders.

The rewards should increase slightly for your investment in your Power, and the NPCs should recognize you as a major player, and you should FEEL like you actually matter.

I'm just using PP as an example. More NPC interaction and dialogue would help all areas of the game come alive and be more satisfying, and it would feel like far less of a grind.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Sure, because:

• It's a videogame. Everything is optional
• Being a videogame and being optional has never been an immunity from criticism anywhere but here
• Optional content is still content that is designed to be played. It's still content in the game
• Even optional content should aspire to be good and requirements for it to make sense
• The fact that people are grinding for the content means the content is clearly desirable and gameplay affecting...
• ...Which means it's probably worth getting right and providing criticism where it may fall short...
• ...And it should be painfully obvious why people do the content in the first place despite it being optional and undesirable, the aforementioned desirability of what rewards the content gives.

An excellent, well opined summary.

I guess it all revolves around one's opinion of the concepts in-game, I agree wholly that some outcomes are desirable, the mechanics provided are, in my opinion, sufficient for the purpose, at no point in nearly 2,000 hours of play have I had to 'grind' for anything as I've been happy to do things 'as & when' and that suits my perception of recreation.

Although we both achieve the same result, that of something that will enhance gameplay, we approach the situation from differing viewpoints, one of us 'grinding' and the other just playing.

Naturally, we are both absolutely correct in our perception of the gameplay.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Thought the forums were for feedback. Truth be told, i find the forums more engaging than the current grind of engineering, at least i get a good laugh. Thought at its core FD still operates as a business. Not sure how a game heralded as "grind being the core of the game" will entice more players into it outside some of the screenshot bait & retain them. Asking that the grind be sensible is not a big ask imo

Yeah but as you said before it's only grindy for PvPers. The rest of us are fine so heralding the game as grind being the core of the game is meaningless to those who play the whole game rather than just PvP.

 

[Compander]

Relatively new player's opinion follows...

I find that the activities needed to acquire assets in ED to be properly balanced. It does get repetitious at times, but this is a future-life simulator ...replicating professions for which additional labor (player time) can OPTIONALLY be spent to gain improvements. There are so many online resources to help with every challenge, that it feels a bit like cheating, so I just pretend that the shared knowledge would be available in situ.

I think FDev has done incredible work in providing an entire galaxy for me to spend my leisure time in.

To the disgruntled I suggest: "If it's not fun, don't do it."

 

[House0fDerp]

Yeah but as you said before it's only grindy for PvPers. The rest of us are fine so heralding the game as grind being the core of the game is meaningless to those who play the whole game rather than just PvP.

I'm not a PvP'er.

I have ground for items and upgrades useful for PvE combat and travel.

I've mostly done it because I enjoy power progression in games: a purely voluntary and subjectively enjoyable endpoint.

With regard to the progression systems specifically, yes, the game is largely repetition based, with varying degrees of freedom on what to repeat based on what you're going for and how efficient you care to try to be.

That said, that's primarily with regard to the power progression systems past what credits can buy really and not other aspects of play. But when you have a tool you want to apply to the rest of the game as a whole, IE the Cutter being your dream hauler or a heavily modded Corvette being your hunter salvager, that part of the game is a lot of what you might interact with. So I guess that for those who play with those systems in mind it may well be the core of the game while for others it's clearly not.