Discussion on separate console/PC leaderboards for Buckyball race events.

During the recent "Full Throttle at Pareco" Buckyball race (which was ultimately a huge success) a slightly surprising (to me at least) topic came up which is that apparently there are a significant number of console players who've been reluctant to take part in Buckyball race events because differences between console and PC mean they feel they've been unable to post competitive times.

I'm actually quite disturbed by this as we (the Buckyball Racing Club) have always strived to be as inclusive as possible. We run our time trial races over the course of an entire week (so everyone, irrespective of timezone, family commitments, etc) gets a reasonable chance to participate; we loosely try not to run too many consecutive SRV (or other planetary based) events so as not to exclude non-Horizons players; we usually have a regulation ship class (so it's not just the richest players with the most engineered ships who win); and we (or at least I) believed that we were platform agnostic.

So what I'd like to do here is try to gather some feedback about the console based Elite: Dangerous experience and whether we should consider having separate leaderboards for PC and console in future races.

To be clear, personally I've never used either an Xbox or PS4 to play Elite so I am pretty ignorant about what the experience is like.

I believe the case for having separate leaderboards stems from two main areas. The first is the controller itself which many seem to feel is a barrier to competitive racing (although, at the risk of injecting too much bias here, I have to add that the Thrustmaster T.Flight HOTAS, which I personally use, is, as far as I know, also available for Xbox and PS4?). The second is that apparently consoles suffer from slower transition times in and out of supercruise and hyperspace, and also perhaps, performance issues re: openining up things like the side navigation panel?

On the flipside, the main argument for not having separate leaderboards is that we don't want to create an artificial divide between PC and console players if we don't have to. Any form of Us and Them situation is surely best avoided if at all possible?

So ... I'd really welcome people's input on this. I'm aware (from recent experience) that this subject can easily turn quite antagonistic so I'd like to encourage people to try and focus more on addressing this opening post than on what's been written in this thread by others. I'd also like to say now that not everyone contributing to this discussion will be a fluent English speaker so please try not to take immediate offence at any seemingly aggressive turns of phrase.

In particular I'd like to hear about people's first hand experience of any of the performance issues I've mentioned (especially anyone who's had the opportunity to play on both console and PC), I'm interested in thoughts on the controller issue and whether it's reasonable for me to say that a console player can get themselves a cheap HOTAS just as easily as I can, I'd like to know about any other factors I may have missed and I'd also really like to hear from console players who've been aware of past Buckyball Racing Club events but who haven't participated because of any of the reasons given above (or others).

Thanks in advance.
Alec Turner
brc_banner_512.png
 
Last edited:
Try a separate leader board at the next event.
You would have to have an indication on what controller the PS4/Console player was using to get an idea of what was happening.

Also, are there any keyboard PC players taking part that are posting good times?
 
Personally I am using a controller on PC. While having mapped a few keyboard keys for stuff like landing gear or "set throttle to 100%", I don't think button mapping is a main issue (use bookmarks for stations in galmap!). Not sure about the loading times though, so i don't know how I feel about this.
 
I had not played on PC, but i've watched movies (Bruski's movie was quite a revelation)

Opening left panel and selecting landing targets, which was done many many times in previous race is notably slower on consoles
Getting in and out of SC is also slower.
Not sure how framerate affect things, but general responsiveness is obviously trailing on consoles.

Controller type might have a part in it too, but playing with a controller instead of hotas is a choice after all.
So I would dismiss controller setup / choice from the separation factors.
 
Would be nice, from the point of view of knowing whether views are first hand or second if participants could let us know what platform they're playing on.

I play on PC only, although I did buy a copy for xbox during a Christmas sale, so I plan to finally give it a go to compare performance. I've been planning to try and set up a Buckyball Racing Club squadron on xbox anyway. :)

@Northpin thanks, for the thoughts. The left panel does sound like a bad issue, we don't normally need it to navigate like the last race, as it's usually quicker to set GalMap bookmarks, but you can make multiple docking requests very quickly on PC to get a decent pad.
 
For any console players who've been reluctant to take part (because of platform) would it need a separate leaderboard to get you to have a go? Or would identifying platform on the board be enough?

As @Alec Turner mentioned, we are a little worried that separating leaderboards might actually be more divisive - and we don't tend to get more than 20-30 entries even in our most popular races.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
I do not like the idea of separate leaderboards for PC and Consoles, there is enough division around that topic as there is, and the one thing we have always strived to do is be inclusive.

Would you split Xbox and PS4? Would you split Xbox One and the One X, and PS4 and PS4 Pro? What about different spec PCs? Internet connections?

Controller type is irrelevant in my opinion, because Gamepads and HOTAS are available for all platforms. If K/M has a distinct advantage, then that is a different matter and will also require a separate leaderboard from everything else.

I am all for making a note of what platform people are playing on, but unless someone can prove there's a significant difference which would put console players at a big disadvantage then I don't see the point of separate leaderboards.

Let's also not forget that most races do not call for the amount of SC entry/exit and Navigation Panel use as this one did, by a long stretch.

Opening left panel and selecting landing targets, which was done many many times in previous race is notably slower on consoles

Can you post a video of this happening please? All I have heard is anecdotal evidence for it and it would be very interesting to see the difference. Mainly to try and work out why it is, and why there is no discrepancy between different PC builds.
 
Last edited:
...The left panel does sound like a bad issue, we don't normally need it to navigate like the last race, as it's usually quicker to set GalMap bookmarks, but you can make multiple docking requests very quickly on PC to get a decent pad.

Opening Galmap is even worse :)
Anyway, last race I could barely make 3 landing pad selections while flying a 400ms Viper. You guys can make 3-4 flying 800ms ships :)
Not sure this affected much the race - after all, one can get unlucky even after 3 changes. I did got pad 31 3 times in a row in one attempt 🙃

I think SC loading times was inducing a nastier delay.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Opening Galmap is even worse :)
Anyway, last race I could barely make 3 landing pad selections while flying a 400ms Viper. You guys can make 3-4 flying 800ms ships :)
Not sure this affected much the race - after all, one can get unlucky even after 3 changes. I did got pad 31 3 times in a row in one attempt 🙃

I think SC loading times was inducing a nastier delay.
I've been running a GTX 560 on my PC recently because my other graphics card died. It takes between 10 and 15 seconds to open the System Map and generally between 5 and 15 seconds to open the Galaxy Map.
 
I can try posting a movie, but i think someone like @Raiko who's used with the racing rush could spot the console slowness even better, if he manages to fire the game up on console.

Anyway, i'm not advocating for separate leaderboards, just pointing out some differences which, i think, all stem from the obvious performance gap between a console and a top tier gaming rig.
Hopefully next gen consoles will all have SSD's and much better gfx
 
Would you split Xbox and PS4? Would you split Xbox One and the One X, and PS4 and PS4 Pro? What about different spec PCs? Internet connections?

Also,
HOTAS vs K/M vs controller vs off-brand controller,
VR vs non-VR,
Voice Attack,
Macros,
Hours played.
Elite status,
Beta backer,
custom hud colours,
previous racing experience,
usage of game tricks (eg. "air brakes" and the like)
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Anyway, i'm not advocating for separate leaderboards, just pointing out some differences which, i think, all stem from the obvious performance gap between a console and a top tier gaming rig.

Well you've answered it there. How many of our racers do you think actually have top tier gaming rigs? For the last 4 years I've been using a Xeon e3-1230 processor and 8Gb of RAM. Consoles blow my setup out of the water, the only thing keeping me holding my own in the game performance wise was the Graphics card which was an r9-280.

I'm not saying there's no difference in the optimisation for consoles and PCs, because I believe there is, but you cannot just uses specs as the difference.
 
Not sure if this is still the case but when I started Buckyball Racing (many years ago now) I had a really terrible internet connection which I was pretty sure was the reason I couldn't drag my race performance up out of the bottom end of the leaderboards (and definitely accounted for my lacklustre Sag A* run) ... well, it was either that or the fact that my skillz were weak. :unsure:
 
I think just having an extra column on the leaderboard showing which platform you're playing on would be enough.

Internet connection does indeed affect some things. I'm pretty sure it affects the amount of time it takes to get into and drop out of super cruise.
 
I think just having an extra column on the leaderboard showing which platform you're playing on would be enough.

Internet connection does indeed affect some things. I'm pretty sure it affects the amount of time it takes to get into and drop out of super cruise.

If you have a really laggy connection; Then there is something wrong with your ISP or other people are using all the banswidth available. I can imaging ED servers being more busy but I can not imagin people gaming on a connection with so little bandwidth that gaming is inhibited. You need max a couple of mbit. Not sure how if there is a big impact on your geological location tho.

Also ssd or no ssd should have few impact on gaming performance as the game should be in memory and not being read from disk. Tho to really answer this question one needs inside Fdev info.
 
Have a platform column in the results and call out 1st console?

Those who do really well at buckyball races dedicate a large amount of time in runs and research. When you first start out it can be quite a shock how fast some cmdrs can go!

Hello fellow buckyballers it's been a while 🙂
 
I've never tried racing in Elite. But i've raced online for many years on pc and consoles, starting from the roots at the end of the nineties, till some years ago, when i burned out from managing an entire online championship with ~ 80 pilots racing in a 8 months championship, made of 10 , 12 races. At the same time i was racing myself, and managing my racing team too. We're speaking sim car racing here. The op should, in my opinion, note that the console players did not want unified leaderboards with pc players because they felt they could not be competitive with them.

What does it mean ? It means, imo, that these people take the competitive aspect of the event seriously.

They feel ( does not matter if this feeling is correct or not ) that they can't compete with pc players on even grounds.

So i guess separate leaderboards are the only way. The organizer has no means to level the field, being the handicap real or only perceived , i guess.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom