General / Off-Topic Recycle or Die! (the elite environmental thread)

[Six6VI]

As some philosophers say:

The solution is in the problem.

Most of the many civilization-threatening problems we face can be solved if we have exergy. That is another word for available usable energy. When Clausius invented the term "entropy" he deliberately chose a word that was as close to energy as possible. We don't use energy. We use exergy. That creates entropy. Entropy can be understood as dispersion of energy. Von Neumann claimed that you could win any discussion by using the word entropy, because nobody knew (knows) what entropy really is. It's in the understanding of entropy that you'll find "the holy grail" if it's even there. It's not in perpetual motion, but that shouldn't keep anyone from trying, if they want to. They just have to prove that it works, and my personal opinion based on physics, is that looking for it is a waste of precious time.

And some engineers, and economists might say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The species has managed to cooperate to bring about quantum leaps in some areas, but not others, as far as we can see. If we're still using steam turbines to generate 80~90% of our electricity, there seems to be more than a century of lag where little progress has been made other than alternative heat source.

Graphene (Carbon) looks promising in Solar, but not so much for mobile off-grid applications, maybe...

Spoiler

[Edit: Ignore the time machine part, I'm just focusing on the power source: "Mr Fusion".]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptlhgFaB89Y

 

[Six6VI]

The climate movement needs to get out of its morale trap.

Found an interesting interview with Mathew Huber that got me reviewing some of my own positions. Mathew Huber is a member of the DSA (Democratic Socialists of Amerika) which I guess makes him a no go read for some of the posters here. Anyway, some of his positions weren't all too comfortable to me either, but I believe it's high time to start thinking beyond our crusted opinions and political left/right dogmas.

Basically, he's critizising the current ecologic movement (which is very much on topic here) and explains why. It also helped me a little to better understand some of the here posted positions that seem to be rather specific to american social conditions.

Ecological Politics for the Working Class

Solving the ecological crisis requires a mass movement to take on hugely powerful industries. Yet environmentalism’s base in the professional-managerial class and focus on consumption has little chance of attracting working-class support. This article argues for a program that tackles the...

catalyst-journal.com

Just for reference, here's the German interview that I mentioned above:

"Die Klimabewegung muss raus aus der Moralfalle"

Matthew Huber über Umweltbewegungen in der Moralfalle, marktwirtschaftliche Reformen und die Chancen für einen "Green New Deal"

www.heise.de

Thanks for posting, got to this bit and stopped reading:

Quote: Ecological producers are the plants that harness solar power and water [oops, forgot CO2] to produce organic plant matter at the base of any “food web.”

Seems they might have the right general idea: They who hath the gold are calling all the shots, making a mess and blaming it on we peons, but I'm not sure an adversarial approach will end well. The current climate hysteria might help motivate the herd toward action but not until we stop fighting with each other.

Consumption includes more than just food, fuel and electricity. Domestic appliances and luxury items could be designed to be repaired, upgraded and thereby last longer instead of going in a landfill every two years because the ink cartridges cost more than a new printer or a new phone is "free" with a contract.

The solution is unlikely to be polarised to one extreme. Change requires collaboration of capital, and labour.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Domestic appliances and luxury items could be designed to be repaired, upgraded and thereby last longer instead of going in a landfill every two years because the ink cartridges cost more than a new printer or a new phone is "free" with a contract.

Regardless of everything else in this topic, this is so true... I find it quite depressing that I had an 18 month of 42inch TV, that developed a fault, after a fight I had it repaired for free. 12 months later the same fault happened....... it was not economically viable to fix it professionally and LG told me to bin it and buy a new one.

the fix................. I took the back off, unplugged a ribbon cable, cleaned with alcohol (didnt have pure so in true bodge it manner used vodka)edit my mistake that was a different repair that i used vodka, this repair involved a............ pencil rubber. I just had to clean the carbon buildup off the ribbon cable , plugged back in and the TV worked for another 3 years.....
Truth is with a better design i bet even then it would have been repairable....

Compare that to my 14 inch colour tv i got in, probably xmas 1984.... That was still going in 1998 as my mums bedroom TV - I know this as i moved back home for a time after uni whilst looking for work.... she eventually got rid but only because she could buy a better screened one which used a fraction of the power and took up far less room.... it was still fully functional (truth be told i wish i still had it, would be great for retrogaming).

back when i was a kid things like tv repair men were par for the course..... now adays it is a dead profession.

 

[Arry]

Regardless of everything else in this topic, this is so true... I find it quite depressing that I had an 18 month of 42inch TV, that developed a fault, after a fight I had it repaired for free. 12 months later the same fault happened....... it was not economically viable to fix it professionally and LG told me to bin it and buy a new one.

the fix................. I took the back off, unplugged a ribbon cable, cleaned with alcohol (didnt have pure so in true bodge it manner used vodka)edit my mistake that was a different repair that i used vodka, this repair involved a............ pencil rubber. I just had to clean the carbon buildup off the ribbon cable , plugged back in and the TV worked for another 3 years.....
Truth is with a better design i bet even then it would have been repairable....

Compare that to my 14 inch colour tv i got in, probably xmas 1984.... That was still going in 1998 as my mums bedroom TV - I know this as i moved back home for a time after uni whilst looking for work.... she eventually got rid but only because she could buy a better screened one which used a fraction of the power and took up far less room.... it was still fully functional (truth be told i wish i still had it, would be great for retrogaming).

back when i was a kid things like tv repair men were par for the course..... now adays it is a dead profession.

Such things, used to be built. Now they are, just put together.

 

[Six6VI]

Regardless of everything else in this topic, this is so true... I find it quite depressing that I had an 18 month of 42inch TV, that developed a fault, after a fight I had it repaired for free. 12 months later the same fault happened....... it was not economically viable to fix it professionally and LG told me to bin it and buy a new one.

the fix................. I took the back off, unplugged a ribbon cable, cleaned with alcohol (didnt have pure so in true bodge it manner used vodka)edit my mistake that was a different repair that i used vodka, this repair involved a............ pencil rubber. I just had to clean the carbon buildup off the ribbon cable , plugged back in and the TV worked for another 3 years.....
Truth is with a better design i bet even then it would have been repairable....

Compare that to my 14 inch colour tv i got in, probably xmas 1984.... That was still going in 1998 as my mums bedroom TV - I know this as i moved back home for a time after uni whilst looking for work.... she eventually got rid but only because she could buy a better screened one which used a fraction of the power and took up far less room.... it was still fully functional (truth be told i wish i still had it, would be great for retrogaming).

back when i was a kid things like tv repair men were par for the course..... now adays it is a dead profession.

800 grit wet and dry. I've lost count of the computers I've fixed by lightly freshening up the bare copper.

 

[WeComeInPeace]

The climate movement needs to get out of its morale trap.

Found an interesting interview with Mathew Huber that got me reviewing some of my own positions. Mathew Huber is a member of the DSA (Democratic Socialists of Amerika) which I guess makes him a no go read for some of the posters here. Anyway, some of his positions weren't all too comfortable to me either, but I believe it's high time to start thinking beyond our crusted opinions and political left/right dogmas.

Basically, he's critizising the current ecologic movement (which is very much on topic here) and explains why. It also helped me a little to better understand some of the here posted positions that seem to be rather specific to american social conditions.

Ecological Politics for the Working Class

Solving the ecological crisis requires a mass movement to take on hugely powerful industries. Yet environmentalism’s base in the professional-managerial class and focus on consumption has little chance of attracting working-class support. This article argues for a program that tackles the...

catalyst-journal.com

Just for reference, here's the German interview that I mentioned above:

"Die Klimabewegung muss raus aus der Moralfalle"

Matthew Huber über Umweltbewegungen in der Moralfalle, marktwirtschaftliche Reformen und die Chancen für einen "Green New Deal"

www.heise.de

Thanks for the links. Haven't read them yet, aber ich will

 

[Patrick_68000]

Climate change and all its involved topics are terribly complex and pretty heated (pun not intended)...

The exchanges between Cmdrs on this thread are also.

 

[Six6VI]

Double down doom and gloom vs. nobody knows, review the evidence and let's discuss...

Spoiler

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVXHaSqpsVg

 

[Zak Gordon]

So we had those Amazon 'worst yet' forrest fires, then the recent ones in California (that looked pretty bad), so now it is Australia's turn

Australia bushfires: Record number of emergencies in New South Wales

Australia bushfires: Record number of emergencies in New South Wales

An unprecedented number of blazes bring the highest threat level to New South Wales, officials say.

www.bbc.com

Australian authorities say an "unprecedented" number of emergency-level bushfires are threatening the state of New South Wales (NSW).

More than 90 blazes were raging across the state on Friday. Gusty winds and up to 35C heat have exacerbated the fires, many of which are in drought-affected areas.

There are reports of people trapped in their homes in several places, with crew unable to reach them due to the strength of the fires.

.....

Authorities in the state warn that many fires will continue to burn unless there is more rain.

"We just cannot overstate the profound impact that the drought is having on fire behaviour," Mr Fitzsimmons said.

.......

Officials have confirmed that 2018 and 2017 were Australia's third and fourth-hottest years on record respectively.

The bureau's State of the Climate 2018 report said climate change had led to an increase in extreme heat events and increased the severity of other natural disasters, such as drought.

Even if global temperatures are contained to a 2C rise above pre-industrial levels - a limit set out in the landmark Paris accord, agreed by 188 nations in 2015 - scientists believe the country is facing a dangerous new normal.

Last year, a UN report said Australia was falling short in efforts to cut its CO2 emissions.

 

[Noddie]

I've fixed computers before by just taking them apart, and putting them back together when I couldn't find a fault. Then shrugging my shoulders. Can't be sure, but it was probably either a dirty contact ore on that wasn't properly seated. Or a build up of static on something. Or the opportunity to disconnect some chip from it's power source so it could re-initialise. Who can say?

The thing about repair is that it does have it's own environmental consequences. Firstly you need to ship the broken machinery to a repairer and back. Also the cleaning products may be far-from green, and you need to keep a stock of spare parts that need to be made. Is it better to send someone a new unit, or have someone send back the old one - have it repaired - and then ship it back to the customer? - all to keep older tech going that may be less efficient than it's replacement. Sometimes you only buy a short time, because it's basically worn out, so the environmental cost of resus is actually a significant component of the environmental impact of a product that really ought to be replaced.

It is not always as black-and-white as people seem to think.

 

[Morbad]

The thing about repair is that it does have it's own environmental consequences. Firstly you need to ship the broken machinery to a repairer and back. Also the cleaning products may be far-from green, and you need to keep a stock of spare parts that need to be made. Is it better to send someone a new unit, or have someone send back the old one - have it repaired - and then ship it back to the customer? - all to keep older tech going that may be less efficient than it's replacement. Sometimes you only buy a short time, because it's basically worn out, so the environmental cost of resus is actually a significant component of the environmental impact of a product that really ought to be replaced.

It is not always as black-and-white as people seem to think.

All true and one of the reasons I try to understand everything I own or to some degree.

I own very little that I cannot conduct basic diagnostics and repairs on myself. If something of mine breaks, I will be able to figure out why, and I will be able to make an informed decision on whether the repair is worth my time, or someone else's time for the uncommon cases when they might be able to do a better job, or the same job for less.

This seems to be an uncommon sort of thing and by and large, people are far too willing to replace what could easily be repaired and returned to service, often defaulting to replacement purely out of ignorance.

I have a pile of fairly decent laptops (nothing too high end, but enough that I can make sure everyone in my wife's large extended family always has something suitably practical) that originated from my wife's co-workers and students. They, like many computer illiterates (and computer illiteracy is on the rise...as something enters the mainstream, the expectation that anyone need know about it's inner workings to use it vanishes) are at a total loss when something goes wrong, and falling costs of electronics has made replacement competitive with professional repair. I give out free advice, but as often as not these people would rather sell me their stuff when it's due to be wiped OS reinstall than pay someone to do it...on the dubious assumption that something new and shiny will be able to overcome habitual user error. So, I can wind up with something that would still retail for several hundred dollars and all I have to do in exchange is salvage some files.

Of course, some things are beyond hope or have reached the end of their utility and need to be replaced. The trick is knowing the difference.

 

[Zak Gordon]

I hear you (both!).

I started a thread years ago about trying to find the 'best' producers of computer parts for those of an environmentally concerned mind. It is a bit of an oxymoron in some aspects, but so much of the modern world runs and relies on computer technology that i was interested in doing as much as i could in this sector of my life as well.

But as Morbad mentions, the very best thing is to have as little tech as possible. I subscribe to that also, no smart phones in this house etc, and i keep computers for as long as they work (mostly). So currently i have a Athlon64 based Windows XP machine (i use offline and it has some tools i use that work best on it's platform vs my newer PC), a 'current' i5 gaming/work system (Windows 7) and a to be used 'soon' new build m-itx gaming system with a Ryzen CPU, this will be for my eldest boy in a few years or so. And 3 laptops the family uses (everything from this crusty Vista era (now Linux Mint) laptop i post online stuff with to newer AMD based ones).

I could have more or newer systems more often but i prefer to keep the older still functional stuff going as long as possible. But even that can have draw backs. For example that Athlon64 Windows XP system uses more electricity than my newer desktops, so you have to keep that kind of stuff in mind also.

Anyway i can't remember if i posted that thread about 'environmental tech' here or somewhere else? It was based off a green peace report iirc? Might have been this (or an older version?):

Greenpeace Report: Guide to Greener Electronics 2017

An analysis of what 17 of the world’s leading consumer electronics companies are doing to address their environmental impacts.

www.greenpeace.org

Anyway it is not easy, but from a PC builder perspective it seemed Gigabyte were one of the leading brands in terms of their efforts to reduce their environmental impact etc. It might be different now, but as i found in the lost original thread i made on the topic, it is actually really hard as a PC tech person to get clear solid details on the subject.

-----------------

In other news Africa is set to be a world leader in using renewables:

'Africa poised to lead way in global green revolution, says report':

Africa poised to lead way in global green revolution, says report

Continent is set for massive urbanisation but can avoid relying on fossil fuels, says IEA

www.theguardian.com

Africa is poised to lead the world’s cleanest economic revolution by using renewable energy sources to power a massive spread of urbanisation, says an IEA report.

The IEA, or International Energy Agency, predicts that solar energy will play a big role in supporting the continent’s growing population and industrialisation over the next 20 years.

Africa has less than half the solar power installations seen in the UK, despite the sunnier conditions, but the IEA is predicting a solar boom in countries across the continent, which could give hundreds of millions of homes electricity for the first time.

Sounds awesome

 

[Zak Gordon]

'Climate change: Sea ice loss linked to spread of deadly virus':

Climate change: Sea ice loss linked to spread of deadly virus

Scientists say the decline of Arctic sea ice is connected to the spread of disease among marine mammals.

www.bbc.com

The decline in sea ice seen in the Arctic in recent decades has been linked by scientists to the spread of a deadly virus in marine mammals.

Researchers found that Phocine distemper virus (PDV) had spread from animals in the North Atlantic to populations in the North Pacific.

The scientists say the spread of pathogens could become more common as ice declines further. The 15-year study tracked seals, sea lions and otters via satellite.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

The exchanges between Cmdrs on this thread are also.

It seems that literally reading the Ignore button and thus ignoring it, is a terrible mistake. Life without noise is better.

 

[Zak Gordon]

Nasty floods all across north-central UK currently, here are some pics with a few links to the stories in the article:

Flooding in Yorkshire – in pictures

Severe storms have brought a month’s rainfall in less than 24 hours to parts of central and northern England

www.theguardian.com

Now reading through the 'news' on these floods what is being said is they are not directly being attributed to AGW causes (although the rain fall has been well above normal, that can 'just happen') but indirectly it is. The flooding in Doncaster is being blamed on the flood defences they built in Sheffield back in 2015-16, and that is now causing bigger problems 'further down' the river tracks etc.

So when people say we can, for example, mitigate rising sea levels by building walls and sea defences etc, what that idea does not take into account is the local 'knock-on' effect. More rain events, higher tides are all just bad news and going to be huge forces for change across the world, economically as much as anything else.

 

[Arry]

Nasty floods all across north-central UK currently, here are some pics with a few links to the stories in the article:

Flooding in Yorkshire – in pictures

Severe storms have brought a month’s rainfall in less than 24 hours to parts of central and northern England

www.theguardian.com

Now reading through the 'news' on these floods what is being said is they are not directly being attributed to AGW causes (although the rain fall has been well above normal, that can 'just happen') but indirectly it is. The flooding in Doncaster is being blamed on the flood defences they built in Sheffield back in 2015-16, and that is now causing bigger problems 'further down' the river tracks etc.

So when people say we can, for example, mitigate rising sea levels by building walls and sea defences etc, what that idea does not take into account is the local 'knock-on' effect. More rain events, higher tides are all just bad news and going to be huge forces for change across the world, economically as much as anything else.

This happens all of the time. Those areas that have wealth and possible an M.P or two living there. Get good flood defenses and the means to move the water away, but then that either means, those upstream, get flooded out, or those downstream get flooded out. The river Medway has excellent flood prevention systems around the Tunbridge (a very well off area) areas, but this means, all the local towns up and downsteam, all suffer worse flooding.

 

[Patrick_68000]

It seems that literally reading the Ignore button and thus ignoring it, is a terrible mistake. Life without noise is better.

Yes, there is a saying that says: "Silence is golden"

 

[Six6VI]

Yes, there is a saying that says: "Silence is golden"

There's another one along the lines of:

Don't read the news, you're uninformed.
Do read the news, you're misinformed...

Find better sources than click bait media.

 

[Zak Gordon]

This happens all of the time. Those areas that have wealth and possible an M.P or two living there. Get good flood defenses and the means to move the water away, but then that either means, those upstream, get flooded out, or those downstream get flooded out. The river Medway has excellent flood prevention systems around the Tunbridge (a very well off area) areas, but this means, all the local towns up and downsteam, all suffer worse flooding.

Sadly true. I was having a discussion around this topic with some Americans, and the same happens over there, but it is interesting that when you posit the global rising tides over the next century to many people, they just say 'we can build flood defences' as if that is easy, not expensive, or not actually effective (as will be the case for many of the worlds cities).

Once the water hits a certain threshold (be it through more extreme regular flood events due to AGW, or rising sea levels), you just can't effectively combat it, you simply have to move. The costs of all that in the near future are going to be crushing.

------------------------

'Australia's climate response among the worst in the G20, report finds':

Australia's climate response among the worst in the G20, report finds

Brown to Green report highlights Australia’s poor response on deforestation, transport, energy supply and carbon pricing

www.theguardian.com

Australia’s response to climate change is one of the worst in the G20 with a lack of policy, reliance on fossil fuels and rising emissions leaving the country exposed “economically, politically and environmentally”, according to a new international report.

Australia’s progress to meeting its already “unambitious” Paris climate targets was third worst, fossil fuel energy was on the rise and policies to tackle high transport emissions and deforestation were also among the worst across the G20 countries.

The Brown to Green report, now in its fifth year, takes stock of the performance of G20 countries on climate change adaptation and mitigation across key sectors, and in the finance sector.

The chief executive of Climate Analytics, Bill Hare, an Australian co-author of the report, told Guardian Australia: “Australia is behind [on] climate action in nearly every dimension. Australia’s emissions are increasing and there’s virtually no policy in place to reduce them.”

Australia is very much a country in what i would call the 'grip of Murdoch Media', and has been this way for decades, so the above findings are not surprising given that. Still as they struggle with current terrible conditions of those fires you just hope more people are not going to lose their lives

 

[Patrick_68000]

There's another one along the lines of:

Don't read the news, you're uninformed.
Do read the news, you're misinformed...

Find better sources than click bait media.

Me I tend to read a maximum of different opinions to have me my opinion at the end.