Newcomer / Intro Gravity Wells and Speed

[Thatchinho]

In my experience, the only time* I get the "SLOW DOWN" in red is when I am approaching something I have targetted, regardless of distance, and suddenly start accelerating (since gravity wells don't appear to be visible I assume I passed into or through one). I get the part about coming in for a landing, and I think that is the only part you all are catching (no offense intended). Allow me to give an example that just happened to me in the game.

I am doing a bit of exploring on my way out to the 5,000 LY point to unlock an engineer. I jumped into a system, scooped fuel, ran the FSS, and found a planet worth mapping about 1200 LS out. I set the destination in the system panel, line up, and put the throttle at about 75%, which is about the middle of the blue. With about 200 LY to go and no nearby stars or planets (other than the one I am flying towards), I suddenly begin accelerating wildly (throttle position has not changed) and the "SLOW DOWN" warning comes up. At this point, I cut throttle (it makes no difference in the acceleration, but slows me fast after the next step) and dive until I am perpendicular (90-degrees-ish) to my original trajectory. Then and only then does the SLOW DOWN warning go away, and my ship begins to decelerate. Now I put the throttle back into the blue and bank 180-degrees to line back up with the planet I had intended to map. I get to within 10 LS (because I'm scanning, not landing, and the planet is not landable anyway) and drop the throttle to 50% to slow my approach, and the intention is to cut to 0 once I am within .25 to .45 LS, depending on the size of the planet, for DSS use. However, cruising in slowly, I suddenly get the SLOW DOWN and I begin rocketing forward again, requiring me to bank out about 90 degrees in order to slow down once more and re-approach. This time I don't experience any sudden acceleration.

There has to be another way to decelerate beyond banking out then re-aligning.

*I understand and admit I get the message if I am blatantly going too fast for what I am trying to do (like dock), or landing, but I mostly see it when the sudden acceleration occurs. Yes, I see that technically my speed is dropping according to the numerical readout at the top of the gauge, but the throttle gauge fills completely, the ship appears to speed based on the environment, and there is no slowing down.

EDIT: I also understand what you all are trying to tell me with regards to landing. I do actually follow that procedure, as that was one of the first things I looked up when I started to play. I do, however, randomly accelerate while doing so on occasion, which is the crux of my issue.

It’s all relatively easy to explain, but (it seems) you’re currently slightly misunderstanding what’s happening which is probably where the confusion is coming from.

Supercruise doesn’t work like normal space. Here’s what you need to know.

Supercruise has an overall maximum speed. Gravity acts as a restrictor, so every point in space has a local maximum speed, which roughly speaking = overall max / gravitational field strength at that point.

(It’s not the exact equation, but will do for the explanation)

Bearing all that in mind, in terms of the throttle, the key thing to realise is that the throttle indicators don’t show actual speed, they indicate your speed as a proportion of the local maximum at that point in space.

When you’re travelling in SC, and encounter a gravity well, the gravity will mean that the local maximum decreases, which will effectively put the brakes on.

However, prior to hitting the gravity well, you’ll typically be travelling at a high proportion of the local maximum in that general area. Your throttle indicator will be at an according level.

Bear in mind again that the throttle indicator is proportional. You hit the gravity well with a certain (high) speed, and the local a maximum starts dropping rapidly, and though you’re slowed down by it, you’re not slowed down as rapidly as the local maximum, and so the ratio of your speed to the local maximum increases.

As the throttle indicator is proportional, this means that the indicator will go up, even though you’re actually slowing down.

Others have already said, but when it happens and you’re not near any planets, it’s usually because you’re passing a belt cluster and grazing it’s gravity field. They don’t usually show on the HUD, but if you check your navpanel, you should be able to see them on there as the closest object in the list.

There’s a bit more to it all, but I think that deals with most of what you’re asking about.

Hope that helps!

 

[znôrt]

It’s all relatively easy to explain, but (it seems) you’re currently slightly misunderstanding what’s happening which is probably where the confusion is coming from.

Supercruise doesn’t work like normal space. Here’s what you need to know.

Supercruise has an overall maximum speed. Gravity acts as a restrictor, so every point in space has a local maximum speed, which roughly speaking = overall max / gravitational field strength at that point.

(It’s not the exact equation, but will do for the explanation)

Bearing all that in mind, in terms of the throttle, the key thing to realise is that the throttle indicators don’t show actual speed, they indicate your speed as a proportion of the local maximum at that point in space.

When you’re travelling in SC, and encounter a gravity well, the gravity will mean that the local maximum decreases, which will effectively put the brakes on.

However, prior to hitting the gravity well, you’ll typically be travelling at a high proportion of the local maximum in that general area. Your throttle indicator will be at an according level.

Bear in mind again that the throttle indicator is proportional. You hit the gravity well with a certain (high) speed, and the local a maximum starts dropping rapidly, and though you’re slowed down by it, you’re not slowed down as rapidly as the local maximum, and so the ratio of your speed to the local maximum increases.

As the throttle indicator is proportional, this means that the indicator will go up, even though you’re actually slowing down.

Others have already said, but when it happens and you’re not near any planets, it’s usually because you’re passing a belt cluster and grazing it’s gravity field. They don’t usually show on the HUD, but if you check your navpanel, you should be able to see them on there as the closest object in the list.

There’s a bit more to it all, but I think that deals with most of what you’re asking about.

Hope that helps!

this explanation is actually very good.

however, op, there is really no need to watch the throttle indicator, the same proportion is displayed by the eta display once you're familiar with the magic numbers.

>6 : press on
 6 : exact but not optimal, maintain speed if you want to die of boredom but be safe
<6 : you better start looping, spiraling or throttling down soon unless you plan to planet brake

that's really all there is to it. that and practice. the slow down indicator is completely irrelevant. it's just informative and in time you will know from the sound when you are entering a well. the real indicator is the eta timer.

(added) the other bit to take into account is that the smaller the magic value, the more sensitive the throttle is. that's why it's so easy to overshoot. well, that's just getting the feel, thus: practice.

the 6secs rule is simply a failproof method, it's just very inefficient and possibly also boring. planet braking is as fun as sc possibly can get, period. if you add vr, some good headphones and a vibration device tied to your chair it's probably the most intense experience possible in the game. it has also the virtue of encouraging you to jump and dock around, doing missions and stuff, because every time is an opportunity to practice and it's a skill that has a really high cap, so hardly ever gets old. without planet braking i would play less, no doubt

 

[Thatchinho]

this explanation is actually very good.

Thanks!

however, op, there is really no need to watch the throttle indicator, the same proportion is displayed by the eta display once you're familiar with the magic numbers.

>7 : press on
6 : exact but not optimal, maintain speed if you want to die of boredom but be safe
<6 : you better start looping, spiraling or throttling down soon unless you plan to planet brake

that's really all there is to it. that and practice. the slow down indicator is completely irrelevant. it's just informative and in time you will know from the sound when you are entering a well. the real indicator is the eta timer.

(added) the other bit to take into account is that the smaller the magic value, the more sensitive the throttle is. that's why it's so easy to overshoot. well, that's just getting the feel, thus: practice.

the 6secs rule is simply a failproof method, it's just very inefficient and possibly also boring. planet braking is as fun as sc possibly can get, period. if you add vr, some good headphones and a vibration device tied to your chair it's probably the most intense experience possible in the game. it has also the virtue of encouraging you to jump and dock around, doing missions and stuff, because every time is an opportunity to practice and it's a skill that has a really high cap, so hardly ever gets old. without planet braking i would play less, no doubt

Yeah, agreed with most of this (can't comment on the VR part! ). I also rarely use the time rule, it's spiralling and planet/gravity breaking for me any day unless it's just time for sitting back and relaxing (or if flying a ship which handles like a supertanker in SC, but I tend not to fly those for that exact reason! ). No flying in a straight line as a general rule either, obviously!

 

[HarlinQuinnX]

Thank you all for the replies and explanations. They definitely were informative and helpful. I do see that I was misreading the speed/message, and I follow the "6-second rule" as best possible. I have started using the keybind for 75% more often, since apparently even though I set the throttle to about the same spot (it doesn't move when engaging the keybind), even being 1% off kills the auto-throttle effect (which is kinda dumb, especially if I'm going slower and still in the blue). I did have it happen again a few times last night, though upon trying to reproduce for video purposes was next to impossible. Generally, it was a question of time (something in short supply when you single-parent a 4-year-old girl ), but also had trouble getting the exact same flight path to ensure the same result.

What was happening is that I would hit the slowdown while closing in on a planet to scan with the DSS. The ETA was still 6-seconds, and I would leave the throttle alone. Throttle position physically was about 75% (the actual handle on the HOTAS, T FLight ONe as I'm on Xbox and have ONE choice, I miss my CH setup, that's a whole other topic...), but the in-game throttle was set to 75% with a keybind. As per usual, I would cut the throttle to 0 physically once I was somewhere under 1 LS distance from the planet (my rule of thumb is to cut throttle once the planet fills the yellow circle to ensure a good scan distance without getting too close but not far enough away that I can't see the projected grid). Most of the time, this will bring me to a "stop" (yes, I know we don't stop in SC) just fine. But in the instance I am describing (doing the above while in Slow-Down), cutting the throttle seemed to lock me at speed and not slow me down, and I would still keep approaching the planet rapidly, forcing me to break and loop or become stuff on a rock. This is the source of my annoyance, though I admit it has greatly reduced in frequency since before I started this thread.

Again, I apologize for sounding argumentative before (and just not entirely getting it): I'm not an idiot, but being a single dad I am prone to "duh" moments after spending an hour of intense negotiations over bed-time, hair-brushing, and snacks after a long day of working with the public. At that point, brain-power has one, maybe one-and-a-half pips attributed.

 

[Para Handy]

.......... deleted by me ........

 

[Alec Turner]

Of course, if you REALLY want to get into the science and maths of supercruise flight then there's always this!

Optimal supercruise flight paths (courtesy of Cmdr Heisenberg6626)

Wait ... is that the sound of minds being blown that I can hear?

 

[HarlinQuinnX]

I am all into science and physics, but I have learned not to go down that rabbit-hole...Unless I have an IV drip of caffeine, the kidlet is at her mother's, and I have nothing on my schedule for a few days.

 

[Thatchinho]

What was happening is that I would hit the slowdown while closing in on a planet to scan with the DSS.

If it’s just for DSSing, then yeah, it’s a slightly different procedure to follow.

Generally speaking if you’re DSSing, you want to be doing that from a good distance from the planet. Basically this is so you don’t get too deep into the gravity well and SC speed restrictions until you need/want to. From that greater distance you’ll be able to either move much more effectively around the planet for a more optimal point of approach if you’re going closer or landing, or if you’re just going immediately on to another target you’ll be able to do so with minimal gravity well climbing (in other words you minimise the amount of time spent in ‘slower’ regions of space).

Rough basic procedure:

• fly to planet at full SC throttle
• at ETA = 7 or 8 seconds, throttle back to approx 75%*
• when DSS shows as being in range, throttle back to 0**.
• enter DSS***

I’d suggest using something like that as a general template, and then tailoring it to the specific circumstances, for example cruising in a little bit longer at 75% throttle if the planet in question is too small for your liking at the point when it’s first in DSS range.

Of course, you can always just go for deliberate gravity braking as well and hare in at full speed all the way - just remember to aim just to the side of the planet and not at the planet itself!


*I just do it by eye, so can’t comment on the exact 75% setting, but it seems to work for others

**either via HOTAS throttle, or via keybind -there should be a keybind already set for throttle = 0, if not, set one.

***no need to wait for speed to drop, can just enter DSS as soon as the throttle has been set to 0.

 

[ZeroAi]

Hi, Commanders!

I understand the reason (and science) behind speed going from 50% throttle to 300% throttle when entering or slingshotting through gravity wells. What I can't quite grasp is how to best manage it. I see a lot of posts saying "manage your speed," "set throttle in the blue," and the like, but that doesn't seem to make any difference. The only way I get out of the "SLOW DOWN!" mode is to bank 90 degrees or more (and even then I have to do it multiple times while on approach on occasion). Is there something I am missing? Is there a better way? It really sucks when you're on approach to a station, get lined up with the mail-slot side (according to sensors), then suddenly you're rocketing towards it too fast and have to change trajectory, and now you no longer have that optimal angle when you drop from SC.

I just wish the effect was more scientific.

The "runaway" ramping-up of speed we experience (typically when we get under 6 seconds of arrival of our destination) is not proportionally based on real physics (yes, the FSD is imaginary "faster than light" tech, so there's no reason it has to be based on realistic sub-light physics.)

Also, you can go from being at an uncontrollable speed but then slow down while still approaching a planet (without ever entering it's atmosphere,) - what really should happen is you should continue to accelerate as long as you're approaching the planet.

But then again, it's just a game ;-)

What would be cool is if we could install a second FSD in our ships backwards to give us a way to apply reverse throttle in Supercruise ;-)

o7

 

[Ashnak]

@ZeroAi : read the post of @Thatchinho above again. Your speed (as measured in m/s or %c) does not increase when you approach a gravity well. What does decrease, though, is the speed your FSD can handle - the higher the gravitic potential (more likely, the gradient), the lower the speed your FSD can handle. At 75% throttle, your FSD can adjust to any changes in the gravitic gradient as you approach your selected target. Approch faster than that, and you'll be running faster than your FSD can brake. Again, not because you accelerate, but because the "grip"/"traction" of your FSD decreases.

 

[Alec Turner]

One really great thing about all this stuff, this thing of tipping over (somewhere around the 0:05 eta limit) into "runaway" relative acceleration, is that it's all there in the audio. This stuff is the absolute bread and butter of a typical Buckyball Race, pushing that final SC approach speed to its limits, paying attention to the audio clues, and using the planet's gravity to slow your station approach at the very last moment to go from 0:03 (or even lower) to safe drop (using corkscrewing and/or pitching and looping) in order to save precious seconds. I strongly recommend anyone really intrigued by this stuff to give the latest race (Lava Loop linked in my sig banner) a try. Getting to those podium times is more challenging (and fun) than you might imagine. Not to mention that our races also require far more subtle ship choice and loadout balancing than you may think (people are already using heatsinks in the latest race to maximum the time they can continue fuel scooping while the fsd charges so they can avoid time costly station refuels and run with smaller fuel tanks to maximise jump range).

 

[Thatchinho]

I just wish the effect was more scientific.

The "runaway" ramping-up of speed we experience (typically when we get under 6 seconds of arrival of our destination) is not proportionally based on real physics (yes, the FSD is imaginary "faster than light" tech, so there's no reason it has to be based on realistic sub-light physics.)

Also, you can go from being at an uncontrollable speed but then slow down while still approaching a planet (without ever entering it's atmosphere,) - what really should happen is you should continue to accelerate as long as you're approaching the planet.

But then again, it's just a game ;-)

What would be cool is if we could install a second FSD in our ships backwards to give us a way to apply reverse throttle in Supercruise ;-)

o7

Hmm, not sure what’s unscientific about it. Well within the sci-fi context set anyway.

You don’t get a ramping up of speed, it’s just an illusory effect, not a 'real' one. You're actually slowing down. All that's happening is that you're decelerating at a rate which is much less than what's practical/comfortable. The illusion is due to how the amount of your view an object occupies changes with distance, which itself changes with distance. That's all pretty real physics.

To illustrate, I've prepared this:

In each of those scenarios, the horizontal arrow represents the planet, the vertical arrow represents movement at a fixed velocity for a set time (or movement of a fixed distance), and the partial cricles represent field of view. Solid lines represent the start position, dotted lines represent the end position. Additional lines in the bottom right diagram will be explained further down.

Note that the scale is different for the 'Far' diagram, but the distance travelled is still the same as in all the other diagrams.

So, travelling at a fixed speed, for a fixed time (or distance), we can see:

a. at long distance, the change in the field of view occupied per unit time will be negligible.
b, at a medium distance, it will still barely be noticeable.
c. treating the body as a disc, at close distance, the change will be noticeable
d. when treating the body as a sphere, the change at short distance will be much more extreme - see red dotted partial circle for roughly where full field of view will be occupied by the planet, and note it's just over half of the distance being traveled in each scenario.

In other words, traveling at constant speed, towards a planet, the size of it from your perspective will barely change initially, increase gradually before increasing exponentially as you get close to the planet. This would make it seem that you're accelerating towards the planet.


To illustrate, further lets consider what the effects of the speeds traveled at in SC mean in real terms, and relate it to the diagram.

1c = 3x10^8 m/s

Earth Diameter = 12,742 Km

In other words, travelling at 1c you cross a distance of 23.5 Earth diameters every second.

The Earth-Moon distance is 30.2 Earth diameters for reference.

If we treat the diagram as Earth, in the 'far' diagram, the distance is only 10 Earth Diameters from the surface.

Travelling at a constant 1c, going from the start of the 'far' diagram to the point of the Earth completely filling the field of view in the last diagram, would take 0.4 seconds.

Consider now what speed you're travelling at when you hit the 6 seconds mark. It'll vary by exact scenario but I just checked for a 1st planet approx 600ls from the main star and I was travelling at over 20c when hitting the 6 seconds mark.

At that speed, going from the start of the 'far' diagram to the point of the Earth completely filling the field of view in the last diagram, would take 0.02 seconds. All that's at a steady speed. Now consider what would happen if being accelerated, particularly if the rate of acceleration was increasing as you approached a planet.

Long story short, if you were flying straight towards a planet at SC speeds and started being accelerated, you'd be pancaked before you knew about it.

 

[ZeroAi]

@ZeroAi : read the post of @Thatchinho above again. Your speed (as measured in m/s or %c) does not increase when you approach a gravity well. What does decrease, though, is the speed your FSD can handle - the higher the gravitic potential (more likely, the gradient), the lower the speed your FSD can handle. At 75% throttle, your FSD can adjust to any changes in the gravitic gradient as you approach your selected target. Approch faster than that, and you'll be running faster than your FSD can brake. Again, not because you accelerate, but because the "grip"/"traction" of your FSD decreases.

+1

Great explanation :-D

I think this is a good reason to allow us to install a second smaller FSD in reverse to assist with braking ;-)

Thanks again o7

 

[ZeroAi]

Hmm, not sure what’s unscientific about it. Well within the sci-fi context set anyway.

You don’t get a ramping up of speed, it’s just an illusory effect, not a 'real' one. You're actually slowing down. All that's happening is that you're decelerating at a rate which is much less than what's practical/comfortable. The illusion is due to how the amount of your view an object occupies changes with distance, which itself changes with distance. That's all pretty real physics.

To illustrate, I've prepared this:

View attachment 151918

In each of those scenarios, the horizontal arrow represents the planet, the vertical arrow represents movement at a fixed velocity for a set time (or movement of a fixed distance), and the partial cricles represent field of view. Solid lines represent the start position, dotted lines represent the end position. Additional lines in the bottom right diagram will be explained further down.

Note that the scale is different for the 'Far' diagram, but the distance travelled is still the same as in all the other diagrams.

So, travelling at a fixed speed, for a fixed time (or distance), we can see:

a. at long distance, the change in the field of view occupied per unit time will be negligible.
b, at a medium distance, it will still barely be noticeable.
c. treating the body as a disc, at close distance, the change will be noticeable
d. when treating the body as a sphere, the change at short distance will be much more extreme - see red dotted partial circle for roughly where full field of view will be occupied by the planet, and note it's just over half of the distance being traveled in each scenario.

In other words, traveling at constant speed, towards a planet, the size of it from your perspective will barely change initially, increase gradually before increasing exponentially as you get close to the planet. This would make it seem that you're accelerating towards the planet.


To illustrate, further lets consider what the effects of the speeds traveled at in SC mean in real terms, and relate it to the diagram.

1c = 3x10^8 m/s

Earth Diameter = 12,742 Km

In other words, travelling at 1c you cross a distance of 23.5 Earth diameters every second.

The Earth-Moon distance is 30.2 Earth diameters for reference.

If we treat the diagram as Earth, in the 'far' diagram, the distance is only 10 Earth Diameters from the surface.

Travelling at a constant 1c, going from the start of the 'far' diagram to the point of the Earth completely filling the field of view in the last diagram, would take 0.4 seconds.

Consider now what speed you're travelling at when you hit the 6 seconds mark. It'll vary by exact scenario but I just checked for a 1st planet approx 600ls from the main star and I was travelling at over 20c when hitting the 6 seconds mark.

At that speed, going from the start of the 'far' diagram to the point of the Earth completely filling the field of view in the last diagram, would take 0.02 seconds. All that's at a steady speed. Now consider what would happen if being accelerated, particularly if the rate of acceleration was increasing as you approached a planet.

Long story short, if you were flying straight towards a planet at SC speeds and started being accelerated, you'd be pancaked before you knew about it.

Thanks for your reply.

In any game that simulates realistic sub-light space travel, you'll find your speed increases as you approach a planet with no thrust, or forward thrust, assuming you're ship is not being affected by another gravity well (like a star.)

This isn't always how the FSD works, so I find it counter intuitive.

But like you said, it's "Sci Fi." and as another CMDR posted, the FSD loses it's ability to "brake" over 75% thrust:

What does decrease, though, is the speed your FSD can handle - the higher the gravitic potential (more likely, the gradient), the lower the speed your FSD can handle. At 75% throttle, your FSD can adjust to any changes in the gravitic gradient as you approach your selected target. Approch faster than that, and you'll be running faster than your FSD can brake. Again, not because you accelerate, but because the "grip"/"traction" of your FSD decreases.

As far as your information about perceived speed, I hear what you're saying but I wasn't alluding to my perception but do appreciate you sharing the info here with us.