General / Off-Topic Recycle or Die! (the elite environmental thread)

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The re-emergence of extremists binge drinking from fascist goblets of ideas and language was enabled after the biggest global heist in history, undertaken 2008 and still ongoing. Another aspect is the absence of a true humanist education, one that would, naturally, prohibit the development of racist ideologies, or bible thumpers and their disciples.

"Or have we eaten on the insane root
That takes the reason prisoner?"
Macbeth, 1.3

The rhetoric used is always the same, whether in Europe or the US. More leaders emerged as autocrats or pseudo-democrats, enabling right wing terror, and feeding the public with fear and their relentless poison of hatred. They constantly attempt to normalize their appearance in society, camouflage themselves as critical thinking.

The way they react to the righteous actions of a 16 years old girl is testimony of their own socialisation and ethic.

I remember what my Grandmother, who survived the fascists, told me about them.

Translation would be down the lines of:

"They would strap you in a chair, hammer nails in your head, smile at you and ask if you feel better now. It is useless to reason with them, they are convinced that they have eaten from the flesh of wisdom, are the Enlightened, chosen to rule the world for the betterment of humanity. They will point their sticky fingers at you, proclaiming you to be what they are themselves, brainless thugs."

This still holds true today!

Speaking of fascism, you do know that fascism requires a totalitarian state with absolute power, which is the exact opposite of what most right wing inclined people want, which is less state, with less power, and more individual freedoms. On the other hand, ironically the people always ready to pull the "you're a fascist" card are precisely the most prone to desire an authoritarian state to enforce their ideas.
 
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You couldn't have chosen a worse example for a "tight oligopoly"... I just opened a online used car website to count the number of different car brands for sale, it was over 80... If we remove the more niche brands, we still end up with well over 20 "mainstream" brands spanning 3 continents.

It seems to me that the customer still has some choice in the matter, and can entrust (or not) his hard owned cash to whatever manufacturer he chooses.

The car market and the used car market are not the same. They do overlap occasionaly, but differ greatly when it comes to regulation, sellers, etc. A single product can be traded on more than one market. Apart from that, the used car market makes absolutely zero sense in the context of our discussion since it does zero R&D. It just resells existing products.

The car market is the prime example of a tight oligopoly. There are even more attributes, but I don't want to go to deep into macroeconomics.

I am one of those, and yes I do have to deliver what the customer wanted if I expect to get paid.

Interesting, if I'd do what the customer wants I'd probably do double the work for half the price. Scopecreep is a ...

No, they became more energy efficient because customers want to spend less on their electricity bill. When I buy a new fridge I go for max energy efficiency want to save money on my bills, not because I give a toss about what the government wants.

Cool, and the max energy efficiency would still be bad, if it weren't regulated. Whether you give a toss about what the government wants or not is completely irrelevant, you're not that important. The producer of said household appliances on the opposite do very much give a toss about what the government wants, or else they go out of business fast or need to sell their stock abroad.

Indeed R&D is not directly tied to money, but like everything else it is far more efficient in the private sector. You see the push to strive for efficiency comes a lot quicker when you got your own finite money on the line to achieve goals (private sector), as opposed to having an infinite stream of someone else's money (state). Even NASA, probably one the the best state owned institutions in the whole world, with some of the best minds on the planet working there, was beaten by SpaceX, a much, much younger private company at coming up with a way to make space launches magnitudes cheaper.

You're half right and half wrong here.

Private companies can definitely amass the funds and necessary minds to make significant progress, IF there's a realistic prospect of profiting from that progress in the short or medium term. Most companies can simply not afford to do basic research and most of those who do, do so in cooperation with institutions of the respective nation(s) they're operating in.

Don't get me wrong, what SpaceX did is awesome, but what led to it's sucess is mainly Elon Musks financial power, patience and seventy years of prior experience in space travel thanks to the NASA. To say, that NASA was 'beaten' by SpaceX is like saying that Tesla or Edison were beaten by Zuse. It's debatable about whether SpaceX gets subsidized by the US government for strategic reasons like Boeing (and respectively Airbus by the EU). Dividing politics and economy is not that easy. Both need each other.

Take for example fusion, because you mentioned it in a previous post. There's a reason why the ITER, the Wendelstein 7X and all the other test reactors aren't in private hand. No company in the world has the necessary funds to undertake research projects of such a scale. The invisible hand of the market doesn't think in terms that long, rather it doesn't think at all.

If you expect any kind of effective solution to climate issues (or any serious issues) to be put forward from the governments of any country, you might as well make your peace right now with the alleged end of the world.

Pressure from the public will sooner or later lead to the government accepting and implementing pragmatic solutions. Activism is a big part of that. I don't like Greta Thunberg either, because her whole demeanor feels just unsympathetic and too much focused on generating outrage. But climate change is an existential threat to our societies, even if we don't die out or revert back to the stone ages and it's undoubtly Thunbergs right to promote her views. A large part of the reason why we have this problem in the first place are certain companies of the private sector like Exxon which held back scientific studies and results in order to protect their business interests.

Look, if I'd see the cost of destroying our environment reflected in prices, I would without a doubt believe you that the private sector scrambles to find a solution to climate change and the sustainability problem. But that's not the case and the only entities powerful enough to counteract that are the nationstates. The companies will hardly limit themselves and I'm not believing that we'll make some magic major breakthrough in fusion in the next 10 years, that'll solve all our energy problems.

@Becks, out of curiosity, you don't happen to be a bureaucrat (work in the government) do you?

Nope.
 
If you want to support the climate, buy locally produced products, push your congress rep. To support laws that allow people to grow food in their gardens, and collect water without being punished, push to clean up rivers, the amount of garbage floating in most rivers is astonishing grotesque. If we could get that through it would be a great start.
 
For a teenager missing a few months of school, I find that it's a great success.

The 16-year-old Swede becomes the youngest laureate of this distinction, awarded since 1927 by the American magazine.

Greta.jpg
 
Indeed R&D is not directly tied to money, but like everything else it is far more efficient in the private sector. You see the push to strive for efficiency comes a lot quicker when you got your own finite money on the line to achieve goals (private sector), as opposed to having an infinite stream of someone else's money (state).

And with all these discussions, reality inevitably deviates from theory. Yes, in theory the private sector spends its own money and is driven by a desire to create (long-term and stable) profits. The US car industry is an excellent example of how that is not how reality works. The financial sector is another (too big to fail, thank you very much :) ). I've worked for government, semi-government and private sector in four different sectors (healthcare, education, IT and local IRS) and the notion that in the private sector management is more efficient because they care about not wasting 'their own money' is just laughable. That notion only exist in small (and arguably medium-sized) enterprises where management actually does has its own money on the line. The more you scale upwards the more that line is blurred, until you reach the ultimate goal where losses are socialized and profits are privatized (eg. banking). Middle management at Google had exactly the same mentality as middle management at the Ministry of Finance or the in-patient facility I worked: try to hit some abstract targets you received from upstairs, without any insight into how this connects with any long-term vision or strategy, while going through the day hoping for as little drama as possible while doing a good enough job to not get fired. That is it.

Neither corporation nor government has the innate tendency to 'do the right thing'. Instead, power simply seeks more power; money seeks more money. A government that is not powerful enough will be unable to prevent corporate corruption. A government that is too powerful will steamroll over its own people. Finding a stable balance is the challenge, and the coming decades will reveal whether we succeeded or not. Right now we seem to be... struggling.
 
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I don't need to work in Government to see that it is inherently wasteful. On the other hand, if you only work in Government you don't have a clue beyond the hypothetical how the private sector works. Those who isolate themselves in the ivory towers of government or strangely enough academia are pretty much oblivious to reality on the outside of their cloistered professions.

Case in point: @askavir was drawing attention to the fact that the government has what essentially amounts to an infinite supply of money because all they have to do is squeeze the populace for more, as opposed to a private sector company not enjoying the same kind of resources.
 
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I don't need to work in Government to see that it is inherently wasteful. On the other hand, if you only work in Government you don't have a clue beyond the hypothetical how the private sector works. Those who isolate themselves in the ivory towers of government or strangely enough academia are pretty much oblivious to reality on the outside of their cloistered professions.

Good thing then that, unlike you, I actually have experience both in private and (semi-) government across multiple sectors in multiple countries. If you think I had to work harder or be less wasteful at Google than academia you're mistaken. If you think academia has 'infinite money' they can 'squeeze from the populace' at will you only show you know little about that either.
 
Good thing then that, unlike you, I actually have experience both in private and (semi-) government across multiple sectors in multiple countries. If you think I had to work harder or be less wasteful at Google than academia you're mistaken. If you think academia has 'infinite money' they can 'squeeze from the populace' at will you only show you know little about that either.
For starters, congratulations on choosing one of the biggest tech companies in the world (if not the biggest) that arguably pulls the strings the world dances to represent experience with the private sector in your argument. And secondly, my point about academia wasn't to conflate their financial powers with that of government, which should have been perfectly obvious from my post, but rather that they exist, similar to government employees, in a sheltered little bubble.

Edit: and sorry for triggering you. I know how proud you academic types are, and how easily you take affront at that background being challenged:)
 
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Case in point: @askavir was drawing attention to the fact that the government has what essentially amounts to an infinite supply of money because all they have to do is squeeze the populace for more, as opposed to a private sector company not enjoying the same kind of resources.
In France, a lot of financial aid is granted to private companies.

And these companies do not always respect their commitments with the government.

These companies agree to receive taxpayer money (especially american companies) and then forget that they owe counterparties .
 
And with all these discussions, reality inevitably deviates from theory. Yes, in theory the private sector spends its own money and is driven by a desire to create (long-term and stable) profits. The US car industry is an excellent example of how that is not how reality works. The financial sector is another (too big to fail, thank you very much :) ). I've worked for government, semi-government and private sector in four different sectors (healthcare, education, IT and local IRS) and the notion that in the private sector management is more efficient because they care about not wasting 'their own money' is just laughable. That notion only exist in small (and arguably medium-sized) enterprises where management actually does has its own money on the line. The more you scale upwards the more that line is blurred, until you reach the ultimate goal where losses are socialized and profits are privatized (eg. banking). Middle management at Google had exactly the same mentality as middle management at the Ministry of Finance or the in-patient facility I worked: try to hit some abstract targets you received from upstairs, without any insight into how this connects with any long-term vision or strategy, while going through the day hoping for as little drama as possible while doing a good enough job to not get fired. That is it.

Neither corporation nor government has the innate tendency to 'do the right thing'. Instead, power simply seeks more power; money seeks more money. A government that is not powerful enough will be unable to prevent corporate corruption. A government that is too powerful will steamroll over its own people. Finding a stable balance is the challenge, and the coming decades will reveal whether we succeeded or not. Right now we seem to be... struggling.

The lines are quite blured between sectors. I've worked in private, government owned private and full government (Navy) and local public sector.

Private and government owned private are the same, except for where the profit ends up. Gov. was perhaps a more demanding owner. +10% EBITA or cuts.
Local public is just about doing the best you can, with limited funds. More focus on LEAN than anywhere else I have worked.
The Navy is the Navy. Practice for war and let someone else worry about finances. :)
 
Good thing then that, unlike you, I actually have experience both in private and (semi-) government across multiple sectors in multiple countries. If you think I had to work harder or be less wasteful at Google than academia you're mistaken. If you think academia has 'infinite money' they can 'squeeze from the populace' at will you only show you know little about that either.

Tech giants and baking make up to less than 0.1% of the private sector. The overwhelming majority are small and medium businesses, who not want to be efficient, they absolutely need it to stay ahead.

The state can literally squeeze more bucks from the populace at will to cover losses and waste, in fact it happens nearly every year down here in the beachy rectangle I live in, most in government don't give a poopoo if the money is well spent or not, it's always "someone else's" money anyway, and it's not like the state ever risks closing shop and people losing their jobs, while the private sector (even the 0.1 percenters of the private sector you mentioned) still have to satisfy their costumers to be able to turn a profit to keep money coming in.
 
In France, a lot of financial aid is granted to private companies.

And these companies do not always respect their commitments with the government.

These companies agree to receive taxpayer money (especially american companies) and then forget that they owe counterparties .

It should not. Taxpayers money should never be used to finance or rescue the private sector, unless it is providing a service for the state, but in that case its not really "financing", its "paying" for a service. This is actually a form of the waste of money I complain about in the state.

Financing private sector companies subverts the principle of free competition, and just ends up making poorly run companies survive artificially and occupy market space that otherwise could be occupied by better companies in their place. If a private company (regardless of being a shirt shop or a bank) is doomed to fail, then let if fail, so that better companies can rise in their place.
 
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