A Simple Solution to Combat Logging

[lenna]

What is one of the most qouted rules here? NEVER fly without a rebuy!

Even with the Rebuy in the account that does not mean that they can continue to pay it indefinitley.

Any loss of rebuy will eat in to available funds and may restrict your options going forward - a player gets killed enough times then they may have no choice but to fly without rebuy.

Honestly, the claims by some that rebuy is inconsequential just shows a lack of respect both to the game and other players.

 

[Eliza]

Even with the Rebuy in the account that does not mean that they can continue to pay it indefinitley.

Any loss of rebuy will eat in to available funds and may restrict your options going forward - a player gets killed enough times then they may have no choice but to fly without rebuy.

In that case you would find yourself in a sidey. There you won't need a rebuy. Or switch modes to stock up your credits.

Ignoring that is like running against a wall and complaining it hurts and after that take another try against that wall. Simply Stubburn to stay polite and then again the rebuy is justified.

 

[galahad2069]

You might be lucky in that you have never encountered issues with either your Operating System, Hardware, Electricity Supply, or Internet/Network connection but if there is even the slightest chance of this occuring with any given player then your proposal is too punitive and should never be implemented.


Not really even close to being relevant - you are talking about adding "deliberate" measures which runs counter to reasonable expectations.

I point back to my counter proposal - accumulate decaying points for PvP combat logging events (deliberate or otherwise) that will restrict either mode availability OR Open mode spawning rules. Not a true shadow ban though, unless FD find that sufficient evidence that the person accumulating points is actually at deliberate fault. Choice of ISP or Energy provider does not count.

All I said was perfectly relevant, especially in the context of my previous posts.

But tell me: if the instadeath system I mentioned had been implemented from the very beginning, how many times would you have been sent to the rebuy screen because of that?

 

[Northpin]

'Death' is meaningless without the penalty.

Death IS the penalty. Or at least it should be.
But in ED death itself is of no concern at all.
It's everything that comes after death, the thing that make some commanders to slip through and pull the cord.

My CMDR...

No offence Morbad, i really admire your ED knowledge, your immersed way of play and generally your ingame skills, but you are really THE exception not the norm.

As a side note - i always wondered why, in a game that doesnt allow cargo storage on the grounds of future game manipulation, we are allowed to carry exploration data and bounties like... forever.

 

[Brrokk]

Oh well, I think this thread demonstrates conclusively that there is no "Simple Solution to Combat Logging"!

 

[Eliza]

Oh well, I think this thread demonstrates conclusively that there is no "Simple Solution to Combat Logging"!

Someone stated an Einstein-quote im this thread before: simple sollutions for a complex issue are...simple and wrong.

 

[lenna]

In that case you would find yourself in a sidey. There you won't need a rebuy. Or switch modes to stock up your credits.

Sorry but you are systematically showing disrespect for both the game and other players and in doing so proving my point - The issue in question is not just about rebuy, though as I have pointed out it is not an insignificant factor that can be reasonably dismissed out of hand.

 

[lenna]

Oh well, I think this thread demonstrates conclusively that there is no "Simple Solution to Combat Logging"!

You are right - there are no simple solutions, but there are fair ways to deal with the concerns and insta-death on disconnect (regardless of the circumstances) is not one of them.

 

[Eliza]

Sorry but you are systematically showing disrespect for both the game and other players and in doing so proving my point - The issue in question is not just about rebuy, though as I have pointed out it is not an insignificant factor that can be reasonably dismissed out of hand.

I disrespect the game and the players? Yeah your right. I disrespect it for 2k+hours.
No...I came to one conclusion, not only regarding Elite, but live in general: Don't bother about things that are out of your power to change. And one of these is c-logging.

 

[lenna]

I disrespect the game and the players? Yeah your right. I disrespect it for 2k+hours.
No...I came to one conclusion, not only regarding Elite, but live in general: Don't bother about things that are out of your power to change. And one of these is c-logging.

I think we may be arguing different points...

Whether we are talking about mission cargo, rebuy, exploration data, mined cargo, bounties, SLF pilots, or anything else that is lost on death they ALL matter as they represent time lost in-game ergo death has consequences despite the protestations of some to the contrary. Anyone that claims these are inconsequential are showing a lack of respect to both the game and other players - it does not matter how many hours you allegedly (or actually) put into the game - it is that simple.

This ONLY has relevance in the context of this thread due to the proposal of at least one individual that any connection disruption during (at least PvP) combat should result in insta-death for the person being disconnected regardless of whether it is under their control or not. Such a solution is overly punitive since there are plenty of cases around the globe where internet connections and/or electricity supplies are not necessarily reliable and people should not be penalised via instadeath for incidents due to such failures of service OR other more universally applicable reasons outside of their control.

If you are not personally worried about c-logging, then you should not care how the concern is addressed. However, there is perhaps good reason to address c-logging incidents in a fair and reasonable manner - my counter proposal of using an Account based points system akin to Character based notoriety that affects mode choice availability and/or spawning in Open is perhaps one of the fairer potential solutions.

 

[Morbad]

The game's lack of consequences cuts both ways and, IMO, is the ultimate disrespect to players. As long as everything is trivial, all that time and effort we put into our characters is reflected far less than it could otherwise be.

Death IS the penalty. Or at least it should be.
But in ED death itself is of no concern at all.
It's everything that comes after death, the thing that make some commanders to slip through and pull the cord.

How do you separate 'death' from what comes after for the purpose of this discussion?

And no one makes anyone pull the cord. That's a conscious choice to ignore the rules of the game. Everyone has different opinions of how the game should work or what the ideal rules should be, which is precisely why objective rules need effective enforcement. A rule that cannot be enforced is more of a suggestion, in practice.

 

[Eliza]

I think we may be arguing different points...

Whether we are talking about mission cargo, rebuy, exploration data, mined cargo, bounties, SLF pilots, or anything else that is lost on death they ALL matter as they represent time lost in-game ergo death has consequences despite the protestations of some to the contrary. Anyone that claims these are inconsequential are showing a lack of respect to both the game and other players - it does not matter how many hours you allegedly (or actually) put into the game - it is that simple.

This ONLY has relevance in the context of this thread due to the proposal of at least one individual that any connection disruption during (at least PvP) combat should result in insta-death for the person being disconnected regardless of whether it is under their control or not. Such a solution is overly punitive since there are plenty of cases around the globe where internet connections and/or electricity supplies are not necessarily reliable and people should not be penalised via instadeath for incidents due to such failures of service OR other more universally applicable reasons outside of their control.

If you are not personally worried about c-logging, then you should not care how the concern is addressed. However, there is perhaps good reason to address c-logging incidents in a fair and reasonable manner - my counter proposal of using an Account based points system akin to Character based notoriety that affects mode choice availability and/or spawning in Open is perhaps one of the fairer potential solutions.

Maybe you didn't noticed it but I'm not on one side regarding punishment of c-logging.
I see BOTH sides. For me c-logging in general is an absolute no-go and even 10B credits in data does NOT justify such a behavior. And the argument about that poor explorer with his crappy connection doesn't count as well. Frontier is VERY generous of restoring the commander in those cases even when the loss occured on lack of attention of the player.
Again: Change Modes if you fear a massive loss. C-log punishment will not come, regardless it's mechanics

 

[galahad2069]

I think we may be arguing different points...

Whether we are talking about mission cargo, rebuy, exploration data, mined cargo, bounties, SLF pilots, or anything else that is lost on death they ALL matter as they represent time lost in-game ergo death has consequences despite the protestations of some to the contrary. Anyone that claims these are inconsequential are showing a lack of respect to both the game and other players - it does not matter how many hours you allegedly (or actually) put into the game - it is that simple.

This ONLY has relevance in the context of this thread due to the proposal of at least one individual that any connection disruption during (at least PvP) combat should result in insta-death for the person being disconnected regardless of whether it is under their control or not. Such a solution is overly punitive since there are plenty of cases around the globe where internet connections and/or electricity supplies are not necessarily reliable and people should not be penalised via instadeath for incidents due to such failures of service OR other more universally applicable reasons outside of their control.

If you are not personally worried about c-logging, then you should not care how the concern is addressed. However, there is perhaps good reason to address c-logging incidents in a fair and reasonable manner - my counter proposal of using an Account based points system akin to Character based notoriety that affects mode choice availability and/or spawning in Open is perhaps one of the fairer potential solutions.

1. Your counter proposal would not do anything to solve the problem that made me suggest the instadeath system.
2. You are talking about power outages and things like that, but haven't replied to my direct question yet: how many genuine disconnections have you had during ongoing pvp combat so far?

 

[lenna]

1. Your counter proposal would not do anything to solve the problem that made me suggest the instadeath system.

It may actually limit the occurrences of it because those that regularly engage in Combat Logging or regularly have disconnections for other reasons should at least not spawn with those with more reliable facilities or those that do not engage in deliberate Combat Logging. The points system would also give FD an indicator as to who needs to be pro-actively investigated/monitored specifically for Combat logging. The only thing is that the rate of decay of the points would need to be carefully assessed and appropriately balanced.

2. You are talking about power outages and things like that, but haven't replied to my direct question yet: how many disconnections have you had during ongoing pvp combat so far?

Personally, none because I don't regularly engage in PvP BUT that does not change the simple fact that I know such occurrences can and do occur. I have had cases of ISP connection resets and outages, computer resets while in applications of one sort or another, power outages, and general system crash issues at one point or another and they are anything but infrequent enough to dismiss the possibility of them happening to anyone else at an inconvenient moment.

I do know there are regions of the world with far less stable facilities than we have in the UK too, and not everywhere in the UK has a reasonable enough internet facility. Further more, there is no precedent in on-line gaming for the overly punitive approach like you are suggesting.

 

[lenna]

Maybe you didn't noticed it but I'm not on one side regarding punishment of c-logging.
I see BOTH sides. For me c-logging in general is an absolute no-go and even 10B credits in data does NOT justify such a behavior. And the argument about that poor explorer with his crappy connection doesn't count as well. Frontier is VERY generous of restoring the commander in those cases even when the loss occured on lack of attention of the player.
Again: Change Modes if you fear a massive loss. C-log punishment will not come, regardless it's mechanics

Again - it is not specifically about me or what I might or might not fear but rather about being generally against implementing overly draconian measures.

The whole thing about c-logging is IMO blown out of proportions seemingly because some can not accept FD's definition of what does or does not constitute combat logging. Ultimately, the point is not about whether or not "deliberate c-logging" (as FD define it) is justified or not but rather the fact that there is no way of determining whether any given combat logging incident is truly deliberate on a case by case basis.

If people truly object to combat logging (of any kind) - block them, report them - job done, move on without them in your universe.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

only data is relevant to this discussion in my mind because only data would get to such a huge sum as to be too draconian to lose to a bad connection.

but how often is anyone in actual immediate danger when they disconnect outside of combat? if you're aren't anywhere near combat, then you can disappear if you disconnect. or maybe if you're playing solo. otherwise, your ship should stay in the instance. the people that clog most are the people that already wreck elite all the time anyway.

 

[Eliza]

Again - it is not specifically about me or what I might or might not fear but rather about being generally against implementing overly draconian measures.

The whole thing about c-logging is IMO blown out of proportions seemingly because some can not accept FD's definition of what does or does not constitute combat logging. Ultimately, the point is not about whether or not "deliberate c-logging" (as FD define it) is justified or not but rather the fact that there is no way of determining whether any given combat logging incident is truly deliberate on a case by case basis.

If people truly object to combat logging (of any kind) - block them, report them - job done, move on without them in your universe.

Oh wow!!! Then I misinterpreted you the whole time. A serious language-barrier on my side I guess. My cincere apologies!

 

[lenna]

only data is relevant to this discussion in my mind because only data would get to such a huge sum as to be too draconian to lose to a bad connection.

It is not about monetary gain IMO as much as time lost - for some that would be data, for others it could be something else - ultimately, it does not matter what aspect we are losing on death it would account for lost/wasted gaming time regardless.

but how often is anyone in actual immediate danger when they disconnect outside of combat? if you're aren't anywhere near combat, then you can disappear if you disconnect. or maybe if you're playing solo. otherwise, your ship should stay in the instance. the people that clog most are the people that already wreck elite all the time anyway.

Irrelevant to the topic IMO - the fact is outside influences that could induce combat logging are sufficiently random and notionally unpredictable in nature that the punitive measure of insta-death on disconnect (regardless of the circumstances) is not justifiable.

 

[galahad2069]

It may actually limit the occurrences of it because those that regularly engage in Combat Logging or regularly have disconnections for other reasons should at least not spawn with those with more reliable facilities or those that do not engage in deliberate Combat Logging. The points system would also give FD an indicator as to who needs to be pro-actively investigated/monitored specifically for Combat logging. The only thing is that the rate of decay of the points would need to be carefully assessed and appropriately balanced.

No, no, it's not that. My main problem with the current system (and with your proposal as well) is not what other people do. The problem is that I might have a disconnection during combat, which can result in other people accusing me of combat logging. And the significance of the possible loss of reputation far outweighs that of the loss of a ship or a few credits in an online multiplayer game.

You know, there's no shame whatsoever in losing a fight because the opponent was more experienced, more skilled, better outfitted, or because he outsmarted you even if it's only some fishy ingame mechanics. There's no shame in losing because of circumstances outside your control like bugs, bad game design elements, or a power outage, for that matter. But winning (or just escaping the consequences of a defeat) because you were cheating, now that's a shame.

Personally, none because I don't regularly engage in PvP BUT that does not change the simple fact that I know such occurrences can and do occur. I have had cases of ISP connection resets and outages, computer resets while in applications of one sort or another, power outages, and general system crash issues at one point or another and they are anything but infrequent enough to dismiss the possibility of them happening to anyone else at an inconvenient moment.

I do know there are regions of the world with far less stable facilities than we have in the UK too, and not everywhere in the UK has a reasonable enough internet facility. Further more, there is no precedent in on-line gaming for the overly punitive approach like you are suggesting.

Okay, then I (as someone who has spent much more time in PvP) can assure you that these moments of genuine connection losses during combat are extremely rare, so especially if you aren't PvPing very often, the chances of you ever experiencing such a moment is minuscule. Everyone can afford a rebuy, even lots of rebuys. Your reputation you can lose only once.

 

[Rat Catcher]

No, no, it's not that. My main problem with the current system (and with your proposal as well) is not what other people do. The problem is that I might have a disconnection during combat, which can result in other people accusing me of combat logging. And the significance of the possible loss of reputation far outweighs that of the loss of a ship or a few credits in an online multiplayer game.

So, essentially you are firmly advocating extreme measures for every player solely as you do not wish your reputation to be stained. Did I read that correctly?