Have we been lied to?

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Burke

B
bitstorm said:
Geo scan aside why does the framerate affect my mouse movement speed in the FSS?
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If i had to guess i would say the game and server have a "tick" that syncs up in some way and its tied to FPS. Thats how its worked in a number of first person shooters, fallout 76 for one which meant the higher your FPS the faster you could move in game. There are a few others.
 

M00ka

M00ka
Darkfyre99 said:
Ugh... this is driving me nuts!

Frame rate is not the same as GPU utilization. Frame rate can be used as a shorthand for GPU utilization, relative to the refresh rate of your monitor or VR headset, but its not the same. Frame rate is how many frames per second your GPU can output to the visual device of your choice. GPU utilization how much of a graphic card's processing power is currently being used.

GPU utilization will affect frame rate, naturally. The more work a GPU has to do, the fewer frames it can churn out in a second. Elite: Dangerous' planet generation algorithm uses the GPU, rather than the CPU, to create a planet's surface. The amount of time it takes to generate the surface depends upon how much "free resources" the GPU has. A GPU that's able to output 300 fps to a monitor that refreshes at 60 hz is basically being used at 20% capacity. So it has a lot of "free cycles" to use for other things... cycles that are basically wasted on unused frames.

So why does a video card that has its frame rate capped at 60 fps take longer to generate a planet surface if that card is being used at 20% capacity? Because the purpose of frame rate capping is to artificially limit GPU utilization in order to reduce energy consumption, reduce heat, and/or reduce fan noise. Some people think it will also reduce screen tearing, but that's what v-sync is for. There are two ways to cap frame rates that don't involve 3rd party software: the video card, and the game itself. In the case of the former, the video card simply discards calls to the GPU if its too early to draw the next frame. If its the game itself, then it won't send calls to the GPU until its time to draw the next frame.

Given that frame rate capping does affect planetary generation speed, I suspect that like most modern games on the market, Frontier is using modern video cards' native frame rate capping ability in its Cobra engine. After all, why reinvent the wheel? But because they also use the GPU for surface generation, rather than the CPU, there's an unexpected side effect.
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Aww why did you have to ruin a perfectly boring argument by posting that. Up to your post is was a typical DD argument, two people both refusing to acknowledge the other could be right or they may be wrong, endless stating the same thing over and over again. Yes it totally destroyed this thread, but who cares, when they get the thread closed they will just take their argument to another thread and the cycle will begin again.
 

Darkfyre99

Darkfyre99
M00ka said:
Aww why did you have to ruin a perfectly boring argument by posting that. Up to your post is was a typical DD argument, two people both refusing to acknowledge the other could be right or they may be wrong, endless stating the same thing over and over again. Yes it totally destroyed this thread, but who cares, when they get the thread closed they will just take their argument to another thread and the cycle will begin again.
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Oh... sorry. My bad. :p

Ahem...

@op: Weren't lied to. No promises were made. Ten year plan. That other project won't ever get completed. :D
 

bitstorm

bitstorm
Darkfyre99 said:
Ugh... this is driving me nuts!

Frame rate is not the same as GPU utilization. Frame rate can be used as a shorthand for GPU utilization, relative to the refresh rate of your monitor or VR headset, but its not the same. Frame rate is how many frames per second your GPU can output to the visual device of your choice. GPU utilization how much of a graphic card's processing power is currently being used.

GPU utilization will affect frame rate, naturally. The more work a GPU has to do, the fewer frames it can churn out in a second. Elite: Dangerous' planet generation algorithm uses the GPU, rather than the CPU, to create a planet's surface. The amount of time it takes to generate the surface depends upon how much "free resources" the GPU has. A GPU that's able to output 300 fps to a monitor that refreshes at 60 hz is basically being used at 20% capacity. So it has a lot of "free cycles" to use for other things... cycles that are basically wasted on unused frames.

So why does a video card that has its frame rate capped at 60 fps take longer to generate a planet surface if that card is being used at 20% capacity? Because the purpose of frame rate capping is to artificially limit GPU utilization in order to reduce energy consumption, reduce heat, and/or reduce fan noise. Some people think it will also reduce screen tearing, but that's what v-sync is for. There are two ways to cap frame rates that don't involve 3rd party software: the video card, and the game itself. In the case of the former, the video card simply discards calls to the GPU if its too early to draw the next frame. If its the game itself, then it won't send calls to the GPU until its time to draw the next frame.

Given that frame rate capping does affect planetary generation speed, I suspect that like most modern games on the market, Frontier is using modern video cards' native frame rate capping ability in its Cobra engine. After all, why reinvent the wheel? But because they also use the GPU for surface generation, rather than the CPU, there's an unexpected side effect.
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Awesome, thanks for that, an actual explanation!

So I now have some questions if this is ok.

We are saying the framerate limit in ED, does not just limit the framerate it literally slows down your GPU? (I mean I'd argue framerate is the wrong term for this if it's the case, or at least add an informational to the interface FSS)

Does this also apply to the vsync options? Enabling vsync also breaks/fixes my mouse speed, I haven't tested geo but I'm gonna assume the same. Also has it always been the case that enabling vsync essentially kneecapped your GPU? My understanding is having framerate and processing independent was a problem solved a very long time ago.

You say that ED is likely using "native framerate capping, after all why reinvent the wheel". So from this I'm going to assume that solving the geo scan is not impossible as claimed? But perhaps a rather significant amount of work?
 

babelfisch

babelfisch
M4st0d0n said:
It's not uncommon in games for server ticks to sync with the client refresh rate. I bet the issue is far less complex than all this terrain generation doo-hoo stuff, and more like a technical debt a skeletal crew has to work around. POIs should have been designed with changes the FSS later introduced already in mind. Ironic to think people used to spot them because they took resource to load before.
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If I understand it correctly you can't place a POI on a planet that isn't generated yet. The other solution would be to have premade planets which doesn't work well in a procedurally generated galaxy with 400 billion stars.
 

-VR- Max Factor

-VR- Max Factor
bitstorm said:
Awesome, thanks for that, an actual explanation!

So I now have some questions if this is ok.

We are saying the framerate limit in ED, does not just limit the framerate it literally slows down your GPU? (I mean I'd argue framerate is the wrong term for this if it's the case, or at least add an informational to the interface FSS)

Does this also apply to the vsync options? Enabling vsync also breaks/fixes my mouse speed, I haven't tested geo but I'm gonna assume the same. Also has it always been the case that enabling vsync essentially kneecapped your GPU? My understanding is having framerate and processing independent was a problem solved a very long time ago.

You say that ED is likely using "native framerate capping, after all why reinvent the wheel". So from this I'm going to assume that solving the geo scan is not impossible as claimed? But perhaps a rather significant amount of work?
Click to expand...
It's funny. I said that right at the beginning.
 

Darkfyre99

Darkfyre99
bitstorm said:
Awesome, thanks for that, an actual explanation!

So I now have some questions if this is ok.

We are saying the framerate limit in ED, does not just limit the framerate it literally slows down your GPU? (I mean I'd argue framerate is the wrong term for this if it's the case, or at least add an informational to the interface FSS)

Does this also apply to the vsync options? Enabling vsync also breaks/fixes my mouse speed, I haven't tested geo but I'm gonna assume the same. Also has it always been the case that enabling vsync essentially kneecapped your GPU? My understanding is having framerate and processing independent was a problem solved a very long time ago.

You say that ED is likely using "native framerate capping, after all why reinvent the wheel". So from this I'm going to assume that solving the geo scan is not impossible as claimed? But perhaps a rather significant amount of work?
Click to expand...
You'll have to wait for a proper answer, I'm afraid. It's time to leave for work, but the short answer is: To the best of my knowledge, it really depends.

Max Factor said:
It's funny. I said that right at the beginning.
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No... you didn't. I knew what you were trying to say, but that's a bit different from what you actually said.
 

-VR- Max Factor

-VR- Max Factor
Darkfyre99 said:
You'll have to wait for a proper answer, I'm afraid. It's time to leave for work, but the short answer is: To the best of my knowledge, it really depends.


No... you didn't. I knew what you were trying to say, but that's a bit different from what you actually said.
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I said forcing your GPU to run a game at 60fps will limit your GPU. Pretty much the same to me. Vsync seem to do the exact same thing for me.
 

JetsonRING

JetsonRING
OP sounds like he or she believes those ads that say "ZERO MONEY DOWN!".
FDev never promised anything, they simply used their marketing expertise to make people think they were being promised something when they weren't. Please show an example of where FDev actually said or printed the words "we promise" in relation to anything having to do with the game.
Anyone who has ever watched a television advertisement knows that what companies offer in their advertising usually has little basis in reality for the common person.
 
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M00ka

M00ka
JetsonRING said:
OP sounds like he or she believes those ads that say "ZERO MONEY DOWN!".
FDev never promised anything, they simply used their marketing expertise to make people think they were being promised something when they weren't. Please show an example of where FDev actually said or printed the words "we promise" in relation to anything having to do with the game.
It's like the whole space-legs thing. Just because FDev said it was something they "would like to do" people keep saying "when are we getting space-legs?". FDev never promised space-legs and if we ever get it, space-legs will be icing on the cake. Would I like to see it? Yes, but I am not holding my breath.
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What the hell are you going on about, this thread is all about frame rates and GPU thingies isn't it?

Nah, just joking (kind of), and well said, too many min-interpret anything FD says to either boost their own argument or to prove someone else's argument is invalid. Lots of selective reading gets done on these here forums .
 

[VR] M4st0d0n

[VR] M4st0d0n
babelfisch said:
If I understand it correctly you can't place a POI on a planet that isn't generated yet. The other solution would be to have premade planets which doesn't work well in a procedurally generated galaxy with 400 billion stars.
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Seems to me that it takes the same time than planets that have been surface mapped ages ago by others. And that's just like a premade.

Development for surface features have been modular, to say the least. I think it's a chicken egg situation. Even a modern potato shouldnt take more than a few sec for a rough normal map and a random number of locations.
 
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