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I think you're being even too kind here. I'd suggest:
(Imagine if Skyrim were like Elite so that every door required lock picking, and 99% of those would have nothing but some junk items behind them.)
FSS - my opinion
- Thread starter [VR] optimal_909
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I think you're being even too kind here. I'd suggest:
(Imagine if Skyrim were like Elite so that every door required lock picking, and 99% of those would have nothing but some junk items behind them.)
Well, are we exploring or travelling? Exploring is science, so every door really is locked or it is not a door.
S
Well, are we exploring or travelling? Exploring is science, so every door really is locked or it is not a door.
If only there were a window in each door...
Trust me, there isn't much science going on when I operate the FSS
(if it were, I would probably still be stuck trying to find my first planet, hehe).Nope, it's just a massive keyboard mash and mousing galore. A true chaotic spectacle. (then I close it and glance in the system map what I found
)Well.. The FSS was interesting at first. Very interesting. I took my time, read the data, and kept a keen eye on the spectrograph. I was expecting strange signals to pop up, leading me on search for mysterious ruins or abandoned settlements down on the barren planet surfaces. But after some time I realized this was not to be. This is a realistic game after all, and most every uninhabited system are void of any artificial constructs(as they should be). The big discoveries are far and few between. And because of this (I now realise) we need a very fast scanning method. The current tool just isn't fast enough, and too cumbersome for the task at hand. This isn't No Man Sky afterall, that throws stuff in your face where ever you turn, till after a few hours you just have had enough
..
Uh. Sorry bout that.. back to the FSS. To me it's become kind of a timesink and a nuisance now.. But only because I have to use it so much, and in such a rushed way.
So here's an idea. What if they massively increased the passive range of the scanners. To, say, 25, 50, or even 100k ls? Then when we arrive in a system, all bodies and signals are automatically discovered and scanned up to that distance. The FSS would still have to be used now and then for very distant/faint objects, but not constantly in every system. I think it would be more appreciated that way?
And instead of just boosting the default scanner, have the extra passive range come from a selection of new ADS modules with varying strengths, based on class-size and quality. That way you'd have to sacrifice an internal slot, add more power draw, and extra weight to get the passive scan.
You travel while exploring, you explore while traveling.Well, are we exploring or travelling? Exploring is science, so every door really is locked or it is not a door.
I think perhaps the issue is less the mechanism although certain elements of ED have always been notorious time sinks (and one gets the feeling that this is entirely the point of the game after a while), but that the issue I think is so LITTLE to find and that means an awful lot of repetition for no 'reward'.
If there were substantially more things to find would the current mechanism matter so much? For instance, should there not be ten or even a hundred times more NSP, biological and geological phenomenon and more besides: crashed ships, crashed alien ships, abandoned bases, abandoned alien structures, (whatever happened to the colony ships), massive mountain ranges, volcanic activity (rivers of lava etc), and so on - the imagination is the limit. If all this travelling and honking and scanning had much more interesting things to find on any given basis would this keep us interested and in doing so mean that we care less about the means to find it?
If there were substantially more things to find would the current mechanism matter so much? For instance, should there not be ten or even a hundred times more NSP, biological and geological phenomenon and more besides: crashed ships, crashed alien ships, abandoned bases, abandoned alien structures, (whatever happened to the colony ships), massive mountain ranges, volcanic activity (rivers of lava etc), and so on - the imagination is the limit. If all this travelling and honking and scanning had much more interesting things to find on any given basis would this keep us interested and in doing so mean that we care less about the means to find it?
Why not have a passive ADS system involving the player somehow? It is a game after all, and we like to do things while playing games. Granted, the FSS seems a lot of busywork especially as it takes us into another screen to work it in. But the ADS did ... nothing. And flying around looking at things without additional aids is just a bit old fashioned - we graduated from that when sunstone was discovered at least 1000 years ago.
That's why I suggest a system that at least require a little bit of effort on the side of the player - getting them to fly around a bit to let the system work efficiently. That way it is not just a one-click dopamine drip-feed. Issue with reinstating something like the old ADS that is it is the same kind of gameplay as instant travel and I-win button mechanics.
S
This discussion keeps recursing into great depths. That's probably more of of a compliment to the participants..
But the only point of issue here is 3-4 people have a problem with the notion that OTHER PEOPLE should have access to a full system map after the honk.
If parties still interested can uproot this issue, everyone is in alignment and people can move on to pure theorycrafting improvements..
considering frontier and guessing the most absolute minimum change ->
taking the concept of the fss and refining it so that the spirit of the feature can be maintained with no mechanical errors ->
completely reinventing it to a better solution.
Im really impressed with such minute analysis and debate to the point "i don't want you to do it". Better to go onwards and upwards ed fantasy.
But the only point of issue here is 3-4 people have a problem with the notion that OTHER PEOPLE should have access to a full system map after the honk.
If parties still interested can uproot this issue, everyone is in alignment and people can move on to pure theorycrafting improvements..
considering frontier and guessing the most absolute minimum change ->
taking the concept of the fss and refining it so that the spirit of the feature can be maintained with no mechanical errors ->
completely reinventing it to a better solution.
Im really impressed with such minute analysis and debate to the point "i don't want you to do it". Better to go onwards and upwards ed fantasy.
Agreed. I just can't bare to go another round of "its a minigame", "no its not."
Speaking personally, my position is not "I don't want other people to have a full system map after the honk." I was convinced long ago that being able to generate system maps instantly is only useful if what you primarily care about are the proverbial rare unicorns, the ones that don't show up on the FSS at all. If all you care about is credits, then the FSS is superior. If you're more interested in planetary exploration, then the FSS is superior. If you're more interested in ephemeral events like planetary alignments and eclipses, then the FSS is superior.
My position has always been that Me, Myself, and I don't want to have the full system map after the honk. The ADS era ruined exploration for me, and I've wanted to explore this galaxy since the Kickstarter. I tried numerous ways to find a way to revive it, but when all I could do in the game is explore systems, and 90% exploring a system is done by holding a button for five seconds, leaving behind nothing but a grind for credits (which I don't need, thanks to credit reward hyper-inflation) and "explored by" tags (which I don't care about), then ennui would inevitably set in.
That's why I stayed in the Bubble playing Imperial Agent, with the occasional foray into exploration when a new idea to explore without needing to go to the system map occurred to me. But they would never work, and sooner or later I would reach my breaking point, and Buckyball it Back to the Bubble.
I think the FSS is just about fine as it is, as the entry-level multi-role scanner. It displays information about a system and its bodies, in a format that is different from the system map, system orrery, or navigation panel. More importantly, it also displays this information even when that information is currently obscured by the proverbial fog of war, in a manner that can be interpreted by the user. There are only two things I would change: the first would be to lift the artificial throttle restriction. The second would be to lift the artificial restriction to hyperjumps.
Oh, and to fix the frelling VR bugs, of course.
What is needed is optional specialized exploration equipment. The most obvious one is, of course, an ADS-like module for those seeking the proverbial rare unicorns. For myself, I'd love a module that would be able to separate a particularly noisy band of the FSA into its individual components. I'm sure other types of explorers would have their own needs and wants as well.
Because that is what exploration really needs IMO. Not one mechanism to rule them all, but a wide variety of kit. It used to be that you couldn't fit everything you need to explore in a Hauler without sacrificing safety for an SRV, let alone bringing along some of the optional extras. These days, you don't need to sacrifice safety for an SRV, and there's still room for two optional extras.
I also wish that Frontier had added something like the SRV's WAVE scanner as an entry level surface POI finder.
Look on the bright side, the most contentious topic has been: is it a mini-game? Contrasting the threads in Dangerous Discussions this has been downright amicable.Agreed. I just can't bare to go another round of "its a minigame", "no its not."
I'd even go as far as having the probe highlight an area and you need a SRV wave like scanner to pinpoint them as standard. And improve the variety of POIs so you would actually want to go look for them.Because that is what exploration really needs IMO. Not one mechanism to rule them all, but a wide variety of kit. It used to be that you couldn't fit everything you need to explore in a Hauler without sacrificing safety for an SRV, let alone bringing along some of the optional extras. These days, you don't need to sacrifice safety for an SRV, and there's still room for two optional extras.
I also wish that Frontier had added something like the SRV's WAVE scanner as an entry level surface POI finder.
edit: By the way, I just realised. You listed things players look for and what tool is best for that. And I never really could relate, because when going from A to B, I usually don't look for a specific something. I look for all things that interest me. (few examples below) That can range from the closest ringed gas giant to a star, to trinary+ systems, insane neutron star system, and things I haven't thought about yet. I only know what I'm looking for when I see it. And for this you need the ADS. The FSS only lets you look for a specific thing, the ADS shows you the entire picture.
Gas Giants close to stars
Stars orbiting stars
Death traps
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I agree with you. This is pretty much how I play. People seem to rush through using the FSS to get to the system map so they can explore systems in the exact way they did before.From the barcode? No. But I've found that binary+ planets like that stick out like a sore thumb during my initial sweep of a system. Furthermore, in pancake mode, with its working (fix the VR part of your game, Frontier!) orbital lines, I would be able to determine the overall heirarchy simply resolving one or two bodies of that quintary world. Granted, it can never compete with holding down a button for five seconds, but pre-FSS finding that kind of thing would've kind of a "eh" moment for me. Post FSS, that's the kind of thing which makes me immediately exit the FSS and head out to take a closer look, while keeping an eagle eye out for any other bodies in the system that I can visit either on the way or afterwards.
It's that whole "feeling of discovery" I've always talked about. For me, the old ADS system was so anti-"feeling of discovery" that I didn't explore in a game where I'd looked forward to being able to explore the galaxy ever since the Kickstarter. Post FSS, I'm kind of pacing myself to arrive in Colonia when the "New Era" drops so I can pick up anynew exploration equipment
edit:
Given the heavy dose of parallax discovery in my style, I've found that the FSS to be quite the handy tool when I'm in the mood for some proper parallax exploration. Which is a big part of why I still like the FSS. It's such a flexible exploration tool in my experience... and it would be even more flexible if Frontier would get rid of that lousy, artificial, and completely unnecessary "you must throttle down to use it" restriction.
edit the second:
Again, speaking personally, the main reason why my exploration style includes some parallax discovery (and sometimes doing entire systems that way for the lols) is for the reward.
For me, that reward isn't credits. I've got 375 million credits in the bank, a billion in assets, and EDSM's current estimate of my exploration data is another three billion... which I believe doesn't include all the worlds I've mapped, from tiny icy worlds with interesting geology, to mighty life bearing gas giants I've mapped because I'm hoping some other explorer will see my tag, and it'll keep them up at night wondering who in their right mind would their time on it?
That reward isn't "discoverd by" or "mapped by" tags either. I'm sure 99% of the systems where I've gotten "first" tags on will never be visited by another player, and I'm fine with someone else getting something I consider of dubious value.
My reward is that "feeling of discovery," that moment where you see a bright point of light moving against the starry background, and you realize that you're looking at an alien world. That's what's keeping me out here, when real life gives me an opportunity to play. If it wasn't, I'd be Buckyballing it Back to the Bubble, once again making making life difficult for the Evil Galactic Federation, and its ruling corporate oligarchy, and spreading the light of freedom and prosperity across human space, and beyond!
I have completely changed how I explore now. I also do a mixture of exploration in the system. I don't FSS the whole system in one go for larger systems, sometimes I see planets that I haven't on the way to one I have and detour over there to get a scan the old fashioned way, and if I see something interesting there I will delay what I was originally going to see. The FSS has opened up exploration for me in so many ways.
But I do know it's not perfect still waiting on some of the VR bugs to be fixed, it's much more flexible then the old method in my view.
Which is mind blowing that frontier went out of their way to limit the choices. Out of all the things they don't raise their hand and do, they did for this.... 1/2 the effective game even gives choice as river always points out, its just the "exploration" half that has no choice.
I like the tenacity of exploration. Its.. 1 year and 4 months and the issue is far from dead. Funny that frontier jump within the hour when combat players get ruffled but not exploration. We'll have to wait for the new era to launch before being able to set any non self defeating expectations sadly. Causing a review bomb on steam or living in second degree fantasy are the only paths available.
Though being honest, i guess i've gotten used to it, its just a huge blemish of below standard crafting they should have done better at. Like your posts trying to help, what i do with it is nothing like the maker intended as well (but for flight purposes).
EDIT: Also i get no bugs in vr with it.. using steam psvr drivers. Must be lucky.
Funnily enough, I'm after the same thing. I look for all the things that interest me as well, including the things you list above, plus things that the system map or nav panel doesn't display, or are hidden behind an ackward to use interface, things like eclipses and other rare alignments, or close orbiting moons and binaries.
The problem I've always had with the ADS is that the process of searching for these things is as important to me as finding them, and holding a button for a few seconds, then looking at a completed system map, is not my idea of fun. Its like wanting to build a model, and getting handed a display piece that's already been assembled and painted instead. Devising strategies on the fly, analyzing data, making mistakes and learning from them: these are all as important as finding things in the first place. Heck, if glowing gas giants had anything in common with each other, I'd move gas giants back to the top of my process, and adjust my default FSA settings to so that it would be in the GGG sweet spot when I enter a system.
You can see orbit lines when zoomed in? You must be very lucky, because to the best of my knowledge its universally absent for all VR users.
Another thing came to my mind about the topic of how the FSS was rushed, and also, the entire exploration update (Codex and all) was rushed as well: if you look back upon it, pretty much everyone was telling Frontier that it's alright if it's delayed, it would be much better than if it were rushed, we've waited long and we can wait more for a proper update. Just please don't pump it out before it's polished and complete.
If memory serves, even the DW2 organisers released some statement like this. But then, of course there was no "community" open letter from streamers and whatnot - maybe that's what would have been needed?
Anyway, Frontier did the exact thing that pretty much everyone implored them not to.
Now, another thing that comes to mind from some of the replies. Let's not forget that the FSS wasn't meant to be a scanner built into all ships. Even as Frontier removed choice from explorers, you would have still had to choose to fit it as an optional internal module. Here's how it went:
1. Beta 1 was released, Frontier converted the Basic / Intermediate / Advanced Discovery Scanner modules to a Discovery Scanner module, saying that it's needed to have one to use the FSS
2. Multiple players do a bug report that you can use the FSS without having the module fitted
3. Next beta update: Frontier removes the Discovery Scanner module entirely, thereby "fixing" the bug
Another interesting "fix" was the DSS. It originally had mass (the same as the old module had), but its power consumption was accidentally higher than the old module's. Not by a lot, but some. In a very few edge cases, this meant that min-maxed explorer ships now had to power it off or couldn't keep going, and a couple of people complained that despite the stated intention that explorers shouldn't have to return to inhabited space to fit the new tools, they'll have to go back to fit a larger power plant, thereby also losing jump range.
Frontier solved this not by setting the power requirement back to what it was, but instead, they went the extra mile to set the power consumption to zero... and then went even further to set the module mass to zero.
You can see the remnant of this in the Engineering recipe for the DSS. It still lists "increased mass" as a downside, despite having zero mass.
Ironically enough, this broke Frontier's stated principle that Engineering mods shouldn't be straight-up upgrades. Of course, a few other mods already broke this after Engineering 2.0, but there, at least you had some opportunity cost: with the DSS, you have none, as the number of recipes you can choose from is one.
(If it still had mass though, you'd have to choose between having the larger probe radius but a higher mass, or the stock radius with the lower mass. The difference wouldn't have been big though: the maximum you could go was 1.3T -> 2.6T.)
What's done is done though, and now, neither could be reverted without causing lots of valid complaints.
Still, thank you for no longer saying that the ADS was an abomination and all. That helps with keeping the discussion moderate.
Sooner or later, people either "graduate" from exploring because they enjoy using the FSS or because they enjoy making screenshots to explore because of other reasons, especially when they find that their reason(s) for exploring also ellicit positive feedback from other players, or well, they stop exploring. The majority of players seem to do that, and little wonder. The majority of players also stop playing PowerPlay, trading, CQC, and so on. Of course, the problem is that the FSS didn't help with player retention.
I think the best low-effort thing that Frontier could do right now (low-effort meaning not adding heaps of more content, reworking and adding new mechanics, and so on) would be to do a built-in version of Elite Observatory, and tie it in with community exploration. Have it feed to the Codex, so everyone can see the rare finds. Seeing other people appreciate and visit your finds is rewarding, after all.
(It would either need a way to instantly tag things or to not have the Codex insta-tag it though, since there are already people scanning the Codex to nab tags before the discoverer turns their data in.)
Of course, what they should do first would be to fix all the Codex bugs.
If memory serves, even the DW2 organisers released some statement like this. But then, of course there was no "community" open letter from streamers and whatnot - maybe that's what would have been needed?
Anyway, Frontier did the exact thing that pretty much everyone implored them not to.
Now, another thing that comes to mind from some of the replies. Let's not forget that the FSS wasn't meant to be a scanner built into all ships. Even as Frontier removed choice from explorers, you would have still had to choose to fit it as an optional internal module. Here's how it went:
1. Beta 1 was released, Frontier converted the Basic / Intermediate / Advanced Discovery Scanner modules to a Discovery Scanner module, saying that it's needed to have one to use the FSS
2. Multiple players do a bug report that you can use the FSS without having the module fitted
3. Next beta update: Frontier removes the Discovery Scanner module entirely, thereby "fixing" the bug
Another interesting "fix" was the DSS. It originally had mass (the same as the old module had), but its power consumption was accidentally higher than the old module's. Not by a lot, but some. In a very few edge cases, this meant that min-maxed explorer ships now had to power it off or couldn't keep going, and a couple of people complained that despite the stated intention that explorers shouldn't have to return to inhabited space to fit the new tools, they'll have to go back to fit a larger power plant, thereby also losing jump range.
Frontier solved this not by setting the power requirement back to what it was, but instead, they went the extra mile to set the power consumption to zero... and then went even further to set the module mass to zero.
You can see the remnant of this in the Engineering recipe for the DSS. It still lists "increased mass" as a downside, despite having zero mass.
Ironically enough, this broke Frontier's stated principle that Engineering mods shouldn't be straight-up upgrades. Of course, a few other mods already broke this after Engineering 2.0, but there, at least you had some opportunity cost: with the DSS, you have none, as the number of recipes you can choose from is one.
(If it still had mass though, you'd have to choose between having the larger probe radius but a higher mass, or the stock radius with the lower mass. The difference wouldn't have been big though: the maximum you could go was 1.3T -> 2.6T.)
What's done is done though, and now, neither could be reverted without causing lots of valid complaints.
Honestly, I don't think it was bad. Pirin had an excellent point as to why it's not a minigame, but a time sink instead. You're the only one who argues that it's neither, and I don't think you managed to convince anyone.Agreed. I just can't bare to go another round of "its a minigame", "no its not."
Still, thank you for no longer saying that the ADS was an abomination and all. That helps with keeping the discussion moderate.
The thing is, the FSS isn't much more either. What you just wrote is still valid, except "exploring a system is done by holding a button for five seconds and then looking through the system map" (FTFY) it's "exploring a system is done by holding a button for five seconds and then playing a time sink". You enjoy the time sink so far, but when you only play two-three hours per week, it certainly helps to stay that way. You are gifted with not just some good imagination, but also the ability to convince yourself that what you came up with is true ("Wide Field Witchspace Anomaly Detector" and all), which is also something that would help extend the novelty even longer. The majority of players aren't like this, however. As they explore more and more, they like the time sink less and less - but the shower of data from it is still pretty popular, which helps with putting up with it.
Sooner or later, people either "graduate" from exploring because they enjoy using the FSS or because they enjoy making screenshots to explore because of other reasons, especially when they find that their reason(s) for exploring also ellicit positive feedback from other players, or well, they stop exploring. The majority of players seem to do that, and little wonder. The majority of players also stop playing PowerPlay, trading, CQC, and so on. Of course, the problem is that the FSS didn't help with player retention.
I think the best low-effort thing that Frontier could do right now (low-effort meaning not adding heaps of more content, reworking and adding new mechanics, and so on) would be to do a built-in version of Elite Observatory, and tie it in with community exploration. Have it feed to the Codex, so everyone can see the rare finds. Seeing other people appreciate and visit your finds is rewarding, after all.
(It would either need a way to instantly tag things or to not have the Codex insta-tag it though, since there are already people scanning the Codex to nab tags before the discoverer turns their data in.)
Of course, what they should do first would be to fix all the Codex bugs.
Oh, I never said it wasn't a time sink. I agree that it is a time sink, in fact I agreed with you on that issue, but as you also pointed out, time sinks aren't necessarily bad.
Clearly, I consider five seconds to be way too short for exploration to be fun. On the other hand, a maximum fifteen seconds, simply to get enough information to decide if a system is interesting enough for me to take a closer look isn't. In fact, once I've decided a system is interesting enough, I tend to add additional time sinks as mood or circumstances allow, because immediately heading off to take a closer look at something that's peaked my interest, then taking a detour to flyby a body I noticed via parallax takes longer than simply staying in the FSS until I've resolved every body in a system.
Not nearly as much fun, though, IMO.
You bring up an interesting point, especially about "looking through the system map."
I enjoy 4X and survival games, especially procedural created ones. In the case of 4X games, I tend to abandon them after about 20 or 30 hours, when there's no more map to unveil, and I feel like victory is inevitable. In the case of survival games, it's about the same period of time: usually when I've gotten to the point where I not just surviving, but thriving in a particularly scenic location where I've built an unnecessarily large home. Once I've reached that point, I'll start a new game and start all over again, because the early part of the game is much more fun than the middle or last. It's also why I tend to play survival games in perma-death mode. If I die, I get to start a new game right away.
It's one of the reasons I don't enjoy NMS, despite it being a survival game. It forces me to go through the same tutorial every time I start a new game, rather than letting me jump straight into the game, using what I learned from the last game to get a quicker start in this one.
Jumping into a new system feels like, to me, kind of a cross between the two. There's the process of unveiling the map from 4X games, sufficient scenery to search for without it being stale (yet), and while I wish there were more survival elements to exploration, jump-onium is rare enough to at least scratch that itch... and I don't have to die to start new game, just jump to a new system.
I think a minor contributor to the ennui I felt during the ADS era may have been the system map itself. I don't like it, I don't like how often I have to use it, and I wish more of its functions would be moved into the targeting panel of the cockpit. In my experience it fails as a way to navigate a system (the nav panel works better), it fails as a way to view body information (there's no better alternative thanks to the artificial throttle restrictions on the FSS), and the only thing it should do well, display the orbital hierarchies of a system in a visual format, kind of fails in VR, due to Frontier's decision to not only render it in 3D, but how it works.
It's an information interface that's designed to work with zero-order input devices (like the mouse) in a 2D interface, and I'm not only using first-order input devices (HOTAS), but I play in a 3D interface as well. Either one makes it awkward to use. Both combined? Ugh.
Same here. I tend to look for interesting initial features upon original honk, in my case signs of life or NSPs.. That means checking the spectrum for gas giants and ELW/AWs. I usually move on if those features are not present. If the gas giants are not interesting, I check the rest of the spectrum for interesting clusters. And I usually check one cluster of bodies at the time, flying to it if it shows what I need.
So I go in and out of the FSS, and I really only use the System Map for reference, as I really don't like it and less so in VR.
Scanning entire systems with the FSS in one go is as mind-numbing as the old ADS scan and fly method was, but at least the FSS is faster.
Sat least the FSS is faster.
That depends on what the player is looking for.
That's the issue, though, isn't it. There seem to be a subset here who compare using the old system for a very specific purpose, but compares that to using the FSS for completionist scanning. Apples and oranges. If both systems are used in the same fashion, the FSS is generally quicker and easier.
S
That's the issue, though, isn't it. There seem to be a subset here who compare using the old system for a very specific purpose, but compares that to using the FSS for completionist scanning. Apples and oranges. If both systems are used in the same fashion, the FSS is generally quicker and easier.
Kind of begs the question then why some people seem to object so strongly to an optional ADS (or ADS type) module...
If both systems are used in the same fashion, the FSS is generally quicker and easier.
Again, it depends on what you are looking for. How much information is enough on which the player can base a meaningful decision to investigate further or rule it out & move on.
The obvious solution is to have both, just as we have in explored space, but for the long standing original mechanic to remain optional so that those who played a lot & grew bored, or those who never took to the old mechanic don't have to fit it. I'd assume most would though.
That way nobody is worse off than they were before 3.3, everybody wins.