General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Ian Skippy]

Italian stats are hard to interpret at the moment. Casualties will be last to drop, but is a reasonably clear indicator of itself. Number of infected is the first to drop, but the least reliable. Number of occupied hospital/ICU beds is the best (as those folks will find their way to the hospital quickly, and then will be tested) but that will be at 100% for the forseeable future.

So with all those caveats: I am cautiously hopeful about the stats of the last few days. It hints they crossed the peak, though we'll need to wait to see if the beds/deaths stats drop as well in a few weeks.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I tend to put my money on people who've taken care of their bodies and lived relatively healthy lives.

That seems to be a given. To be perfectly clear, many of the at-risk people are so due to no fault of their own. But this is indeed a particularly bad time to be, say, an obese smoker who hasn't seen a vegetable in years...

Had some thoughts earlier today about what a particularly poor timing the vaping craze has had...

 

[Stigbob]

Not sure how your first point contradicts mine.

That's because it doesn't.

Won't blame China, but bashes anti-vaxxers who had eff all to do with this outbreak. Personally, I think all of the things that relate to personal health and lifestyle decisions is going to come into play when it comes time to sort out the final tally. I tend to put my money on people who've taken care of their bodies and lived relatively healthy lives.

Nobodies blaming anti-vaxxers for the outbreak, I'm blaming them for being scientifically illiterate types who put the rest of us at risk based on internet conspiracies.

I do blame China I've posted repeatedly about the unregulated exotic meat markets believed to be ground zero for this swine flu, bird flu and SARS. Try replying to my actually stated opinions instead of what you think a naughty liberal thinks.

 

[jasonbarron]

That seems to be a given. To be perfectly clear, many of the at-risk people are so due to no fault of their own. But this is indeed a particularly bad time to be, say, an obese smoker who hasn't seen a vegetable in years...

Had some thoughts earlier today about what a particularly poor timing the vaping craze has had...

If you're an obese smoker than you have plenty of blame. Feeling like we can't say that is an aspect of what I meant by "political correctness kills."

 

[jasonbarron]

Nobodies blaming anti-vaxxers for the outbreak, I'm blaming them for being scientifically illiterate types who put the rest of us at risk based on internet conspiracies.

Meanwhile we have a world wide epidemic that has nothing to do with anti-vaxxers. That being the case, perhaps these people should be left out of the discussion and you should make clearer your point about Chinese culpability.

 

[Stigbob]

Meanwhile we have a world wide epidemic that has nothing to do with anti-vaxxers. That being the case, perhaps these people should be left out of the discussion and you should make clearer your point about Chinese culpability.

Nobody is blaming anti-vaxxers, I said hopefully this current pandemic might actually wake them up to some proper science. I have been very clear in my condemnation of China as the source.

You need to actually read the posts you reply to.

 

[Ian Skippy]

If you're an obese smoker than you have plenty of blame. Feeling like we can't say that is an aspect of what I meant by "political correctness kills."

Oh sure, that was an example of those who did have a hand in their own condition. Just wanted to preface that by saying I understand that there areothers at-risk for different things. Because you just know there will be people out there who will go:"Yeah, so, I am fit, you just shouldn't have a heart condition mate!".

But I can see some of the "It is my body, I do what I want and when it is my time to go it is my time!" folks change their tune quite rapidly when they are actually confronted with their demise.

 

[Northpin]

An analysis of the demographics of the first 2000 deaths in Italy

Covid-19 : profil des patients décédés en Italie

Rome, le vendredi 20 mars 2020 – L’Italie dispose désormais de données robustes sur le profil des patients décédés, infectés par SARS-CoV-2. L’Instituto Superiore di Sanità (qu’on pourrait comparer à notre Santé Publique France) publie ainsi aujourd’hui une étude sur les caractéristiques des...

www.jim.fr

Summary: median age 80.5 yo
Only 3 cases with no pre-existing medical conditions

It's worth mentioning that in the last 3 days i've seen a lot of elders roaming outside :/

 

[Sysmon]

It seems pretty quiet here in NZ already, and the lockdown doesn't even fully start until tonight at midnight. Yesterday's case count fit on the exponential increase expected, but we still haven't had any deaths. Fingers crossed there will only be few.

People don't fail to disappoint, of course. Sometimes in worrying ways (queues in front of a gun store in Auckland), sometimes in funny ways (gang brawl over the last chicken at a supermarket). Stockpiling did get bad enough for police to intervene at supermarkets yesterday.

S

 

[Good Whiskey]

anti-vaxxers who had eff all to do with this outbreak. Personally, I think all of the things that relate to personal health and lifestyle decisions is going to come into play when it comes time to sort out the final tally. I tend to put my money on people who've taken care of their bodies and lived relatively healthy lives.

This is a remarkably shortsighted statement. Healthy people get cancer and countless other diseases that compromise their immune systems through no fault of their own. There are millions of healthy elderly people who are facing a shortened lifespan because of a new threat that thrives against their older immune systems. These are our neighbours and our family and our friends. The anti-vaccination phenomenon is an awkward one for me, because although I value liberty, it pains me to see people suffer (and they have) from mistrust of science and medicine. A dissonant fear of outliers and authority fuels that culture, and more than anything I worry about them, not about me and mine. We all get our shots, because the data says it's the only sensible thing to do.

It really is a legitimate question. Will this affect anti-vaxxers and their perception of the role that control medicine plays in the lives of ordinary people?

 

[Speedcuffs]

An analysis of the demographics of the first 2000 deaths in Italy

Covid-19 : profil des patients décédés en Italie

Rome, le vendredi 20 mars 2020 – L’Italie dispose désormais de données robustes sur le profil des patients décédés, infectés par SARS-CoV-2. L’Instituto Superiore di Sanità (qu’on pourrait comparer à notre Santé Publique France) publie ainsi aujourd’hui une étude sur les caractéristiques des...

www.jim.fr

Summary: median age 80.5 yo
Only 3 cases with no pre-existing medical conditions

It's worth mentioning that in the last 3 days i've seen a lot of elders roaming outside :/

Yeh, my elderly next door neighbour is vulnerable because of her 'attitude', was very worried about her exposing herself unnecessarily . Had a chat this afternoon, her son has been around and told her the score, support in place, she's taken it all on board.
Some are, some aren't.

 

[ZeroAi]

American Perspective:

This past flu season in the USA (ended in February) resulted in roughly 50 Million infected people, and 50,000 deaths. Again, just in the USA.

Also, last year in the USA we lost roughly 37,000 people to car accidents.

As far as COVID-19, today America is up to 680 deaths - here's hoping it doesn't come close to rivaling Car Accidents and the Flu this year.

 

[AkenBosch]

Aw, did I strike a nerve?
Too bad.
BTW, I'm not right or left, so take your pigeon-holing back to wherever "you types" take your garbage.

His answer to you was no doubt definitely over the top and could have been more polite than that, yet adding a "sorry for having posted a wildly inaccurate statement" on your part wouldn't hurt either. As even @jasonbarron remarked (that pesky conservative! ), he had quite the point after all.

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is a remarkably shortsighted statement.

I suspect it was more a matter of somewhat careless phrasing from Jason. I think he means to say that when comparing statistics from various regions, differences in mortality rate can be partly attributed to lifestyle & health choices people made. I don't think he means that on an individual level every (or even most) casualties are to blame. It is why I expanded upon that myself by saying that yes, the 'only-eat-fastfood obese smokers' are likely not doing themselves a favor with their choices. And for sure we can debate how behaviors like smoking have an addictive component to it, and socio-economic factors are correlated with unhealthy diets and so forth. But on some level personal choices (partly based on regional and cultural tendencies) will have an impact.

But maybe I misunderstood him.

 

[jasonbarron]

It really is a legitimate question. Will this affect anti-vaxxers and their perception of the role that control medicine plays in the lives of ordinary people?

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I'm just a guy with lots of responsibilities and grave concerns about the pharmaceutical industry and medical complex as a whole. Of course you can't even say that without being accused of being a flat Earther, but I'm waaaaay past caring what anyone thinks.

I will tell you that I have extensive experience with vaccines in the animal husbandry field and have many truly chilling stories about the consequences of various viruses (conronavirus among them) left to run amok without a vaccination program specifically to target them. Think hundreds of puppies dying to the canine equivalent of Ebola, truly scary, gruesome stuff. In my old career (over a span of about 37 years) I was operating closely with veterinarians from all over the world, as well as nutritionists and other sports medicine related disciplines, while trying to run a world class training and breeding program, so don't think for a second that the acceptance of science didn't play a significant role in our operations. With all that said, our health care and vaccination protocols looked a lot different than the "lets throw a hundred shots at your kid before he's even eighteen months old" approach shoved down the throats of western civ.

 

[Stigbob]

American Perspective:

This past flu season in the USA (ended in February) resulted in roughly 50 Million infected people, and 50,000 deaths. Again, just in the USA.

Also, last year in the USA we lost roughly 37,000 people to car accidents.

As far as COVID-19, today America is up to 680 deaths - here's hoping it doesn't come close to rivaling Car Accidents and the Flu this year.

You can't catch a car accident off a door handle.

 

[Stigbob]

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I'm just a guy with lots of responsibilities and grave concerns about the pharmaceutical industry and medical complex as a whole. Of course you can't even say that without being accused of being a flat Earther, but I'm waaaaay past caring what anyone thinks.

I will tell you that I have extensive experience with vaccines in the animal husbandry field and have many truly chilling stories about the consequences of various viruses (conronavirus among them) left to run amok without a vaccination program specifically to target them. Think hundreds of puppies dying to the canine equivalent of Ebola, truly scary, gruesome stuff. In my old career (over a span of about 37 years) I was operating closely with veterinarians from all over the world, as well as nutritionists and other sports medicine related disciplines, while trying to run a world class training and breeding program, so don't think for a second that the acceptance of science didn't play a significant role in our operations. With all that said, our health care and vaccination protocols looked a lot different than the "lets throw a hundred shots at your kid before he's even eighteen months old" approach shoved down the throats of western civ.

Pre vaccination mortality rates were truly horrific, it was a game changer.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I have pretty strong opinions regarding the vaccination debate, but I am not particularly sure if that is really all that related to what is happening right now. If we have a vaccine for COVID19 and significant numbers of people refuse to take it maybe it'll be a better time to revisit this topic.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Yeh, my elderly next door neighbour is vulnerable because of her 'attitude', was very worried about her exposing herself unnecessarily . Had a chat this afternoon, her son has been around and told her the score, support in place, she's taken it all on board.
Some are, some aren't.

On Dutch TV they were interviewing people out on the streets, and one elderly lady said she knew for sure that the more you try to avoid a disease the more likely it was you'd catch it, so it was best to be out and about as much as possible. Honestly though, plenty of people with common sense in every generation (except toddlers, man are they wild), and plenty of not-so-wise folks in every generation too. A bit concerned about some tentative attempts I've seen in the media to blame this or that generation.

 

[Good Whiskey]

"lets throw a hundred shots at your kid before he's even eighteen months old"

So this is the recommended vaccination schedule in Canada. It contains a total of 18 vaccinations, not all of which are either mandatory or even necessary, and they cover things like tetanus, hepatitis, measles, mumps and rubella. It is not "a hundred shots before he's even eighteen months old". I know what you mean, but that's a dangerous way of thinking. It's a small handful of precautionary injections aimed at keeping human beings alive and in good condition. You go with the math.

In the end, it doesn't actually matter whether the mortality rate of Covid is 0.5% or 5% - what matters is that treating it as anything other than yet another threat to human lives is irresponsible. Not eliminating it, or at the very least doing everything possible to halt its spread, is irresponsible. Ignoring medical professionals, who are dealing with the effects of it directly, is irresponsible. Having a casual attitude toward it is irresponsible.

Economies and markets can come roaring back from the dead. People can't.