Yes they overlap. I didn't say they were in the wrong area. There is a big difference.
FSS - my opinion
- Thread starter [VR] optimal_909
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Well, your tuner isn't over a signal at all in that picture, and is indeed well inside the RIW area on the spectrum.
Had you centered your tuner on the signal to the right, then I would say the text would have changed to Earth Like World.
Not sure I can see what you're trying to say with your video Frillop.
That video seems to show you tuning to an icy body signal, and that is what you get. Or am I missing something?
In the picture that Zieman posted, his tuner, the line on the energy spectrum isn't over a signal at all (from what I could see, and I downloaded the picture so I could zoom in), but is just in the RIW sector of the spectrum, hence why he gets Rocky Ice World bottom right. The body he's looking for is presumably the signal to the right of his tuning marker, which is solidly in ELW territory, and had he placed his tuner over that, even roughly, it would have been identified as such.
That video seems to show you tuning to an icy body signal, and that is what you get. Or am I missing something?
In the picture that Zieman posted, his tuner, the line on the energy spectrum isn't over a signal at all (from what I could see, and I downloaded the picture so I could zoom in), but is just in the RIW sector of the spectrum, hence why he gets Rocky Ice World bottom right. The body he's looking for is presumably the signal to the right of his tuning marker, which is solidly in ELW territory, and had he placed his tuner over that, even roughly, it would have been identified as such.
Yes, I can see that you are not bang on the signal but that you are still able to zoom in, is that your point?
It doesn't alter the fact that Zieman's picture shows his tuner a long way from any signal, and as he said, he has to move it in order to get it to scan / zoom / resolve, and the signal that he is going for is the one to the right which is definitely, solidly in ELW range.
By all means, if you want to believe that the energy spectrum lies to the player, you can, but my experience using it does not support that. If you center your tuner over a signal - center it precisely - the text bottom right will reflect what type of body you are looking at. I will accept that it's sometimes fiddly to center the tuner precisely, but that doesn't equate to uncertainty.
I cannot help but wonder what is going on when people seem to think doing something faster when we are supposedly playing a game, having fun, doing an activity that we presumably enjoy should be the goal. Frankly, if I'm enjoying doing something while playing a game (or indeed anything), I'm not sitting there wondering how soon I can get the fun over with...
That's part of the reason why the fss hurts so much to people passionate about elite dangerous. The two adam frontier employees were proud as bunch as this was what they had explicitly gone out and done..
A horrific tragedy of what happens when people who don't play the game build the game. Only the oldest grandmaster who's been playing the game their entire life should be allowed to put the player hat down and become the dungeon master. Not these young bucks just gunning for promotions in a corporate frontier.
For a change, here's a slightly different perspective, a little meta you could say: I tried to find a comparable thread on Redit. Maybe I didn't search thoroughly enough or the topics I was looking for did not contain FSS or ADS. But... can you do better? If not, and it turns out that this particular thread only appears in this forum, but never on reddit, and since you can interpret statistics so well, what would that tell you?
I have a few ideas, but first of all I want to give everyone the opportunity to prove me wrong and find one or more similar threads on Redit (and silence me immediately).
So, your turn please...
Moderation and downvoting. The demographic there is obsessed with shinies. If you look around reddit in general, even over the few years year or so the tone of place has really changed and its not a discussion forum its a conformity chamber. A bit spooky actually that such a thing actually exists, and is populated.
I didn't say you were lying, I said the energy spectrum does not lie if you use it correctly. There is no overlapping (and I accept that this may be a language issue), but when you tune correctly, you get not maybe what is said bottom right, but exactly what you see bottom right.
There is only uncertainty if you don't tune correctly, and I don't feel remotely uncomfortable.
You can tune close enough to able to zoom in and get a planet type that is not what it says on the bottom right.
Therefore there is an ambiguity until you zoom in. Before I zoomed in the tick on the spectrum was right in the middle of this signal:
To be fair to the two Adam's, I believe (and have said this before), that they felt, quite possibly still feel that the FSS was a good mechanic that addressed a number of issues that FD very likely felt were holding exploration back - as in not as many players engaging in it as they had hoped.
1. They removed the need to passively fly potentially long distances to a body just to scan it and find that there was nothing there.
2. By revealing POI's from a distance they let players make informed choices about which planets to fly to and map.
3. The probing enabled players to find stuff that on planets that was simply not being found before - and that as we know upsets some people.
All these were in theory very nice enhancements to exploration, and we shouldn't forget
4. They introduced hands on gameplay where before there was only passive gameplay.
The problem is that by removing what had been there, they removed or at least made very challenging, gameplay that some players were enjoying. I'm not sure why they removed it. I sincerely hope that it was because of technical constraints, and not that they felt that the FSS was somehow challenging, and I'm pretty sure from watching some of the pre-release streams that this was the case. They were at pains to point out that they were designing it to be intuitive, learnable and quick to use.
From about 15 minutes in.
From about 48 minutes in.
Note - If you take a look at the second video, you see the two Adam's demonstrate the FSS. After they charge the FSS, they spend a bit of time analyzing the energy spectrum, speculating on what type and how many of each bodies the spectrum was indicating. The irony is, the system had 11 bodies in it, and could have been fully scanned in less time than it took one of the Adams to decide that there might be two gas giants present.
And also @iain666
Ok, I see, and yes, that is true, they allowed leeway in the tuning in as much as you are able to zoom / scan when not precisely tuned, in the same way that the chevrons show even if you are not precisely tuned.
However, to say that adds uncertainty is putting the cart ahead of the horse.
If you are looking for a specific body type, then the seconds it takes to confirm definitively that it is what you think / hope should come before you try to scan it, IMHO obviously. Many a time I dropped into a system, saw a signal that might have been an ELW, ran my tuner over it, and yes... Eureka! But I quickly learnt to check that I was centered, and quickly learned that if I wasn't, was even a tiny, tiny bit out, then I was actually looking at a RIW, and the text changed to tell me that. And that was before I zoomed in.And also @iain666
Ok, I see, and yes, that is true, they allowed leeway in the tuning in as much as you are able to zoom / scan when not precisely tuned, in the same way that the chevrons show even if you are not precisely tuned.
However, to say that adds uncertainty is putting the cart ahead of the horse.
Whatever works for you. A quick zoom in and out is, IME, much quicker than worrying about whether I'm centred with sufficient precision when I'm definitely close enough to do the hokey-cokey and know with absolute certainty.
It's certainly quick enough that I've never bothered to try to verify whether your claim that you can know you are precisely centred enough that the bottom right text is 100% accurate is true.
Yes, and that's fine. Indeed the FSS is very quick, and in most cases one might just as well scan everything if you've decided that you're going to scan a system.
Your image by the way shows that your tuner is not centered on the body that you scanned but is in the left half of it, and that body sits right on the border of HMC (on the left) and Rocky Body (on the right), so your tuner is telling you it's an HMC when in fact it's a rocky body.
For what it's worth, I'm banging on about it only in the context of this conversation, where this supposed ambiguity in the FSS makes it somehow more difficult than what was presented by the ADS, and I am simply pointing out that both had ambiguity, and that ambiguity can (and could) be overcome with just a little effort on the user's part. It's nothing personal.
For all the subtlety & nuance that may be in those waveform indicators on the line & the cursor, it is wasted effort because it's quicker to just resolve the signals & have it tell you exactly what the thing is. I barely look at the wave or shape of the arrows, they are only there to tell me there is more to find & what direction to move the cursor in.
Yes, and that's fine. Indeed the FSS is very quick, and in most cases one might just as well scan everything if you've decided that you're going to scan a system.
Your image by the way shows that your tuner is not centered on the body that you scanned but is in the left half of it, and that body sits right on the border of HMC (on the left) and Rocky Body (on the right), so your tuner is telling you it's an HMC when in fact it's a rocky body.
For what it's worth, I'm banging on about it only in the context of this conversation, where this supposed ambiguity in the FSS makes it somehow more difficult than what was presented by the ADS, and I am simply pointing out that both had ambiguity, and that ambiguity can (and could) be overcome with just a little effort on the user's part. It's nothing personal.
The signal prior to resolving it was wider than the planet icon that replaces it afterwards. With the fine control afforded by my use of the keyboard for tuning I can't reliably get any closer to centred before resolution.
It doesn't bother me either and I'm not taking it personally, nor indeed is it any more than the slight ambiguities that exist in the system map with various classes of planet that are easily mistaken for others, just demonstrating that there definitely is prima facie some ambiguity.
Indeed, the relation of the signal before resolution and the planet icon afterwards is really quite weak. If being centred on where that will appear is the key to getting it right then you have no chance at all of reliably lining everything up around the edges of the planet classes before resolving the signal.
Centred on the waveform signal, with a previously discovered gas giant icon completely to one side of the tick:
Resolve and the wholly offset icon acquires a 2 rather than a new icon being added that lines up with the waveform just resolved:
Centred on the waveform signal, with a previously discovered gas giant icon completely to one side of the tick:
Resolve and the wholly offset icon acquires a 2 rather than a new icon being added that lines up with the waveform just resolved:
I've had no issue lining it up with the waveform for potential ELW / RIW, which I suspect is the one that most people would worry about.
It's not a big deal, as you said, there was ambiguity in the system map, and there is a similar ambiguity here, both of which could / can be resolved before you scan if you so wish IMO and in my experience.
Yeah, when I said worry, I mean that seeing an ELW on the spectrum might be a reason for someone to stop and actually scan a system that otherwise they would move on from. Not worry as in real life worries, don't worry...
Might, I should stress, I'm not pretending to know the reasons that everybody playing the game has for scanning systems.
And again, I think this is intended use of the mechanics. In the video I linked to above, the second one, one of the Adams talks about it, says that amongst other things the energy spectrum will give you information you can use to decide whether you want to scan a system. And I suspect that more than a few players do just that.
I said "quite weak" only in the context of @Faded Glory using the fact that the spectrum analyzer tick was not lined up with the planet icon post resolution as evidence that I hadn't properly lined it up with the spectrum before resolving and was merely demonstrating that one is not a wholly reliable indicator of the other.