Sale of goods

Sorry, maybe I'm writing on the wrong subject.

I believe that today's sale is not done right. Flew in a ship and I have only 100 goods in the hold then selling at the 1st price.
If I have 500 goods in the hold and want to sell only 100, the price is not the same. Why is that ?

I think it's a bug and I need to sell with a dynamically changing price when I sell. So when you're selling, you press +.
and the price immediately goes down.

Am I right?
 
BINGO! *checks off forum thread card[1]

The reason is the poorly represented broker system. People call it bulk sales tax, but that's not quite right, rather, if you see "500 demand, price 100", that's not actually 500 units being asked for at 100.

Assume that 500 demand was the maximum demand... at that price a single unit fetches 100. But if demand were just 50 (of that 500 max) the price per unit might actually be more like 75.

To represent that, FD have made an assumption that anyone selling goods, will sell the full amount of goods in their hold[2], and so they automatically calculate a price-per-unit based on your cargo, deducted from the demand.

That is, to simplify numbers, if there was max 2 demand, with:

PPU @ 2 demand = 100
PPU @ 1 demand = 75
PPU @ 0 demand = 50

... and you brought two units to market to sell, the listed price would be 87.5 (that is, one sold at 100, another at 75). Of course, if you sold just one unit, it'd sell at 87.5, not 100, thus the caveat that FD assumes that if you sell goods, you're selling your full holdings, not a partial holding.

It's a terrible implementation, and very poorly represented/visualised in the game.

[1] This is a pretty common question.

[2] This is evidenced by the old, now-resolved exploit of selling 1t at a time, for enhanced influence/BGS effects. Selling 1t of an item 100 times had 100 times the effect on the bgs, compared to selling 100t of an item once; i.e effects were calculated per transaction.
 
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To represent that, FD have made an assumption that anyone selling goods, will sell the full amount of goods in their hold[2], and so they automatically calculate a price-per-unit based on your cargo, deducted from the demand.
Which funnily is exactly what players would do, and therefore FD got right for once.

People keep saying in these threads that they would sell only small amounts 'of course', but then
they would sell again a small amount, and again, and again...
And then either complain that all demands go down immediately (" it's unlogical FD the galaxy is yuuuge I should not have such a big effect on demand")
or complain why all demands on high value goods are down (as it currently is with all goods except LTDs which magically regenerate demand immediately).

So for once, FD got it right, it's just badly told in game.

Rule number one: people will always try to game, well, the game :LOL:
 
Which funnily is exactly what players would do, and therefore FD got right for once.

People keep saying in these threads that they would sell only small amounts 'of course', but then
they would sell again a small amount, and again, and again...
And then either complain that all demands go down immediately (" it's unlogical FD the galaxy is yuuuge I should not have such a big effect on demand")
or complain why all demands on high value goods are down (as it currently is with all goods except LTDs which magically regenerate demand immediately).

So for once, FD got it right, it's just badly told in game.

Rule number one: people will always try to game, well, the game :LOL:
Oh, yeah, no judgement from me on FD's assumption there.

Let's face it, the only people complaining about this are upset when they take eleventybillion tonnes of LTDs to a market asking for 5 tonnes, which has the correct state and economy combinations. I chuckle whenever anyone suggests that they'd actually roam around skimming the profitable portion, if that were an option.

Going between markets would, generally, take anywhere between 5-10 minutes. At 100-250m per hour on LTDs, that's anywhere between 8-41m credits you're losing per switch of market... that's 10% or more of your earnings faffing around going between markets... by the time you hit maybe the fourth or fifth market to get 1.6m, you might as well dump your LTDs for just 500k and be done with it.
 
BINGO! *checks off forum thread card[1]
...
Excuse me, but what does demand have to do with it?

I said I don't think the current implementation is right and it needs to be redesigned !

Sorry about my English translation.
When selling, I press +, the price is so much that I keep pressing + and the price starts to file. This is how it should be !

And as a result, the one who arrives with 100 tones will sell at the same price as the one who arrived with 500 tones but sold only 100 !
 
Oh, yeah, no judgement from me on FD's assumption there.

Let's face it, the only people complaining about this are upset when they take eleventybillion tonnes of LTDs to a market asking for 5 tonnes, which has the correct state and economy combinations. I chuckle whenever anyone suggests that they'd actually roam around skimming the profitable portion, if that were an option.

Going between markets would, generally, take anywhere between 5-10 minutes. At 100-250m per hour on LTDs, that's anywhere between 8-41m credits you're losing per switch of market... that's 10% or more of your earnings faffing around going between markets... by the time you hit maybe the fourth or fifth market to get 1.6m, you might as well dump your LTDs for just 500k and be done with it.
It's not right. In your scheme, you're selling at a slightly higher price. This isn't right. It has to be the other way around !

You sell small and the price goes down. It's very easy to sell. As I wrote above.

P.S. After such realization everything will be clear at once and many people will lose questions.
 
I typically just wait for prices to improve, or demand recover.
The system does seem illogical, but it was the method they chose to nerf mining profits. Well, technically, they only nerfed it if you don't figure out and play by the new sell rules.
 
When selling, I press +, the price is so much that I keep pressing + and the price starts to file. This is how it should be !

And as a result, the one who arrives with 100 tones will sell at the same price as the one who arrived with 500 tones but sold only 100 !

See this comment:

It's a terrible implementation, and very poorly represented/visualised in the game.

Not disagreeing with your complaint, just explaining how the current system works, though my second post is basically just explaining "Why would you bother going to different stations to sell anyway?"... since you'd lose so much bouncing between the different stations even if your suggestion was implemented.
 
I typically just wait for prices to improve, or demand recover.
The system does seem illogical, but it was the method they chose to nerf mining profits. Well, technically, they only nerfed it if you don't figure out and play by the new sell rules.
The scheme is correct, its implementation is not correct. From the simplification of its implementation, it seems to be incorrect and amazes questions :(
 
The scheme is correct, its implementation is not correct. From the simplification of its implementation, it seems to be incorrect and amazes questions :(
It assumes (correctly imho) the player wants to sell his full hold, because that is logical.

In an optimal world, it would give you different prices for selling 100 tons three times, rather than selling 300 tons once.
The net result should be the same, otherwise everyone would sell in 1 ton increments and later complain why FD made 'such a grind' out of it.
 
See this comment:



Not disagreeing with your complaint, just explaining how the current system works, though my second post is basically just explaining "Why would you bother going to different stations to sell anyway?"... since you'd lose so much bouncing between the different stations even if your suggestion was implemented.
What about different stations ?

There should be no difference in profits if a ship with 100 tons arrives at the station, sells them and leaves empty.
vs
If a ship with 500 tons arrives, it will sell only 100 tons and fly away with 400 tons.

The income of both commanders must be the same !
 
Not disagreeing with your complaint, just explaining how the current system works, though my second post is basically just explaining "Why would you bother going to different stations to sell anyway?"... since you'd lose so much bouncing between the different stations even if your suggestion was implemented.

Just to elaborate: Baseline harvesting rate for LTDs nets you between 100-250m, dependent on your technique and some luck.

That's a rate of around 8-20m per 5 minutes.

Even if what you suggest was implemented, you can either:
1. Spend 1h mining, and dump 500t at the nearest station for 1m/t (very easy to find); or
- Spend 1h mining, and another hour jumping between a dozen stations making sure you sell everything for the maximal 1.6m

(1) Will earn you about a billion in 2 hours. (2) will earn you just 750m.
 
What about different stations ?

There should be no difference in profits if a ship with 100 tons arrives at the station, sells them and leaves empty.
vs
If a ship with 500 tons arrives, it will sell only 100 tons and fly away with 400 tons.

The income of both commanders must be the same !
Once again...

It's a terrible implementation, and very poorly represented/visualised in the game.

I'm not disagreeing with your issue at all. I'm just explaining how it's currently implemented, and how attempting to skim is just going to hurt yourself anyway if what you suggested was implemented.
 
What about different stations ?

There should be no difference in profits if a ship with 100 tons arrives at the station, sells them and leaves empty.
vs
If a ship with 500 tons arrives, it will sell only 100 tons and fly away with 400 tons.

The income of both commanders must be the same !
The question is: why would you do that.
FD (imho correctly) assumes the only reason not to sell a full hold is to try to milk the system by relogging/leaving the instance to again get top prices.
 
And now this is not right. What if a player didn't do it?

Correct, it's not right, but there's minimal reason to do otherwise if your focus is credit earnings. The effort to skim other stations with such a system is quickly outstripped by the alternative of simply mining more LTDs[1] elsewhere, given the time it takes.

The only situation I can think of is if you want to bolster the economy of different stations, but then, income isn't a consideration as the stations you're targeting almost certainly won't have the correct states to get that 1.6m

[1] All commodities are affected, but the demand levels are usually sufficient to not have an impact overall for standard cargo.
 
The question is: why would you do that.
FD (imho correctly) assumes the only reason not to sell a full hold is to try to milk the system by relogging/leaving the instance to again get top prices.
Hmm.
Are you saying that when you sell, the demand doesn't drop or something?
 
Hmm.
Are you saying that when you sell, the demand doesn't drop or something?
Markets regenerate demand (partially) every 10 minutes or so. There could be other conditions related to instance, but i've not looked at it. Ostensibly, two players arriving at the market at the same time, in different instances, will see the same demand at that time.
 
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Markets regenerate demand (partially) every 10 minutes or so. There could be other conditions related to instance, but i've not looked at it. Ostensibly, two players arriving at the market at the same time, in different instances, will see the same demand at that time.
Hmm.

That is, if 100 players will sell 500 tons of demand in 1000 tons, then within 10 minutes the demand (price) will remain the same ?
 
That is, to simplify numbers, if there was max 2 demand, with:

PPU @ 2 demand = 100
PPU @ 1 demand = 75
PPU @ 0 demand = 50

... and you brought two units to market to sell, the listed price would be 87.5
Part of the reason it's a terrible implementation is that there's a good chance the listed price would actually be about 40, as implemented. If it actually gave you 87.5 then even with LTDs most people would hardly have noticed it.

Here's an example with Coffee (because it's reasonably commonly traded and has clearer demand behaviour than LTDs do)
If you compare the 22:04, 22:07, 22:08, and 22:21 prices you can tell that whoever recorded the 22:07 and 22:08 ones was carrying Coffee and getting the bulk tax, and by extrapolating the red and blue lines from 22:21 onwards backwards a bit, you can tell that the 22:07/08 recorder sold about 40t of Coffee to the station but was charged in bulk tax at an average price which on the algorithm above would imply they had about 160t in their hold (and we'll never know but it seems unlikely that they in fact had 160t but only sold 40t ... there are plenty of other examples, too, it's just this one is easy to read).

In this case the quantities involved and price differences are trivial - they were charged about 25c/t tax and should have been charged about 5c/t. But have it make the same 4-5x mistake on goods worth 100,000s of credits each and it looks a bit weird.
 
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