Relative mouse nerf or Hotas control needs a bit of love.

[Fuego Estelar]

you are taking an small number of top pvp players in the game, and even with this small number most of them use k&m, I repeat, take about the top 200, or even 100 top, and about 90% use m&k.

Of course there is people using hotas which can be better than most other players no matter what they use, but that´s the normal situation.

Use this as an example. Take two total noobs in elite, and make one of them use m&k and the only one use HOTAS, I am quite sure in about, I don´t know, 50 hours of training, the m&k user probable will be better in 1vs1, because requires much less training "to git good" as you would say

 

[L'Intouchable]

Hi folks,

I have been playing elite dangerous for about 4 and a half years and making pvp for the last 2 years.

If you see the top, for example, 200 pvp players in this game, roughly 10% are using HOTAS or ar least joystick, and the rest are using the mouse + keyboard + relative mouse combo.
This simple percentages indicate is not balanced

Everybody who makes pvp in this game knows HOTAS users has to practice much more to be acurate in shooting and even in FA off control than a mouse and keyboard user, and this is not an exageration, it is a fact, so again, is not balanced.

Maybe the FDEV team haven´t tested enough because I think If they do it they would realize easily.

So what I am asking from from frontier is to balance these mechanics, maybe nerfing the relative mouse efect to make the control and aiming with mouse a bit more difficult or maybe introducing some mechanic that make control and aiming a bit easier for HOTAS users.

Anyone who thinks I am not right, can see on internet on thousand videos, how easy is to hit with long range railguns using keyboard and mouse, and on the other hand with HOTAS is more difficult.

Or also can test it flying in FA off with mouse and keyboard, and then try the same with a HOTAS.

Regards.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this post and what it's trying to achieve.

Relative Mouse is not an "easy mode," if aim was the most important thing in Elite then we'd all be flying in FA ON. Different control setups have different advantages, this will always be the case. Relative mouse simply emulates the centering force of joysticks, it doesn't magically fly your ship for you (or should we remove FA on from the game?).

People can git gud with whatever control setup they like best, the mouse offers greater precision than a joystick in small movements, regardless of relative mouse. The joystick offers advantages in more analog axis and more gradual control for larger movements.

Seriously just stop complaining about your inability to fly properly, it's not because of your setup I promise you. There are plenty of joystick and HOTAS pilots who are among the best pilots in the game. Just git gud Fuego.

 

[Arguendo]

Honestly, look at what relative mouse does - it applies a counter rotational correction so that when you stop moving your mouse, your ship stops spinning.
If centering the stick did the same thing, that's all that would really be needed to bring the two into line.

This is not accurate I'm afraid.
Relative mouse does not apply any counter rotational correction automatically. The only difference between a stick and a mouse with relative mouse set, is that the joystick has to physically move to the center and pass it to apply counter rotational corrections, while the mouse automatically centers itself when you stop moving it.
Both still need the user to apply the exact opposite input to stop a rotation. The relative length of this input is however doubled on a stick, as it has to pass center first. Mouse just needs to stop and then flick back the same amount as was applied.

Edit: Ninja'd by lots and lots of people. So much for Discording and posting on the forums at the same time

 

[TEBORI]

@L'Intouchable

it doesn't magically fly your ship for you

this is exactly what it does in view of counter moves related to rotation on pitch and yaw

 

[Deleted member 192138]

this is not correct lin and also the problem why you cant fly with relative mouse on in supercruise or normal space
it stops the rotation.
and in fa off this is working like a stabilisator. everyone from frontier who tries this out will see it.

with stick you have to compensate all the rotation with counter rotation manuelly which is extreme hard
which means i have 50% pitch positive with x amountof thrust then i need 50% negative pitch with exact the same amount of thrust.
good luck to do this with stick manuelly. have you ever tried btw.

with mouse i just pitch up and stop the pitch with a short fast down move the relative mouse will calculate how many negative pitch is needed.

i am around in the pvp community since 2016. i met more or less 1000 full fa off players in that time
i remember less then 20 who fly full perma fa off and still use flight stick.

You can't fly relative mouse in supercruise because supercruise is locked flight assist on. The flight computer stabilises rotational movement when output is no longer detected.
Relative mouse centres the output of the mouse when you stop moving it. In assisted flight this means movement stops. In flight assist off this means acceleration stops. You must still apply an opposing force manually to counter existing rotation.
I cannot believe you're kicking up this fuss based on a fundamental misunderstanding of a game mechanic you claim to know so much about.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nRpGZGSdyc&t=35

 

[Fuego Estelar]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this post and what it's trying to achieve.

Relative Mouse is not an "easy mode," if aim was the most important thing in Elite then we'd all be flying in FA ON. Different control setups have different advantages, this will always be the case. Relative mouse simply emulates the centering force of joysticks, it doesn't magically fly your ship for you (or should we remove FA on from the game?).

People can git gud with whatever control setup they like best, the mouse offers greater precision than a joystick in small movements, regardless of relative mouse. The joystick offers advantages in more analog axis and more gradual control for larger movements.

Seriously just stop complaining about your inability to fly properly, it's not because of your setup I promise you. There are plenty of joystick and HOTAS pilots who are among the best pilots in the game. Just git gud Fuego.

Again, I am not complaining about my skill (or lack of skill as you want to say), I am just saying all control methods should be balanced, that´s all. Almost everybody who has tried the two methods are asked, 90% will say is much easier to fly fa off with m&k, and that´s not balanced, that´s all.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Again, I am not complaining about my skill (or lack of skill as you want to say), I am just saying all control methods should be balanced, that´s all. Almost everybody who has tried the two methods are asked, 90% will say is much easier to fly fa off with m&k, and that´s not balanced, that´s all.

If you have spent more money on what you claim to be a mechanically inferior control input that's your choice. There is no obligation to abstractly "balance" the mechanical differences of a control inputs you have chosen to spend more money on. The expectation that other control inputs should be nerfed to match your capabilities with your more expensive option is frankly the most bizarre argument based out of egocentric entitlement that I've come across on the forums to date.

 

[L'Intouchable]

this is not correct lin and also the problem why you cant fly with relative mouse on in supercruise or normal space
it stops the rotation.
and in fa off this is working like a stabilisator. everyone from frontier who tries this out will see it.

with stick you have to compensate all the rotation with counter rotation manuelly which is extreme hard
which means i have 50% pitch positive with x amountof thrust then i need 50% negative pitch with exact the same amount of thrust.
good luck to do this with stick manuelly. have you ever tried btw.

with mouse i just pitch up and stop the pitch with a short fast down move the relative mouse will calculate how many negative pitch is needed.

i am around in the pvp community since 2016. i met more or less 1000 full fa off players in that time
i remember less then 20 who fly full perma fa off and still use flight stick.

Akuma, again you're wrong.

Relative mouse does this in Supercruise because in supercruise you're not in bloody FA off.

If you center your stick in supercruise it will have the same effect. Same thing in FA on.

Do I really have to make a video proving you're lying?

 

[Fuego Estelar]

If you have spent more money on what you claim to be a mechanically inferior control input that's your choice. There is no obligation to abstractly "balance" the mechanical differences of a control inputs you have chosen to spend more money on. The expectation that other control inputs should be nerfed to match your capabilities with your more expensive option is frankly the most bizarre argument based out of egocentric entitlement that I've come across on the forums to date.

again and again and again, I am not speaking about me, there are a lot of hotas users that think the same as me, and even more, some ex-hotas users who wanted to make pvp and finally changed to k&m, who also think the same as me.

And as always you start with personal attacks.

Go on that way, very good

 

[L'Intouchable]

again and again and again, I am not speaking about me, there are a lot of hotas users that think the same as me, and even more, some ex-hotas users who wanted to make pvp and finally changed to k&m, who also think the same as me.

And as always you start with personal attacks.

Go on that way, very good

It's your post Fuego stop trying to deflect correct arguments with wails of "pErSoNaL aTtAcKs"

 

[Fuego Estelar]

It's your post Fuego stop trying to deflect correct arguments with wails of "pErSoNaL aTtAcKs"

Man you can tell me you preffer x or y method or control / weapon /whatever, and I can maybe think different, but what I am not going to do is telling you something like "your egocentric entittlement" like barnard told before, so no need to start with these things

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Uh oh stream snipe incoming

 

[L'Intouchable]

Man you can tell me you preffer x or y method or control / weapon /whatever, and I can maybe think different, but what I am not going to do is telling you something like "your egocentric entittlement" like barnard told before, so no need to start with these things

If you're going to make a forum post in which you complain about the effects of relative mouse that don't even exist, you should be able to take some witty remarks in return. Your argument is false, and it does seem like you're simply upset that HOTAS isn't better.

 

[Kyokushin]

Relative mouse is most cancerous thing what FDev done to this game (even worse than group/open/solo modes).

Flying on mouse is easy like playing FPS now.

P.S.
I am playing mostly in PvP since Beta 3 in 2014... still on HOTAS. M+KB in starship is just immersion breaker for me, even its much more efficient.

 

[Fuego Estelar]

If you're going to make a forum post in which you complain about the effects of relative mouse that don't even exist, you should be able to take some witty remarks in return. Your argument is false, and it does seem like you're simply upset that HOTAS isn't better.

Read slowly my first post, I haven´t spoken about any specific effect.

 

[TEBORI]

@L'Intouchable

Do I really have to make a video proving you're lying?

we can do this any time on live stream and i will show you that i just have to initiate the counter move but i dont have to care how far.
then we do it with stick and i also show you that the counter moves of the rotation are 100 times more difficult even with a high end stick.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

@L'Intouchable


we can do this any time on live stream and i will show you that i just have to initiate the counter move but i dont have to care how far.
then we do it with stick and i also show you that the counter moves of the rotation are 100 times more difficult even with a high end stick.

You can't do that because that's not how it works

 

[Morbad]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2e3J88uZJY
-- not done converting, but should be clear enough.

Again, I am not complaining about my skill (or lack of skill as you want to say), I am just saying all control methods should be balanced, that´s all. Almost everybody who has tried the two methods are asked, 90% will say is much easier to fly fa off with m&k, and that´s not balanced, that´s all.

I think I find it easier to fly FA off with my HOTAS than KBM, though a large part of this is because I have analog thruster controls on my throttle. My FA off aim is better with with the mouse, if I practice a bit after switching to it (though it would certainly also be better with a better stick), but general piloting is a wash, even if I use my throttle + mouse.

we can do this any time on live stream and i will show you that i just have to initiate the counter move but i dont have to care how far.
then we do it with stick and i also show you that the counter moves of the rotation are 100 times more difficult even with a high end stick.

It may well be that you find fine input subjectively easier with the mouse than a stick, but that's not from relative mouse auto-correcting past input, which it cannot do.

More likely it's from the stick being more massive and attached to springs that have to be fought. Higher-end sticks also tend to have stronger springs for more rapid centering and better tactile feedback when using extensions. If possible you should use the lightest springs that will reliably center the stick and the lightest (thus least inertia) grip you can get away with. This is one of the reasons I'm fairly happy with my CH Fighterstick, even though it's accuracy is objectively worse than many of the higher-end sticks I've tried.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Making hotas better than MnK will essentially make PvP in ED a pay to win as players need to afford a hotas setup to be on equal terms. As it stands now, everyone owning a PC will have MnK available with very high certainty whereas only a fraction will be able and willing to afford a hotas setup. The reason why you think only 10% of the top PvPers are using a hotas is not due to MnK being easier to aim with (it is imo but comes with other disadvantages, which I will be mentioning in a moment) but due to the fact that most players don't have or desire one in the first place.

As it stands now, I see no balance issue with MnK and hotas. Maybe gamepad users are at a disadvantage but that's a different topic. Hotas setups allow for a wide variety of inputs in a very short amount of time and even synchronous. For instance I can control all 3 axis of manouvering with just a single hand. I can control my throttle with my other hand and still have 10 fingers left for additional input such as primary/secondary fire, utilities, sensor adjustment, target control, sub-target control, firegroup management, pip management etc. etc.
With MnK you can not do this as you will need atleast 1 finger per axis, leaving you with only 7 fingers left and keep in mind that you only have one mouse so you can only use one hand. The amount of input you can trigger as a MnK user is by far more limited compared to a hotas user but the advantage comes in aiming as with relative mouse you will have a much more precice control of your ship as you can quickly switch from 100% input to 0% in an instant whereas hotas users must cover a certain distance with their movements to achieve that, which in slower and worse aiming but comes with other advantages as mentioned above.

At the end of the day it is merely a style choice and for me I have chosen hotas all the way. Doubt I can even properly dock my ship with MnK to be honest as I never have used MnK in ED before.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

No production value to this sorry. Just raw footage, demonstration and explanation of how relative mouse is not auto-stabilisation. It centres mouse output same as taking your hand off a joystick does. All counter momentum must still be manually applied by the user.

Source: https://youtu.be/CIcNoYGb2y0