Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Rubbernuke]

Then the pirate should pay with his life, his ship with no rebuy and loss of ALL equiped engineering upgrades if/when he dies to ATR.

Why? A proper pirate will have stacks of assault charges but not many for murder. ATR is only triggered by notoriety which is driven by murders.

Player killers yes, pirates no.

 

[Havvk]

Its not a yes or no answer.

That's why I'm still waiting for that yes or no. It's not hard to say no if you think it's a no. Come on, say it. You'll feel better when you get it off your chest.

 

[Havvk]

Why? A proper pirate will have stacks of assault charges but not many for murder. ATR is only triggered by notoriety which is driven by murders.

Player killers yes, pirates no.

Which is why piracy assualts should be on the list, when it happens in certain systems like high-med security. NPCs and players alike. Especially in Empire space, slave theft is like punishable by public execution I believe

 

[MadSinUN]

No.
What about the solo/pg players? This sounds like a B.S. excuse to make non-PvP players pay with having to do extra steps and grinding just to have a useless wannabe "PvP off" mode

No, I suggest paying in-game currency only for changing the open Pvp/Pve mode. Initially, when entering open mode, the player voluntarily and completely free of charge chooses the mode.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Whilst I sort of agree (ish) unfortunately being able to improve our game play is not possible for some of us. Now that is frustrating.

I'm not really talking about motor skill improvements here, really, just basically learn the game mechanics better because even if one is a poor shot/pilot, one has still a sizeable amount of control over the situation - for most actions in the game there's a counter. And there's a fair bit of satisfaction and enjoyment to be gained from making progress that way, if one is inclined to be open minded enough about it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

This have already been addressed several times by people, myself included. Could you please stop assuming ideals of other players?

Is there a reasonable expectation that gankers and worse would not make use of features introduced to facilitate piracy?

You know what? I don't like to be dominated or coerced, and I don't like to be prey. But both of you assume that's what we argue is "fun".

I assume you have both played hide-and-seek. The pirate/ganker is the one seeking. Can't you see why it's fun to try and -avoid- the one trying to find you?

I assume you have both played chase? The pirate/ganker is the one chasing. Can't you see why it's fun to try and outrun and outmanoeuvre the one chasing you?

I stopped playing those childrens' games long ago. I don't choose to play those types of games in my leisure time as an adult.

I can see well enough that some players find such gameplay to be fun though while at the same time noting that not all players will find it to be fun.

The fact is, everyone I have seen arguing for why being the so called "prey" is fun isn't that "you get dominated" - it's "you try and AVOID being dominated" and if you play well, you will make the hunter fail! The fun is in -beating- the hunter by escaping! I've not seen anyone argue yet that "no it's fun to be robbed without being able to avoid it" - though I'm sure some think it is. Facing adversary, challenge, and overcoming it, that's what I, and many others, find fun. I don't care if I'm the "hunter" or the "prey" - If I defeat you in whatever role, it feels good.

Some find the thrill of the chase to be "fun", no doubt. Some aren't playing chase in this game - so when the attacker decides to attack they don't find the interruption to their gameplay to be "fun".

On the topic of pirates "not finding many" - I don't think that's due to lack of people, but lack of concentration. If you played in open during the FC rush to mine Borann you would have seen plenty of miners both going for the rings there, and showing up in the highest sell station, all in open. There's not really a lack of people, there's a lack of finding them. Because the bubble is huge.

The bubble is huge indeed - and tiny compared to the galaxy. Fleet Carriers will let players seek out new resource locations without having to keep returning to sell their mined commodities.

 

[Havvk]

No, I suggest paying in-game currency only for changing the open Pvp/Pve mode. Initially, when entering open mode, the player voluntarily and completely free of charge chooses the mode.

No. There's already Open/Solo/PG. That's it, we don't need anymore.

 

[Mohrgan]

This have already been addressed several times by people, myself included. Could you please stop assuming ideals of other players?

You know what? I don't like to be dominated or coerced, and I don't like to be prey. But both of you assume that's what we argue is "fun".

I assume you have both played hide-and-seek. The pirate/ganker is the one seeking. Can't you see why it's fun to try and -avoid- the one trying to find you?

I assume you have both played chase? The pirate/ganker is the one chasing. Can't you see why it's fun to try and outrun and outmanoeuvre the one chasing you?

The fact is, everyone I have seen arguing for why being the so called "prey" is fun isn't that "you get dominated" - it's "you try and AVOID being dominated" and if you play well, you will make the hunter fail! The fun is in -beating- the hunter by escaping! I've not seen anyone argue yet that "no it's fun to be robbed without being able to avoid it" - though I'm sure some think it is. Facing adversary, challenge, and overcoming it, that's what I, and many others, find fun. I don't care if I'm the "hunter" or the "prey" - If I defeat you in whatever role, it feels good.

On the topic of pirates "not finding many" - I don't think that's due to lack of people, but lack of concentration. If you played in open during the FC rush to mine Borann you would have seen plenty of miners both going for the rings there, and showing up in the highest sell station, all in open. There's not really a lack of people, there's a lack of finding them. Because the bubble is huge.

Just block me if you don't like what I post. I can type anything I like, if you have a problem with something report me to the Mods.

There is no need for you to attempt to explain games play to me. I'll just refer you to look up the definition of the word: Subjective. After you have that under your belt, we can resume.

If being the prey is so much fun, why do we need artificial inducements to make players accept that role? Or at least to get enough to do it to matter...

The modes are even bigger than the galaxy. And, that is on purpose.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Which is why piracy assualts should be on the list, when it happens in certain systems like high-med security. NPCs and players alike. Especially in Empire space, slave theft is like punishable by public execution I believe

If it was done in a coherent way then why not? Certain gov types could punish in different ways.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I don't have to get better for you, or anybody else. I don't have to git gud at all. You can't make me, deal with it. Just like I can't force you to stay a good guy in-game.

I don't care at all what you do or don't do, it doesn't affect me. I just find it puzzling that people don't want to improve themselves, but good luck in life with that attitude and all.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's why I'm still waiting for that yes or no. It's not hard to say no if you think it's a no. Come on, say it. You'll feel better when you get it off your chest.

I've just told you what I thought of your question.

 

[LanceLord]

Hello! Just a little headstart:
I am not a pvp'er! I only play in pve! And mostly in solo or pg's! This thread is a discussion about why i don't play in open and partake in pvp, and what could maybe, possibly bring some people into open! At least more often!

Here is something i was thinking about for the last... week, if not more. And before i start - no, i don't belive pirates to be the worst kind o players. Or gankers. And i don't belive PVP is a devil-spawn to be killed with fire. On the contrary. I just want to give a bit of... insight, as to why people are avoiding open.

For the past few days i have been (like many others) mining. Not to get a carrier though! I am mining because right now, with Carriers added, you have an actuall way to interact and work together with other players. I can chat with people in Elite! What a shock! The chat actually serves another function besides trying to insult that one guy who is going to get married! I got some Ltd's, i gave some tritium to the pal who has been using his carrier as a taxi, somethimes selling some ltd's on a lower price for them as well, as my way of saying "thank you!". Overall a very, very nice experience. The carriers do serve a nice role for miners now, horay! But, at the same time i have noticed a few people, who have been asking other cmdr's to mine in open, and who would usually get very.... "defensive", when met with an overall negative response to their speaches about risk taking and solo/pg players destroying the pirate-side of the experience. Thus i do assume, that those folks were mostly pirates, who wanted a challenge. And there is, of course, nothing wrong with that.

Because of that, and of the few conversations i had both in game and on discord, I started to wonder - why would anyone actually mine in open? Or play in open at all?

PVP in Elite is a ...can. Maybe not of worms, but it does have it's problems. Combat logging, insults towards pirates, game being not balanced at all. But i have been wondering, why would anyone actually mine, trade or...well, fly in open?
There are a few reasons, as to why people don't want to do that, in my opinion. Look at this example:

1. You mine in open.
2. Someone goes to you, points his guns at you, demanding some LTD's you have just mined. You have three options:
a) give him the stuff;
b) try and run away;
c) fight;

In Elite, the easiest thing to do is to run away. Making a quick ship is not that difficult, so running away quickly and high-waking is the easest thing to do. But it does take away time, which some have only a little of to play. And let's be honest. You go to another system, you have escaped... but you have to go back to that system to continue what you have been doing. So... what was the point of running away? (Of course, that is, IF the system is your selling system or mining system, if it's mid-way, then you can take a detour, but people are waiting for targets in selling systems...).

Combat? I would forget it. If your enemy is in a pvp build, and you are in a mining build, you are not gonna win. Unless the pirate is very bad at flying or you are very good at it. But why would you, when you came here to mine? Or to trade?

And giving up to his demands? That is the worst option in the eyes of some players. Elite is a time-consuming game. So imagine - you mine for an hour (it's even worse, if you don't like mining), and now some guy wants you to give it up?

What does it sum up to?
Besides a potential (and usually one-time for some) "Hey! I have managed to run away! I ma so great!", there is no incentive to actually go through that.
Everything you do in Elite, you can do in Solo, PG, or Open.

A gameplay loop in Elite usually consists of:
1. Prepare a ship for said loop (and start the loop, if it is a trading/passanger route);
2. Go to the system
3. Mine/trade/do something
4. Go to the system where you take your reward for it.

IF you go in open, you add the risk of having all that you did/are trying to acomplish ruined/stoped.
And there is no reward for taking that risk. It doesn't matter if you are in open. In fact, most people may avoid being in open, because:

They DON'T want to be someone's gameplay.

Because, frankly, why would they?
Being a prey in Elite is not fun for everyone. It is usually annoying (besides maybe the first two times you are being chased). After all:
- you are being attacked by someone, who will win in a 1 v 1 fight, the npc's will come to help you, but they may not arrive in time, hatchbreaking your ship is easy. And of course, you get nothingout of that experience, besides being annoyed that you just took this kind of risk for no potential gain.


Thus, as the title stated- Being a "prey" of a pirate is not fun, gives no reward for the risk taken, and is usually a very not-fun experience.
Yes, you can learn how to run away. You can avoid the danger. But the gameplay-part of "running away and avoiding the danger" is not fun, because you are not getting anything for it.


What i would like to add at the end - please, if you would like people to play in open with you, so you can find a challenge, so you can be the pirate you would like to be, think about why people don't want go through that ^ ^.

Also: i am talking about people who don't like that kind of gameplay. IF you do like being a prey, if you like the "I have to run away!" then all the power for you. But there are many, who don't enjoy it.

Sincerely,
Eric Alsteif.

There's always the option to mine in Open. But log out just before jumping into the heavily trafficked/blockaded pirate/PvP grief sell system. Log back in under Solo/PG and enter said selling system. Bank your millions in profit.

Problem solved.

ps: If you're a PvE minded gamer, then there is ZERO rationale or reason to bother with entering Open. Because PG (especially PG groups like Mobeius with some registered 40K+ members) is IDENTICAL to Open.

The only difference is if you in you mining ship encounter me (as a non mining/combat build Cmndr) then NOTHING happens. The worst you can ever expect from encountering a PvE Cmndr like myself is an annoying/friendly Hello Cmndr 07 07! on your Comm

Finally, PG is superior to Solo because you have the assistance and support services of the likes of the Fuel Rats and SAR (besides other Cmndrs with whom you can collaborate/wing up with). These fearless and diligent First Respondere Cmndrs make a career of putting thier lives on the line playing in Open. So tbh, there really isn't a need for PvE minded Cmndrs to play in Open. Unless they desire a persistent Permadeath experience from 99% of PvP encounters. Other than that, your game experience is the same (if not enhanced/better from a PvE perspective) if you play in PG.

 

[Havvk]

If it was done in a coherent way then why not? Certain gov types could punish in different ways.

Then help me by advocating for the fixing of the C&P system to feel and look like an actual functioning Law and Order system, instead of how it is now. Attackers worst case scenario is being forced to go afk and not play the game for F-ing HOURS just because they have 2-3 notoriety. They shouldn't be punished like that for playing the way they like. Put them in max security prison that fires at you the moment you try "leaving before your time is served" while you're trying to jailbreak and escape while trying to not die to "slightly weaker" station guns

 

[MarkAusten]

Pirate: Hey traders, you should come over here and be prey for us pirates.

Trader: Tell you what, you play at being the prey for a while and let your PVP friends attack you.

Pirate: But I don't want to be the prey.

Trader: Nor do we.

 

[Havvk]

I don't care at all what you do or don't do, it doesn't affect me. I just find it puzzling that people don't want to improve themselves, but good luck in life with that attitude and all.

It's not about improving themselves.


This is a video game. Not a freaking life-long soul search to find out that 42 is the meaning of life. You don't have to git gud for anybody or any reason. The only reason you "should" is because you want to, out of YOUR OWN choice.




Also some people aren't allowed to improve. Perhaps they're so trash that they die constantly every 5 seconds to the slightest solar breeze it's not even funny. If you're constantly dying every 5 seconds to everything that exists, how the hell do you expect to even have the time to improve? By the time you even realize that you've respawned, you're dead again. It's like that for a lot of people in all sorts of games, PvP and non-PvP games alike.

 

[Mohrgan]

I don't care at all what you do or don't do, it doesn't affect me. I just find it puzzling that people don't want to improve themselves, but good luck in life with that attitude and all.

What happens in a video game doesn't necessarily reflect what would happen in reality. Right? So a guy that works hard and is successful in life might just like to tool around the Galaxy in a yellow submarine, or a guy who has a lot of time on his hands for lack of a job may be able to become the apex predator. How could you tell the difference?

I mean, if you could attribute in-game behavior to RL personality traits, all those horrible things people say about the Ganker/Grifers out there could very well be true. Right?

 

[A C Ender]

That's why I'm still waiting for that yes or no. It's not hard to say no if you think it's a no. Come on, say it. You'll feel better when you get it off your chest.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to my question too. Now I don't think there's any reason to be condescending about it, but if you want to be taken seriously you should probably live by what you preach.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't care at all what you do or don't do, it doesn't affect me. I just find it puzzling that people don't want to improve themselves, but good luck in life with that attitude and all.

It's a video game played as a leisure pursuit, not a life-changing activity. That some don't care to play the way others do is up to them, and them alone.

 

[Mohrgan]

None did. Please stop being dramatic. If you just want to do a particular action with no interruption and face easy NPC enemies (or if you find them challenging), that's fine. But I, and I'm sure many with me, do enjoy an actual challenge. You didn't actually answer my question so I can't tell if you enjoy challenges, though since you said "another player spoiling our fun" I will have to assume you do not until you tell me otherwise.

I don't see a requirement for a video game has to be a challenge? People face plenty of challenge in RL, a video game, even one so cool as E|D, could very well just be a way to relax from the challenges of everyday. The day I need a video game, to find self worth, or challenge myself, it will be all over.

 

[Havvk]

I'm still waiting for you to respond to my question too. Now I don't think there's any reason to be condescending about it, but if you want to be taken seriously you should probably live by what you preach.

I do, but I cannot answer your question until you answer mine. Please. It's just a yes or no. Not hard.