Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Its called agile management.....or something

CIG pretend to do Agile, but its terribly managed, with a focus on PR rather than deliverables.

Agile can result in things changing over time, but it shouldn't drastically change what is delivered during the sprint. The whole point of doing sprints is to break things down into managable deliverable parts. One thing backers like to say is because its all R&D, never been done before, blah blah. But you don't put R&D work into your delivery plans because that side of things is quite difficult to judge. Really, a lot of the R&D work that they are doing now should have been done years ago... but things like AI, they did start years ago, and still haven't finished. The flight model should have been nailed down years ago, but nope. What they show on the roadmap of this most open development ever should be what they can actually deliver with a high level of accuracy. Putting things on the roadmap for things they have no idea if they can even deliver at all just leaves them wide open for criticism.
 
Star Citizen, as a development project, has so many red flags in my opinion, that it just boggles the mind:

Perpetual Development

Software development, especially game development, that fails to meet its deadlines is so common that I mentally tack on an extra 50% to any estimate given about a game's release or patch. That being said, back in 2012, Chris Roberts promised a release in 2014, and in 2020 Star Citizen is farther than ever from a release.

Cart before the Horse Development

There's no denying that, for the most part, the game looks gorgeous. The million polygon models, the 4k textures, all the attention to minor details lovingly put into the game's assets, this game looks polished. The thing is, games in alpha shouldn't look polished. With the exception of a handful of assets in the game that are used for graphics testing purposes, everything else should be just good enough to get the job done.

The whole point of an Alpha, especially a playable Alpha like Star Citizen, is to get the game's mechanics working, so that they can be tested by the Alpha player base, so that the game breaking bugs, balance breaking exploits, and all the little things you didn't think of, but become obvious once you've got thousands of Alpha players logging in hundreds of hours. It's pointless to spend hundreds of man-hours on detail work on an asset that you discover has a fatal flaw in its current geometry. The polish comes later, after you've solidified the foundation of your game.

Penelope at Her Loom

Chris Roberts has a rather long history of being a perfectionist. As a result, this game's art assets being redone unnecessarily many times, often by a new artist. This is bad enough, but when you combine this the the above, what you basically get are hundreds of artists who are basically paid to look busy, rather than actually be productive.

The Whitewashed Tomb

Chris Roberts seems to be obsessed with the appearance of success. Hundreds of employees working from expensive studios spread across multiple countries. Expensive commissioned artwork, including paintings and sculptures of in-game assets. Slick marketing videos. Lavish spectacles at conventions celebrating the game. These are all things that many successful gaming development companies do... with the profits made from released games they made with their own money. Game development companies that are just starting out try to save as much money as possible, so that they can focus on making their first game.

The Kickstarter Lies

Chris Roberts' Kickstarter pitch, which raised millions of dollars, paints a very different picture of the state of development of Star Citizen in 2012, as opposed to what the reality was. Star Citizen in the 2012 Kickstarter Pitch was a game already a year into development by Chris and "his team," complete with a pre-alpha game play prototype. He claimed to have raised enough money to complete development, and all he needed a few million more to polish it up to AAA standards by 2014. It was only years after the fact that we discovered that all Chris really had was a few CryEngine3 machinima videos... created by CryTech itself as part of a deal with Chris... with Chris' good buddy (and CiG co-founder while also CryTech's attorney) Ortwin negotiating both sides of the deal. :rolleyes:

Shell Company Shell Game

Over the years, Chris Roberts has created dozens of shell companies in support of Star Citizen. While it isn't unusual for a single company to have several subsidiary companies, usually for tax purposes in other countries, dozens reeks of Hollywood Accounting. Speaking of which...

Hollywood Accounting

Hollywood Accounting is a practice where a company removes all profits it makes, by overcharging itself (via its subsidiary companies) for the services it performs. It gets its name from how film studios charge itself massive fees for distribution and marketing a film, do that a film that cost $45 million to make, and grossed over a billion dollars at the box office and home video, actually lost money... thereby cheating the people who actually made the film. We know Chris Roberts (the man) basically sold the rights to Star Citizen to himself (in the form of CiG) for millions of dollars. We know Chris Roberts (the man), plus friends and family, are all on the boards of directors of all those shell companies, and thus drawing salaries from them. Chris Roberts & Company have clearly learned the most important Hollywood lesson well.

There's an old saying: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time is enemy action." The first couple things on my list is just plain old bad project management. It's the rest that transform Star Citizen from a good faith but badly managed attempt to make Chris Roberts' "dream game" into something that reminds me of the ending of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (spoiler warning).

Quality effort post.
 
Phew, that was some catching up. On holiday in the countryside at the moment, but back home for an evening due to stuff.

To distract everyone from the topic, here's a scene from my cottage, looking over the river with the sauna on the left.

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Temperatures are...

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The space sim is already here, I feel playing a space simulator in the alpha.
I can't imagine how. We see the game on Twitch. It's a tech demo. And it's a mess.
I have no theory, it doesn't matter for me who is in charge of the alpha if CIG still try to keep their promises.
It doesn't matter who is in charge or even if they're anonymous! Just take my money!
For what I know, they have try it with Evocati but it was not ready (too buggy or too laggy ?) so they removed it from testing.
Why did they loudly advertise the Idris Attack mission in Inside Star Citizen (even showing the devs playing it), and then quietly drop it? Why hasn't a subsequent Inside Star Citizen explained what happened? The answer is that they are running a scam, with those videos designed to separate people from their money. Those videos aren't "open development" as you claim.
I guess CR had blocked it (after having allowed it) because 'not perfect enough
The most likely answer is that the SQ42 video shares some bad news.
What is a space sim for you ?
How about fast in-system free flight like ED and NMS? SC doesn't have this because it's a tech demo. They can't do the space part (or the MMO part) so they keep adding cities, hallways, trains and hot dogs.

CIG has sold ships for thousands of dollars and made promises to deliver features in a reasonable time frame. Your "personal happiness" with the tech demo doesn't negate that.
 
I am just talking about me. The alpha in its actual state is the software that gave me the more feeling of space since I play videogame.
It doesn't work for you but for me it fully works. The alpha already give me something I was seeking in games since several decades.

What is a space sim for you ? We don't seem to have the same definition of it (I don't say my definition is the good one).

You'll learn (hopefully) that if your "space sim" has ships that are able to yaw, it is no longer a sim and an arcade turrets in space game.

Unfortunately, space ships in SC are able to yaw.
 
The Kickstarter Lies

Chris Roberts' Kickstarter pitch, which raised millions of dollars, paints a very different picture of the state of development of Star Citizen in 2012, as opposed to what the reality was. Star Citizen in the 2012 Kickstarter Pitch was a game already a year into development by Chris and "his team," complete with a pre-alpha game play prototype. He claimed to have raised enough money to complete development, and all he needed a few million more to polish it up to AAA standards by 2014. It was only years after the fact that we discovered that all Chris really had was a few CryEngine3 machinima videos... created by CryTech itself as part of a deal with Chris... with Chris' good buddy (and CiG co-founder while also CryTech's attorney) Ortwin negotiating both sides of the deal. :rolleyes:
As an addendum to this, specifically, let's also examined what this means for the ignorant “scope increase” defence that keeps appearing from people who should know better.

During the crowdfunding campaign, CI¬G suckered people out of just over $2M from the Kickstarter campaign and another $4M from parallel campaigns. For those $6M, they were supposed to deliver:

• A fully dynamic universe, including a dynamic economy simulation.
• Taxed tradelanes that provide protection against pirates and open space where you can get better profit margins in exchange for increased risk.
• Distress systems with reserved instance slots for friendlies.
• Large multicrew ships.
• Proper Newtonian physics and full rigid-body simulations on all ships.
• A fly-by-wire system that translates input into desired output.
• Dynamically calculated ship physics parameters.
• Meaningful component alterations that affect said parameters.
• “10× the detail of current AAA games”
• Hundreds of individually tracked and simulated subcomponents per ship.
• Ships ranging from 1km to 27m
• Support for all manners of input devices
• VR support
• A tablet companion app
• Lots of community updates
• Monthly meetings with CR
• Celebrity voice-acting
• 50 base missions (for SQ42) plus a 16-mission expansion pack
• The persistent universe
• 100 star systems
• Alien derelict ships
• A playable carrier
• Full orchestral music

This is what $6M was supposed to cover. They have now suckered people out of 50× that amount. Never mind the whole nonsense about increased scope and that the extra cash is needed to deliver on those extra promises — how many of those initial items, none of which were removed by the increased scope, have they yet been able to create? Community updates and CR appearances (until those went away) and celebrity voice acting, maybe some individual specific assets such as the derelict. That accounts for, what? One percent? A double-digit percentage, perhaps, if we feel really generous and naively assume that some of these can be trivially duplicated from a prototype template?

For fifty times the initial amount, they've managed to cover the development of, let's generously call it one tenth of the initial deliverables, and those then only represent a small fraction of the expanded scope. Looking at the crowdfunding campaign alone, they're at a 99.8% deficit in terms of value for money — if we include the expanded goals,insi the deficit is 100% ± some insignificant rounding error.

This is why the expanded scope excuse is complete bunk. The expanded scope doesn't actually excuse anything — it only makes an already inexcusable position worse because it only massively expands the list of things they haven't been able to even get started on, and they are already late on the majority of the initial kickstarter promises. It might have explained why a 4× larger game (to take a completely arbitrary number) took 4× longer to complete, but that's not what has happened. An expanded scope does not explain why 1/10th of the game took 4× longer to complete for and why it needed 50× the cash for the project to run that long.
 
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You'll learn (hopefully) that if your "space sim" has ships that are able to yaw, it is no longer a sim and an arcade turrets in space game.

Unfortunately, space ships in SC are able to yaw.

Which is actually quite realistic, but doesn't make for the best gameplay experience.
 
Chris Roberts is the face of this project, he's supposed to be the "secret sauce", the "Colonel Sanders" marketing name that has garnered that investment from his fan base that want a game with his name slapped on a non-existing box. If he's taking a back seat while the project is still an unstable alpha barely a shadow of what he's promised then that's a major problem.
That's a strange angle of criticism to take in the Frontier Forums, given the developments Elite has taken, not just with David Braben's role (and his proposed vision!), but every prominent creative voice in the project. I imagine it must be difficult for the many Elite fans who agree with you on this, to reconcile their opposing narratives about these two parallel trajectories.
 
Chris watched The Last Starfighter when explaining how the flight model should work.

Ach, I do agree with Vape that the whole 'space sim' classification thing gets fairly grognardy at times.

It's still funny that SC has pitched a bunch of 'very space sim' things (flight model physics etc) and repeatedly failed to deliver them though ;)
 
That's a strange angle of criticism to take in the Frontier Forums, given the developments Elite has taken, not just with David Braben's role (and his proposed vision!), but every prominent creative voice in the project. I imagine it must be difficult for the many Elite fans who agree with you on this, to reconcile their opposing narratives about these two parallel trajectories.

I don't see an opposing narrative here.

Braben was still very prominment up to release, and at that point the game became open to criticism, and criticism it gets, in spades.

CR has now gone dark while the game is still in alpha, years away from any possible release, and according to defenders of the faith, cannot be criticised because ITS ALPHA, or as i read in one amusing thread, there is proper criticism and improper criticism. No, it wasn't based on whether the criticism is constructive or whehter the critic has evidence to back up their criticism. It was that criticising the cockpit on a ship was valid criticism. Being critical of the project though is not valid.

You've got to laugh.
 
That's a strange angle of criticism to take in the Frontier Forums, given the developments Elite has taken, not just with David Braben's role (and his proposed vision!), but every prominent creative voice in the project. I imagine it must be difficult for the many Elite fans who agree with you on this, to reconcile their opposing narratives about these two parallel trajectories.

Of course we need to take a look at ED again..../sigh
 
That's a strange angle of criticism to take in the Frontier Forums, given the developments Elite has taken, not just with David Braben's role (and his proposed vision!), but every prominent creative voice in the project. I imagine it must be difficult for the many Elite fans who agree with you on this, to reconcile their opposing narratives about these two parallel trajectories.
Why? Personally, I've been very vocal about how Elite's been spiraling down the loo since Braben and Brookes left the project in other hands, and I'm not alone about it.
 
The most likely answer is that the SQ42 video shares some bad news.
It's worst than that time when they promissed something for Citcon or Christmas and released a the-making-of video instead. Now they can't even get a video out the door.

As an addendum to this, specifically, let's also examined what this means for the ignorant “scope increase” defence that keeps appearing from people who should know better.

During the crowdfunding campaign, CI¬G suckered people out of just over $2M from the Kickstarter campaign and another $4M from parallel campaigns. For those $6M, they were supposed to deliver:

• A fully dynamic universe, including a dynamic economy simulation.
• Taxed tradelanes that provide protection against pirates and open space where you can get better profit margins in exchange for increased risk.
• Distress systems with reserved instance slots for friendlies.
• Large multicrew ships.
• Proper Newtonian physics and full rigid-body simulations on all ships.
• A fly-by-wire system that translates input into desired output.
• Dynamically calculated ship physics parameters.
• Meaningful component alterations that affect said parameters.
• “10× the detail of current AAA games”
• Hundreds of individually tracked and simulated subcomponents per ship.
• Ships ranging from 1km to 27m
• Support for all manners of input devices
• VR support
• A tablet companion app
• Lots of community updates
• Monthly meetings with CR
• Celebrity voice-acting
• 50 base missions (for SQ42) plus a 16-mission expansion pack
• The persistent universe
• 100 star systems
• Alien derelict ships
• A playable carrier
• Full orchestral music

This is what $6M was supposed to cover. They have now suckered people out of 50× that amount. Never mind the whole nonsense about increased scope and that the extra cash is needed to deliver on those extra promises — how many of those initial items, none of which were removed by the increased scope, have they yet been able to create? Community updates and CR appearances (until those went away) and celebrity voice acting, maybe some individual specific assets such as the derelict. That accounts for, what? One percent? A double-digit percentage, perhaps, if we feel really generous and naively assume that some of these can be trivially duplicated from a prototype template?

For fifty times the initial amount, they've managed to cover the development of, let's generously call it one tenth of the initial deliverables, and those then only represent a small fraction of the expanded scope. Looking at the crowdfunding campaign alone, they're at a 99.8% deficit in terms of value for money — if we include the expanded goals,insi the deficit is 100% ± some insignificant rounding error.

This is why the expanded scope excuse is complete bunk. The expanded scope doesn't actually excuse anything — it only makes an already inexcusable position worse because it only massively expands the list of things they haven't been able to even get started on, and they are already late on the majority of the initial kickstarter promises. It might have explained why a 4× larger game (to take a completely arbitrary number) took 4× longer to complete, but that's not what has happened. An expanded scope does not explain why 1/10th of the game took 4× longer to complete for and why it needed 50× the cash for the project to run that long.
And in SC developement every $ = $$$$$ of normal game development.
 
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It's not a Ponzi, if it was early backers would have got something back for suckering more people in :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Yeah maybe a little carried away, but there's definitely a small pyramid at the top of the larger pyramid of Roberts insiders who have profited. Plus think about the ability to provide free ships to people to spread the word as content creators or even just people to go sing praise. Those ships they can just create out of thin air have at least some monetary value and through the grey market who knows how many people made some bank. When you think about it he created the ultimate money laundering mechanism, to bad the value is rapidly dropping now but i'm sure it had a great run.

The second CR knew his engine choice couldn't deliver all the stuff he's been selling but continued selling anyway this thing turned foul.
 
It's worst than that time when they promissed something for Citcon or Christmas and released a the-making-of video instead. Now they can't even get a video out the door.

Ahhh - those days where animation content simply needed one final polishing sweep to meet the exacting standards of Genuine Roberts - they were so nearly there, that stuff was just round the corner - the go-no-go meeting hung on a knife edge, and was so content worthy in and of itself they filmed it as content instead!

Whatever happened to all that anyway? Did any of it ever make it to the light of day?
 
That's a strange angle of criticism to take in the Frontier Forums, given the developments Elite has taken, not just with David Braben's role (and his proposed vision!), but every prominent creative voice in the project. I imagine it must be difficult for the many Elite fans who agree with you on this, to reconcile their opposing narratives about these two parallel trajectories.


Chris's current withdrawal, before any kind of delivearable has made it to market, is spicier due to his Freelancer history. IE getting deposed by the money men due to scope creep / lack of delivery.

Now that CIG has some big ole investors, and with this latest SQ42 release date having some extra weight to it (as it's presumably a vehicle for those investors to get some cash back), him going AWOL is at minimum eyebrow raising.

For whatever you may feel about Braben going dark between big releases (I don't think it's that weird personally ;)), he is still doing the rounds talking up ED in news interviews and the like, retweeting images of purty planets etc. What's interesting about Chris's drawdown is that he doesn't seem to be doing any public-facing media stuff at all, no press interviews etc anymore. Just the very occasional 'Pillar Talk' for the fans [EDIT: Oh and as AgonyAunt pointed out, the ones rolled out this year all seem to have been filmed in 2019 at Citcon]. Interpret that as you wish ;)

(FWIW, I'd agree with the other implied parallels, that Braben has form on both dream crafting, and pre-selling those dreams. But would note that Roberts has turned both aspects up to 11, and there's daylight between the two as a result. Perpetual dream-selling will do that ;))
 
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