in a world, where even one person likes slushes, i dont care about realism.
Does Frontier think Jaguars are Leopards?
- Thread starter -LUCA-
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I don't play this game, but the title got me to read this post. FD isn't the only company that get their cats mixed up. RDR2 online as well as their story mode insist on calling cougars aka mountain lions aka pumas etc Panther's. I concur that most people don't know nor actually care that a Panther is actually appears to be solid black in color. However, though it does appear to be black, when the light is just right or you can get close enough such as I was able being a previous owner of one. They actually have the same marking as a leopard; Meaning they have spots.
again, this is not about claims.
This is about Jaguar's requirements, more specifically about this line from OP
That's all.
If Lions/Tigers do not require Climbing Spaces in their enclosures, Jaguars should not require them either
If you are going to twist arguments, that's your business.
OP made claims - quoted them and I debunked them - you don't see this - fine by me.
Explained the requirements, if you don't get it - that's fine. If you look in actual zoos, you can see the differences more clearly. Or youtube/google etc.
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I think you are missing the big picture here. Nobody has claimed jaguars can't climb, nor should their animations for climbing in the game be removed. It's just common knowledge that arboreal life is not part of a jaguar's ecology. All those examples you gave, like hunting from trees or running into one when being chased by hunters is typical behavior of animals that can climb. If chased in an open area, any big cat or bear would run up to a tree to get away. As for using trees for ambush, any sophisticated predator would use its surrounding environment to its advantage when ambushing prey. Tigers are also known to pounce prey using the height advantage and element of surprise trees provide, not because they were already up there. That's just hunting strategy, similar to how running into a tree is a flight strategy since dogs can't climb but cats and bears can. I personally don't know of any instance where lions have used trees to ambush, but I would assume that's because of the lack of trees in the savanna environment. A heavier cat, the Siberian tiger is known to utilize this hunting strategy.
At the end of the day, all climbing animals in zoos are usually given "elevated activity spaces" for their enrichment, even polar bears. Such areas are required in all major care manuals, but that's not the same thing as the climbing space need as defined by the game. Then half the roster would have climbing needs. This is why jaguars shouldn't have that need, but have swimming space requirements instead.
It seems like I've remembered correctly that Mountain Lions are rarely also called Panthers (but it seems like it mostly happens in the US that they are called Panthers). Maybe they were called Panthers more often in the Wild West when (at least I assume) Leopards and Jaguars weren't that well known by most People. There is also the Florida Panther which is a Subspecies of Mountain Lion that mostly lives in Wetlands
Forgot to reply to this one. I don't support the idea that if something doesn't show on the AZA manuals it shouldn't be taken seriously. I work with wild and captive animals on a daily basis for over two decades and from day one I have supported and recommended gathering information from multiple scientific sources. However, your comment about the AZA care manuals showed me you underestimated the time and effort put into each manual during its preparation, therefore wanted to point out that the AZA manuals should be taken more seriously. And in our case, elevated activity space, the AZA (and any other credible source) recommends elevated activity spaces for all big cats and bears. With the exception of the Asiatic black bear, non of the big cats and bears have that need in the game. So the difference is already defined by the game that arboreal needs and elevated activity spaces are two separate things, one addressed with only climbing animations, the other with both the animations and habitat requirements. This is why for consistency, the jaguar should also follow suit. Or just about every other climbing animal should be getting a climbing space requirement as it is recommended by every care manual you can find.
Debunking? Non of those links debunk anything I said. They instead support the first source I provided myself. I think you misunderstood the purpose of my post. It was me who linked the source that shows proof jaguars can actually climb. Why would I link that and then try to claim the opposite? That link was a great example to how people can be misguided for a long period of time assuming something is right or wrong. Which then leads to ignorance. For decades people thought jaguars couldn't climb up trees, so much so that it had reached myth level. People were mislead because jaguars (or tigers, lions and big bears) climbing is a rather rare occurrence and occurs only under certain circumstances that most people don't have the privilege to witness. Since the second half of the 20th century this belief slowly disappeared as we learned more about their behavior.I can debunk that one with a quick google result:
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2011/11/jaguar-spotted-first-time-two-years-arizona/
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_CcG8nv-o
https://www.123rf.com/photo_82478293_two-jaguars-sleeping-on-tree.html
https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/387474/view/jaguar-resting-in-a-tree-in-belize
(if this happens to be leopard pics, sry - just going with google on this one
Hunting from trees are more examples, but this one is just cool:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9901694/jaguar-kills-crocodile-leaping-river-tree/
I've only seen a few jaguars in zoos actually (or remember seeing them) but most of those exhibits have climbing options (or elevated platforms, which also qualifies as the same in PZ)
I knew about Artis, most times I've been there - seen 1 or 2 using those trees in the first video.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwcYF3-3SRQ
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zm7DaGjSQc
AZA is mostly used a minimal requirements rule book. A lot of zoos mix info/data from several sources to create the ideal situation. Could be an expert from SA, who says their jaguars behave better when they have those climbing options.
Swimming space should be obvious, even underwater they are good swimmers. They should even add/improve those animations when they figured out diving/swimming in PZ.
As seen in the link I provided, even today people feel the need to take pictures of mere paw marks on branches to prove people jaguars can climb. I used that as an example to show how easily we can be misguided and thus we should use scientific sources instead. Any scholarly text, book or paper on jaguars would clearly show how little climbing plays a role in their lifestyle. But instead you did the very thing I warned against, posted a few photos and videos with no scientific analysis on what they signify. Taking things at their face value can be deceiving. That was the whole point of my post.
IMO a climbing requirement, while not necessary, isn't really an issue.
Case in point, many zoos add climbing platforms and such for their cheetah, which are not habitual climbers at all. In captivity they do use platforms, mostly to sleep and sunbathe, and to get a good view of their surroundings. Same with lions. In Planet Zoo, I add climbing equipment for any animal that can use it, even if they don't need it, because that's pretty much what most decent real zoos do (even my local, which is very low budget, has climbing options to a certain degree for their lions and cheetah).
In any case, half the responses to this thread are useless nitpicking - the question was never about whether jaguars can climb in real life, but whether they need to. Frontier has gotten their information wrong with a good few animals in the game so doubtless they got it wrong with the jaguar, too, but in this case I don't think it matters all that much. If you're putting in big cats, climbing equipment does nothing to hurt them, both in real life and in the game. In fact the enrichment opportunity is a net positive.
Case in point, many zoos add climbing platforms and such for their cheetah, which are not habitual climbers at all. In captivity they do use platforms, mostly to sleep and sunbathe, and to get a good view of their surroundings. Same with lions. In Planet Zoo, I add climbing equipment for any animal that can use it, even if they don't need it, because that's pretty much what most decent real zoos do (even my local, which is very low budget, has climbing options to a certain degree for their lions and cheetah).
In any case, half the responses to this thread are useless nitpicking - the question was never about whether jaguars can climb in real life, but whether they need to. Frontier has gotten their information wrong with a good few animals in the game so doubtless they got it wrong with the jaguar, too, but in this case I don't think it matters all that much. If you're putting in big cats, climbing equipment does nothing to hurt them, both in real life and in the game. In fact the enrichment opportunity is a net positive.
Jaguars are not habitual climbers at all, therefore they should either share not having unique climbing need among other cats, or all should have it. They shouldn't stand out as the only cat with that requirement. I agree with the last post. Even cheetahs are given platforms.
Making a quick Google search doesn't really prove much. Here's a bunch of pictures showing:
Lions in trees
www.alamy.com
Lions sleeping in trees
www.sapeople.com
www.alamy.com
Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jwolson/8913120/
Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jwolson/8913120/
A whole pride of lions on a single tree
Tigers resting on a tree
www.alamy.com
Polar bears on trees.
Non of those images prove those animals need to spend time on trees.
I also checked the "hauling prey up a tree" you mentioned about the jaguar article in Wikipedia, it clearly says "to avoid flood levels", or in other words to prevent its well earned dinner from being carried away by the current. Comments like this make me question the motive behind all the image posting and the misleading quoting. Non of those links debunk anything, they are just instances of animal behaviour and nothing scientific.
Anything can be twisted in any direction. We should be careful not to do this.
Note: Sorry for the strange link locations appearing next to one another instead of below. I tried to fix it, doesn't work.
Making a quick Google search doesn't really prove much. Here's a bunch of pictures showing:
Lions in trees
Lion in tree Stock Photo - Alamy
Download this stock image: Lion in tree - BAGKYK from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.
www.alamy.com
Big male lion in a tree - A Step Ahead
www.astepahead.es
Lions sleeping in trees
Excuse Me, There's A Lion in My Tree - SAPeople - Worldwide South African News
To celebrate the third annual World Lion Day (10 August 2015), here are some of our favourite photos of lions in Africa...chilling in trees. According to
www.sapeople.com
Sleeping Lion In A Tree Stock Photo - Alamy
Download this stock image: Sleeping Lion In A Tree - T153YY from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.
www.alamy.com
Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jwolson/8913120/
A whole pride of lions on a single tree
Tigers resting on a tree
Tiger using a tree as a vantage point to see a birds eye view Stock Photo - Alamy
Download this stock image: Tiger using a tree as a vantage point to see a birds eye view - FW7G0H from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.
www.alamy.com
Polar bears on trees.
Non of those images prove those animals need to spend time on trees.
I also checked the "hauling prey up a tree" you mentioned about the jaguar article in Wikipedia, it clearly says "to avoid flood levels", or in other words to prevent its well earned dinner from being carried away by the current. Comments like this make me question the motive behind all the image posting and the misleading quoting. Non of those links debunk anything, they are just instances of animal behaviour and nothing scientific.
Anything can be twisted in any direction. We should be careful not to do this.
Note: Sorry for the strange link locations appearing next to one another instead of below. I tried to fix it, doesn't work.
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Note: I agree that Jaguars should not have the climbing need, but you said they never sleep in trees, but they do... One photo is enough to debunk the statement, even if rare.
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Basically this ^^
I thought Cheetahs can't climb or are they for the Cheetahs to jump from one Platform to another?
I'm not completely sure but I think for some Reason Polar Bears can't climb in the Game
I hope they will change it. It would be awesome to see one of my Polar Bears on the Tree in their Enclosure
Oh I see now why this has been so confusing. I never claimed jaguars can't sleep in trees. Don't and can't are two different things. Lions and tigers can also sleep in trees, but they typically don't. If something makes its way into fun facts and game mechanics, it should be a trait that defines an animal. You can find images of crocodilians and turtles sleeping in an overhanging tree, that doesn't make them an animal that sleeps in trees. Jaguars were clearly mistaken for leopards with that fun fact. The combination of that fun fact and the habitat requirements in the game clearly showed me they were mistaken for leopards when being added to the game. According to the game their tree climbing is stressed out multiple times as a defining trait, not a behavior they can perform. I hope this explanation once and for all clears all the confusion about my post.
Also in response to @NL_Mutso this ⬆ is why people have been stressing out the differences between animals having animations and having requirements. It is not to troll you, they are trying to explain you the difference between can't and don't. Seems like almost everyone understood my point except for you. But you shouldn't punish them for trying to explain what you misunderstood.
Besides the marking being different between a jaguar and a Leopard, another thing that sets them apart is. Though a leopard can and will on occasion if and when it's needed, swim to the other side. Jaguars can and do make deliberate usage of lakes and river's to hunt and catch one of their favorite meals which is Caiman's.
Well said. Even animals like cheetahs and polar bears are given platforms and boulders to add variation to the terrain height or for their enrichment as well as.vantage points, opportunity to sunbathe and exercise. This is why I think it is crucial to:
1) Either make it shared for all animals that would normally be given an opportunity to climb such structures in real zoos, or
2) Keep it to the animals that actually have arboreal space needs.
I believe Frontier has opted with the latter, by excluding most animals that can climb, like lions, tigers, big bears out of the equation. The only major exception to this seems to be the jaguar. Which breaks the consistency.
On the other hand in the case of giant pandas and Chinese pangolins, they too are an exception in that they would normally require arboreal space to a degree.
So, my view on this case is, if Frontier wants the keep sticking to 2), then jaguars should swap places with giant pandas and pangolins, or switch to 1) where all animals that can climb and benefit from it in any way could be given small climbing space requirements, including jaguars, lions, tigers and big bears. After all any professional care manual would recommend that. But making this a solid requirement in the game would come with its own issues, therefore I would stick to option number 2.
Either way, I will always keep offering my animals platforms and climbing structures to mimic real life facilities. But for the sake of realism, game mechanics need to be consistent.
Now that the thread has cooled down, I want to clarify what I meant there. By them not being climbers I meant that as a species defining trait. An analogy would be the difference between a drinker and someone drinking socially. Gorillas for instance aren't climbers, but they do climb. A climber would be an orangutan that has a lifestyle built around climbing.
As for my two cents on the overall topic:
All big cats, bears and primates are recommended to have at least some sort of climbing frame, platform or naturally formed (logs, rocks, boulders, dead trees) climbing opportunity. However, as others have mentioned, other climbing animals that would be better off with climbing spaces, even ones that are partly arboreal (Chinese pangolin, giant panda, the two brown bears) don't have the requirement in the game. If anything, these species should be getting a climbing space requirement before the big cats we currently have in the game.
It actually makes sense why cheetahs and polar bears don't have climbing animations in the game. They are both very poor climbers. Polar bears have very recently diverged from brown bears but their claws are not the best for climbing. Same with cheetahs, both animals need ideal circumstances to be able to climb, like a somewhat slanted, rugged tree. The current climbing system/animations in the game would look really awkward on them, as they shouldn't be able to go up smooth vertical poles, let alone that quickly. Ramps or slanted "traversable logs" would be better options for those two.I thought Cheetahs can't climb or are they for the Cheetahs to jump from one Platform to another?
I'm not completely sure but I think for some Reason Polar Bears can't climb in the Game
I hope they will change it. It would be awesome to see one of my Polar Bears on the Tree in their Enclosure
This is basically how a cheetah climbs a tree when it has to:
Since hyenas are not capable of following it up trees, its best option was to find the most suitable tree and climb.
Lions react the same way when outnumbered by hyenas, but of course they are much more capable of climbing trees than cheetahs. Ignore the hideous clickbait thumb.
Edit: One exception to polar bears climbing in the game could be cubs. If technically possible from an engine point of view, cubs could be given the ability to vertically climb, given their lighter weight. @Urufu1997 that way you can have your climbing polar bears in your zoo
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Interesting. I really thought it would be impossible for Cheetahs to climb on Trees