'Experimental' VR branch for Odyssey launch
- Thread starter VR Golgot
- Start date
Cheers for the support 
I suspect it's two key things:
Character motion is potentially more nausea-inducing:
Classic player locomotion involves a really high frequency of yaw spins, which are a significant nausea trigger. I suspect that (alongside other locomotion actions like any acceleration involved with jetpacks / strafing etc) these build up over time quite easily into a greater nausea issue than the SRV. (The SRV also comes with the bonus aspect of the cockpit setting, which acts as an 'attentional anchor' and lessens nausea).
Some nausea mitigation will need to be attempted:
They'll still want to put some effort into nausea mitigation. (They're not just trying to attract vets, they're trying to attract noobs as well). For the SRV they added an option for horizon levelling at least, to lower the impact. For 'legs' the industry standard nausea mitgations start getting a bit more involved. (Controllers for controller-relative motion etc, which merely by their addition lead to a cascade of other dev.)
TLDR is probably: They don't want to cause new customers to get sick. Not if they can avoid it anyway.
I don't begrudge them that. And nausea mitgation is where the industry norms are kind of set now. It just takes some dev to hit those norms.
Thanks G! Yep I think there'd be a real mollifying effect on veteran players in many quarters if they could manage basic access to existing stuff (ship flight / SRVs etc), and some rough and ready access to some of the Legs content.
I suspect it's two key things:
Character motion is potentially more nausea-inducing:
Classic player locomotion involves a really high frequency of yaw spins, which are a significant nausea trigger. I suspect that (alongside other locomotion actions like any acceleration involved with jetpacks / strafing etc) these build up over time quite easily into a greater nausea issue than the SRV. (The SRV also comes with the bonus aspect of the cockpit setting, which acts as an 'attentional anchor' and lessens nausea).
Some nausea mitigation will need to be attempted:
They'll still want to put some effort into nausea mitigation. (They're not just trying to attract vets, they're trying to attract noobs as well). For the SRV they added an option for horizon levelling at least, to lower the impact. For 'legs' the industry standard nausea mitgations start getting a bit more involved. (Controllers for controller-relative motion etc, which merely by their addition lead to a cascade of other dev.)
TLDR is probably: They don't want to cause new customers to get sick. Not if they can avoid it anyway.
I don't begrudge them that. And nausea mitgation is where the industry norms are kind of set now. It just takes some dev to hit those norms.
Thanks G! Yep I think there'd be a real mollifying effect on veteran players in many quarters if they could manage basic access to existing stuff (ship flight / SRVs etc), and some rough and ready access to some of the Legs content.
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I would get EDO if I could do all cockpit stuff. Even if it meant having to take off HMD for space legs
I have no idea why I would ever go on foot tbh.
Maybe to stare up at my Anaconda to see how big it is?
I have no idea why I would ever go on foot tbh.
Maybe to stare up at my Anaconda to see how big it is?
Yeah some of the key assumptions I’m making with this pitch are that Legs are a primary blocker, and that the ship & SRV aspects could be be made VR compliant in EDO with relative ease. (Although this may not be the case, there could be other issues like: Starting VR from scratch with a new API, performance issues with new planetary tech, etc etc).
It does seem a shame not to at least bridge the existing ship & SRV VR experience to EDO ultimately.
And I say that as someone very interested in VR Legs in EDO
It's a funny one.
I am half hoping the main issue is a technical one e.g. some new special effect has no 3d information so can't be rendered in 3d, even as billboard sprites.
But there has been hints that it might be because of nausea, that would be galling because it feels too nanny like and I don't think I need protecting.
I don't even think the nausea issue should be considered. Or if it is considered, do as the early devs did like in Dirt Rally where there is a traffic light system for each route with green being safe on stomachs and red being least safe.
I am half hoping the main issue is a technical one e.g. some new special effect has no 3d information so can't be rendered in 3d, even as billboard sprites.
But there has been hints that it might be because of nausea, that would be galling because it feels too nanny like and I don't think I need protecting.
I don't even think the nausea issue should be considered. Or if it is considered, do as the early devs did like in Dirt Rally where there is a traffic light system for each route with green being safe on stomachs and red being least safe.
The issue with nausea is doubtless more for VR noobs, and for those veterans who have perpetual issues with it. (Back in the early days the Rift guys reckoned '60% of people feel some nausea, but get better over time / 20% always feel nausea / 20% never feel nausea'). I think player adjustment rates have probably improved, likely due to improved design techniques. (The onset of 'onward style' motion seemed to coincide with lower self-reporting of issues amongst hardcore players).
To get those gains though, you have to do the design work...
I don't think ED particularly lends itself to a simple traffic light system. (How do you pre-judge the severity of different proc gen surfaces? Can you really rule whole DLC features as 'Stop: Nausea Danger'? Could you designate all Legs activies 'Red'?. I don't think so, not when it's a major pillar of your DLC. I think they'll want to at least get them to 'Amber', through the more recognised design steps, such as adding controller-relative locomotion etc).
I can totally understand a company not wanting to make their customer feel ill. It's a bad look. It leads to a bad rep for your game.
And I can also understand an industry that's looking to expand wanting to cater to new users as much as to dedicated veterans.
But I also think FDev could significantly placate us long-term backers, and avoid upsetting newer players, if they were to offer a 'veteran friendly' experi build in the meantime
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Just posting here to show my support for the idea. I don't think being worried about nausea should stop them from making it compatible with VR - all they would need is a warning saying 'hey, some aspects of this may cause nausea, play in vr at your own risk'. I'm sure most people playing ED in VR have strong VR legs. Making it experimental at first is a great way to work it in.
if it is all about puking then it’s utterly pathetic. No one has puked themselves to death in VR, ever.
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It has been said umpteen times already - with the SRV without horizontal lock as a default setting ED had one of the most nausea inducing mechanic of all of the VR games I know. I was really glad when I found out about the horizontal lock feature because I could barely drive for more than 20 minutes before.
So I find it rather tiring if they claim that they abandoned VR support due to concerns over the well-being of their users. Apart from that, there are a whole range of VR FPS which show how easily it can be done well.
The more delicate part is the balancing between flat gamers who love to jump around like a bunny (funnily enough I recall only very few movies covering say WWI in which I see the soldiers jump out of the trenches of Verdun and hop their way all over the battle field to spray headshots mid-air in 3 m height while making 5 m leaps...
I admittedly never played it but it might have been a good idea to check out e.g. ARMA III to see how it could be made more realistic, which then should also translate to VR much easier and without massive advantages for either style of play.
But okay, we are discussing the pretext FDev handed out instead of the actual true motivation - they don't see enough money in the VR market and want to focus their decreasing investments into ED to get anything out at all. And after Odyssey there will be - Exodus. But not as a release by FDev but a movement of users... because they are no longer invested in the game and we are witnessing it in the late autumn of its life span. The first snow flakes are already falling...
So I find it rather tiring if they claim that they abandoned VR support due to concerns over the well-being of their users. Apart from that, there are a whole range of VR FPS which show how easily it can be done well.
The more delicate part is the balancing between flat gamers who love to jump around like a bunny (funnily enough I recall only very few movies covering say WWI in which I see the soldiers jump out of the trenches of Verdun and hop their way all over the battle field to spray headshots mid-air in 3 m height while making 5 m leaps...
I admittedly never played it but it might have been a good idea to check out e.g. ARMA III to see how it could be made more realistic, which then should also translate to VR much easier and without massive advantages for either style of play.
But okay, we are discussing the pretext FDev handed out instead of the actual true motivation - they don't see enough money in the VR market and want to focus their decreasing investments into ED to get anything out at all. And after Odyssey there will be - Exodus. But not as a release by FDev but a movement of users... because they are no longer invested in the game and we are witnessing it in the late autumn of its life span. The first snow flakes are already falling...
I don't think anyone has claimed nausea is fatal
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Sure, but doesn't that demonstrate that the anti-nausea technique they included is effective? And that you personally are glad they implemented it?
(Personally I don't have issues with the SRV, and don't use the horiz-lock, but the point would be to make each part of the game as accessible as possible no? To a range of players etc)
Do other VR FPS show it's easy to do? They show it can be done, for sure
But if you dig beneath the surface, there's also plenty of dev & R&D involved in doing it right. I'd turn to my favourite little example of how dev can cascade out from seemingly simple additions:
- Add motion controllers (for nausea limitation techniques, and to support expected functionality like hand-held weapons)
- Model hands to hold the weapons. Network those weapons and hands so other players can see where you're shooting.
- Add inverse kinematic arms, and network them, because floating hands would look daft in a 'realistic' game like ED.
It's all do-able. But it's not necessarily 'easy' or straightforward.
This is another aspect they'd likely have to consider, yep. It's notable that there are hardly any FPS/flatscreen PvPs out there. Rec Room is the only one of any standing.
I'd agree that the low ROI in the VR market is almost certainly the primary driver of this decision. (We'll have to disagree on their investment decreasing more broadly, but that's one for another thread
)They're far from alone in being risk averse about plunging significant dev into the VR market.
But they are more unique in that they're dropping / pausing VR support for an existing franchise. Which is why I think it's worth pitching this solution. It's a 'budget' option, that would still allow them to maintain a degree of fan service
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I’m working on the theory that they could do this while still primarily focusing the EDO flatscreen launch almost entirely.
(IE theoretically it could be the work of a few passionate devs, shortly after launch, or accrued in the gaps during this 6 month+ build to launch. It would depend on their own areas of the game hitting schedule / dead time due to blockers elsewhere / production endorsement & budgeting etc. But it’s not totally impossible
)I’m working on the theory that they could do this while still primarily focusing the EDO flatscreen launch almost entirely.
(IE theoretically it could be the work of a few passionate devs, shortly after launch, or accrued in the gaps during this 6 month+ build to launch. It would depend on their own areas of the game hitting schedule / dead time due to blockers elsewhere / production endorsement & budgeting etc. But it’s not totally impossible
And that's not going to work for FDev. Like I said in the other thread, history is not on their side with 'not at launch' when it comes to ED - PSVR is just one example. About all that will work for them is a statement that says whether VR will be included at all and when it can be expected, at a minimum industry standard. If there is one thing I have noticed, for all the fanfare, VR in ED is from the bargain basement. Actually, it looks like someone took some Oculus example code and mangled it in - they provide a 'mouselook to HMD' example, works just like the cockpit in VR.. GalMap uses some depth tricks, again, another included chunk of Oculus demo code..
I imagine I'm not alone in being a more recent purchaser of ED, I've had it about a year now and I'm done with dodgy updates.. Apparently I'm on Fleet Carriers Patch 4, really? 2 betas and you still need 4+ patches once out in the wild? I'm done with broken mechanics and slipshod fixes, mining being a fine example, the economy another. Apparent removal of features, eg GalNet, is also a great thing. I'm also a bit done with being labelled a wihiteknight for no more than giving FDev the benefit of the doubt. The salt another bug-ridden update will cause would taint all the fresh water on the planet - and I'll be right with them for a change.
Don't give them another opportunity to halfass another aspect of this game. For all the hype, Fleet Carriers are not really all they were claimed to be, I'd rather not give them an opportunity to do similar to VR.
I can see where you are coming from there: If there is anything I have been part in repeatedly perpetrating over the past few years, at work, it is seeing temporary quick just-make-it-kinda-work-so-we-can-finish-today's-production botch-job "repairs" de facto turning permanent "solutions", as they disappear unrevisited in the mists of time, streamers of duct tape flapping a frayed wave of goodbye in the wind.
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Only FDev knows what can work for them friend
The only point of this thread is to get the pitch discussed somewhere up the chain (and to signal any community support for such an idea).
If FDev decide it’s workable, then great. If not, no biggie.
I’ve been here since beta
. And everything you’re discussing there is the downside of the focus on EDO. (IE the shift from seasonal PDLCs).EDO will be a notable step up on what you’ve experienced. Regardless of whether there’s a VR experi branch tacked on or not.
There’s plenty of salt in the VR community specifically already. Salt is guaranteed in that area.
Yep, this is certainly a risk.
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Deleted member 121570
D
That could very easily be wishful thinking. Salt is legit: It could just as easily be complete garbage.
As far as I'm concerned - without VR, it 100% will be. Not even worth £3 on a Steam sale.
It’s a dev run at least as large as the launch game’s dev run.
It’s no stretch to say it will be better than the last year that Kelster has experienced. (A period comprised of lesser output due to the EDO focus. IE: 'these updates will not take the same level of content or size that we have seen from our previous updates in Beyond or Horizons, as the majority of the development team will be focusing on the new era').
Whether it’s good is another matter
I’m only addressing it all, with relevance to VR, to say that: The 2 years of existing EDO full production (1.5 years of that with 'the majority' of the team on it) are unlikely to be wiped out by a nominal VR dev effort in the final 6 months.
EDO would still be chunky in that scenario. Just chunky with a sliver of VR spliced into it
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Replying to show my support for this. I imagine projecting a 2D screen in a VR space would be the 'easiest' method to implement as it is currently used when loading the VR version of Elite, though obviously I can't comment on what the challenge to incorporate that into the main game seamlessly is. A segue screen would be sufficient to transition from one to the other to make it smooth.
This compromise would be perfectly acceptable to me as a stop gap to the eventuality of a full VR FPS experience.
Well, I did some and I'm really NOT impressed.
Some of you wre urging me to try VR before knocking it, well, I suppose you were right, a few days ago I had my mate build me a new PC and while there I tried out his VR, first off to ease me into it I was given a Room, That was realy an eye opener (excuse the pun there) it was actually like being in a VR room, one of the most awkward things was my mate talking to me from almost touching distance but simply nobody being there... weird, but really cool, then we did Elite Dangerous, really unimpressed, I found that the space was kinda flat as was the planet we landed on, and the HUD was blurry and had the colours running into each other and trying to read stuff wasn't something I'd want to do often, yeah I got to look behind me but how many times am I going to want to do that?
Skyrim VR was next up and hell... dude it's like standing on a tea tray and being pulled round on the ice, jeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz, some things are simply best left alone, I suppose it might be ok were I to live in a massive loft apartment with sponge walls but, nah, it's not for me!
PS: nah, I didn't feel pukey.
Some of you wre urging me to try VR before knocking it, well, I suppose you were right, a few days ago I had my mate build me a new PC and while there I tried out his VR, first off to ease me into it I was given a Room, That was realy an eye opener (excuse the pun there) it was actually like being in a VR room, one of the most awkward things was my mate talking to me from almost touching distance but simply nobody being there... weird, but really cool, then we did Elite Dangerous, really unimpressed, I found that the space was kinda flat as was the planet we landed on, and the HUD was blurry and had the colours running into each other and trying to read stuff wasn't something I'd want to do often, yeah I got to look behind me but how many times am I going to want to do that?
Skyrim VR was next up and hell... dude it's like standing on a tea tray and being pulled round on the ice, jeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz, some things are simply best left alone, I suppose it might be ok were I to live in a massive loft apartment with sponge walls but, nah, it's not for me!
PS: nah, I didn't feel pukey.