Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[Vanya Pavlovich]

One of the problems is that to get revenge against PVP'er commander you yourself need to become PVP'er. In real life reasonably rich people can simply hire somebody to get even. Maybe lawyer if they are limiting themselves to strictly legal means. Maybe some shadier types if they prefer somewhat other kind of response. Now Fdev could add player given bounty mechanics. Add to rebuy screen option of posting bond, and upper limit of amount is what ever bounty issuer has in account-minus rebuy. Money is taken upfront and bounty posted in local systems and select popular player systems mission boards, and advertised say week or two. If in that time no one has claimed bounty, it is returned to issuer. Okay somebody really riles up some really deep pocketed miner, and miner posts FC worth of money to take down attacker. I suspect that such system would produce working pvp bounty hunting economy. Especially if one could issue bounties claimable by wings.

EIC does offer bounties for some players. I'm not fully up to date on how often they post them or what kind of ne'er do well threshold they have before posting a bounty on someone. Payment delivered in teh form of void opals or whatever other commodity can be sold for high

Some months back a cmdr created a subreddit for posting/taking player bounties. I suspect that if it had gone well, we would have heard about it in the time since it was created. I'm also quite sure that was not the first attempt at a player bounty system

The underlying idea I'm getting at is player bounties, at least at a community level and not full fledged game mechanic, have been tried and none have taken off.

 

[Leper Messiah]

And no one would exploit the mechanics with their mates...nosir, of course not!

That's only one of the things I said though. So if someone is on someone elses friend list or ever has in the past 12 months (be carfeul who you befriend in game) then you don't get the mission stuff back....or just skip that bit. The other 2 still stand tho. Minimise the losses and people would complain less....then again the salt farming pillocks wouldn't like that.

 

[Just Paul]

One of the problems is that to get revenge against PVP'er commander you yourself need to become PVP'er. In real life reasonably rich people can simply hire somebody to get even. Maybe lawyer if they are limiting themselves to strictly legal means. Maybe some shadier types if they prefer somewhat other kind of response. Now Fdev could add player given bounty mechanics. Add to rebuy screen option of posting bond, and upper limit of amount is what ever bounty issuer has in account-minus rebuy. Money is taken upfront and bounty posted in local systems and select popular player systems mission boards, and advertised say week or two. If in that time no one has claimed bounty, it is returned to issuer. Okay somebody really riles up some really deep pocketed miner, and miner posts FC worth of money to take down attacker. I suspect that such system would produce working pvp bounty hunting economy. Especially if one could issue bounties claimable by wings.

I think this could easily turn into mobs and that's against the ToS.
The bounties should be unlocked from the 2mil per faction it is right now and maybe everybody can have 5 players with open bounties "pinned". Once the pinned player is scanned by a player or sys sec in med or high sec systems, where they are not allied with the controlling faction, the position is updated in the pin. No need anymore to land at stations to see the last position. Also once the "notorious" player pays of the bounties and is clean again they vanish from the pinned list.

 

[Bottom Hat]

EIC does offer bounties for some players. I'm not fully up to date on how often they post them or what kind of ne'er do well threshold they have before posting a bounty on someone. Payment delivered in teh form of void opals or whatever other commodity can be sold for high

Some months back a cmdr created a subreddit for posting/taking player bounties. I suspect that if it had gone well, we would have heard about it in the time since it was created. I'm also quite sure that was not the first attempt at a player bounty system

The underlying idea I'm getting at is player bounties, at least at a community level and not full fledged game mechanic, have been tried and none have taken off.

My God, tell me that is not your real face in your avatar?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I think this could easily turn into mobs and that's against the ToS.
The bounties should be unlocked from the 2mil per faction it is right now and maybe everybody can have 5 players with open bounties "pinned". Once the pinned player is scanned by a player or sys sec in med or high sec systems, where they are not allied with the controlling faction, the position is updated in the pin. No need anymore to land at stations to see the last position. Also once the "notorious" player pays of the bounties and is clean again they vanish from the pinned list.

Ganking random people is not mobbing, but somehow paying to get even is? Of course I do think that having your own commander name in very lucrative "take known terrorist x x down" mission is going to make some interesting time as long as said bounty is active. But then that just produces those consequences of certain playstyles. I think such system would fit nicely to known Elite lore and game setting itself. Irate deep pocketed people paying large sums to shady mercenary characters to get even, whats more fitting to dystopian set up than that?

 

[Leper Messiah]

I'm absolutely cognizant that my playstyle, not just ganking but also the BGS work, really does upset people. Ultimately how they deal with that is their business, not mine.

We all have to remember at the end of the day we're playing a game. I think of it like this: the Stanley Cup playoffs are going on right now in hockey. At the end of a series, both teams form up into a "hand shake line" and congratulate each other on a game well played.

Keep in mind, this is the sport where mere minutes ago you might've been trying to take a player's head off! And I'm not even talking about fighting! Regardless of that you line up, look each other in the eye, and shake hands. There's usually a lot of hugging, too.

Believe me. If there was a hand shake line in Elite I'd line up with every foe I've ever faced. No exceptions.



I'm honestly not sure if I'd go with the Thargoids. I'd be more likely to just leave it all alone and carve out my own space with my people. In a properly opportunistic way, of course!



Playing a villain in game does not justify vilifying me, or anyone else, as one outside of the game.

As far as the toxic stuff goes? It doesn't bother me. In game I'm in game so whatever. Cry some more! Outside of the game? There are things that need saying on this forum and elsewhere. Toxic responses won't stop me from speaking my mind.



It absolutely favors my playstyle. No debate there. Seems to favor Braben's desire for troublemaking in Elite, too!

As far as empathy for the other side... that's exactly why I keep giving this advice:

Choose your mode. Prepare accordingly. Everything else is rubbish.

Rubbish includes any feelings I may have towards your plight. Patting you on the back and wiping way your tears doesn't do anything for your ship's health pool, either!



Nice sentiment and all... but what do people do until then? That's right: choose your mode. Prepare accordingly.



It absolutely wouldn't. People are salty because we dare act antagonistically at all, which brings us to the root of the problem with anti-gankers: they can't accept people not doing what they're told.

Regarding Stanley Cup, thing is Most sports have different leagues to equalise challenge as much as possible, so you don't get pee wee hockey kids playing the top teams...ELite doesn't do that does it, it's one humungous free for all and that's where the importance of player self control comes in.

I bet you'd be tempted though to go Thargoid!

The toxic stuff is just pixels, it shouldn't upset anyone anymore than ship pixels blowing up.

Yes but having more people with a more positive experience of open will be better for all. But indeed it does boil down to mode selction....that's why you'll never get your cross hairs on my ship ever!

Ok maybe not 100% of the salt, but it would stop a lot of it, you'd get you pixels exploding stuff and the other person would get the full value of their ship back. Of course I do understand BGS/PP stuff makes this all the more complex. And as you say it seems like even Braben seems to think the PvP stuff (good and bad) is ok. It's a shame from my point of view as I had high hopes for Elite in the beggining but ultimatly it is one of the most dpressingly disapointing games I own right now, I think I even like Alien: Colonial Marines more!!

edit...god I hate when a single word get's stuck in me noodle and i use it several times.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

EIC does offer bounties for some players. I'm not fully up to date on how often they post them or what kind of ne'er do well threshold they have before posting a bounty on someone. Payment delivered in teh form of void opals or whatever other commodity can be sold for high

Some months back a cmdr created a subreddit for posting/taking player bounties. I suspect that if it had gone well, we would have heard about it in the time since it was created. I'm also quite sure that was not the first attempt at a player bounty system

The underlying idea I'm getting at is player bounties, at least at a community level and not full fledged game mechanic, have been tried and none have taken off.

Going with unofficial channels is somewhat tedious. But offering nice in-game way to do such thing is whole other question.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

EIC does offer bounties for some players. I'm not fully up to date on how often they post them or what kind of ne'er do well threshold they have before posting a bounty on someone. Payment delivered in teh form of void opals or whatever other commodity can be sold for high

Some months back a cmdr created a subreddit for posting/taking player bounties. I suspect that if it had gone well, we would have heard about it in the time since it was created. I'm also quite sure that was not the first attempt at a player bounty system

The underlying idea I'm getting at is player bounties, at least at a community level and not full fledged game mechanic, have been tried and none have taken off.

Mechanically they should be the easiest they've ever been with the introduction of fleet carriers, but even now there's no convenient way to directly transfer credits/assets between CMDRs to facilitate this.

The main issue is: the chances of a bounty hunter getting a kill on an experienced PvPer that isn't willing to die is very slim. Not least because it's hard to consistently find out where someone is and instance with them as the very first barrier. There's no tracking method until you've already instanced with them.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Without risk there is no adventure

I think 'salt' can be extracted without killing or loss of assets/progress. Schadenfreude goes both ways, personally I try to find solutions where all concerned win or are no worse off, I find that more engaging & challenging than simply trying to be annoying for the sake of it or attempting to remove the opportunity to lose.

I think that if a player is looking for a fight, and finds a fight with someone else that also wants to fight, both win. I like the idea of attempting to police 'baddies' out of a system, of bounty hunting and I'd like to see more players talking up that 'noble' challenge. That way in theory at least, everyone wins.

ETA gang warfare also works for me, and I try to play that way, where good & bad are a matter of perspective rather than law.

Well it's the "no worse" off that lies behind my full ship payout. I really do think FD could do more about protecting exploration data, but it's awkward because of the "suicide" thing, unless FD just say self destruct not only destroys the ship but frazzles data as well? The mission thing, well yeah I suppose that's really open to abuse as Zeiman pointed out. So skip that one.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Honestly, I am very skeptical as to whether that would stop the salt, let alone the complaints about "time wasted."

Again - not trying to call anyone out here, and just sharing personal anecdote. Take the comments with whatever, ahem, grain of salt you feel appropriate.

There seem to be a class of player for whom any conflict that they cannot be assured of winning is considered an affront, or a waste of their time, or likewise.

They have, as in one of the examples above, built up in their mind a feeling of superiority based on their ability to destroy the (mostly) toothless NPCs. They are likely quite proud of the (fill in the blank) Anaconda, Corvette or whatever they're piloting, and are pretty sure they are nigh on invincible.

However, when these players are confronted by a competent human opponent, the comfortable illusion is shattered. Suddenly, they can't simply lean on their build - they're getting orbited, their shields are weakening, now they're being rammed. Maybe even "humped." It's awful. Before they know it, they're staring at a rebuy screen.

For this player, in-game compensation in the form of an even more generous rebuy cost won't restore their illusion of power and command over all that they see. That dream has been forever shattered, and they're faced with the choice to either "git gud," so that they too can compete with these human opponents, or use one of the many tools that FDev have provided them to avoid same.

There's no judgment implied or otherwise around that choice. Not everyone is seeking the same thing from the game. Human opponents are clearly intended to provide the Open challenge that the NPCs in Elite Dangerous do not, but that level of challenge is not what every player seeks. And that's OK.

Unlike Soulsborne and other game franchises renowned for their difficulty, in Elite, you have options, and there's no shame in using them. It is, after all, a leisure activity. Find the way to use the game's tools to curate the experience you seek, and be happy.

Some might argue that playing in Open could be considered Elite's version of "hard mode." In that formulation, the players "wasting your time" are in fact providing a different level of gaming challenge, one that it is yours to figure out how to surmount. In that context, the only "wrong" answer is getting mad at the players who are in fact playing the game as intended - the ones "making things go wrong for other people" in the selfsame hard mode of the game. Which is, as Braben has indicated, part of the richness of the Elite experience. His words, not mine.

Well in my defense I've never thought that someone in an Anaconda or Corvette has a right to cry on the forums. I'm more of a keyboard warrior defending the "seals", the weaker targets who get killed for the Lolz and all that millenial supidity.

I also think Braben talks about "meaningful" PvP, of which the latter stuff I mention above does not fall into that category at all.

 

[Danquememe]

There's no tracking method until you've already instanced with them.

You can send them a friend request from the Social page of the main menu, FWIW.

 

[Danquememe]

Did Phisto hold you on high though?

Sadly, not yet.

...YET!

 

[Vetinari]

Gankers should have to log in as a Thargoid character with a Tharg ship.

We'd all know instantly they were a ganker and every security should be after them as would players.

Plus it will help the Thargs balance out the AX

Seriously though, well more seriously, bounties wont work if the ganker is in Solo or PG or get their mates alt account to kill them, buy gold and dump it to both ganker accts.

DB also talks in one of the early vids about, and Im paraphrasing from memory, 'What I dont want from a game is to be griefed by a teenager' - I think a few peeps think this hasnt been delivered in the game.

 

[Danquememe]

View attachment 184727
Meanwhile back in ganker rules fight club.

Ah, there's the "ship humping" I was talking about earlier. Quite effective at bringing down the shields, especially when paired with some engineered frag cannons.

It's... chef's kiss delicious.

I've a video I'd post of the process, but because the CMDR's name is not blurred out, I don't feel comfortable sharing the link.

 

[Riverside]

Wrt exploration data, it is a powerful tool for increasing the influence of a faction that controls a dock, I use it a lot and the main reason I am usually extremely careful to avoid losing a hull is because I am often carrying quite a lot of it

The other use for exploration data, tags & cash value is no longer the issue it was with the introduction of universal cartographics on carriers imo.

 

[Leper Messiah]

and the incredible emergent content the mode provides, missing the big picture of what we're trying to communicate.

The even bigger picture you are missing is people want incredible emergent content that is not combat based. That would maybe make me want in on Open, as it stands it's a combat focussed cess pool that I have no interest in wading in whatsoever.

I look at all the cannon stuff people were doing around the Guardians, now THAT was cool, most of it was above my head.....but the tiniest fraction of that was better than any combat content. Which has been done to death (intended) by countless games. I want something different.


edit oh god the mistakes!! no-one quote it before i edit!

 

[Leper Messiah]

Wrt exploration data, it is a powerful tool for increasing the influence of a faction that controls a dock, I use it a lot and the main reason I am usually extremely careful to avoid losing a hill is because I am often carrying quite a lot of it

The other use for exploration data, tags & cash value is no longer the issue it was with the introduction of universal cartographics on carriers imo.

Yeah I forgot about carriers. Ironically I'm sat on almost 5 billion near Sag A and want to get back to fart about with mining....I just can't be bothered. Hoping Odyssey brings the non combat goodies (and looks promising).

 

[Leper Messiah]

Kinda.

Damn you Phisto, you make me laugh.

 

[Just Paul]

Ganking random people is not mobbing, but somehow paying to get even is? Of course I do think that having your own commander name in very lucrative "take known terrorist x x down" mission is going to make some interesting time as long as said bounty is active. But then that just produces those consequences of certain playstyles. I think such system would fit nicely to known Elite lore and game setting itself. Irate deep pocketed people paying large sums to shady mercenary characters to get even, whats more fitting to dystopian set up than that?

You need to look at the other side of the proposal. How can it be abused?
For example I could put out a bounty on someone who wrote something I didn't like on the forums. Once that person gets killed and the bounty collected I do the same over and over again. That's not mob mentality but harassment.
For mob mentality I do the same but also post everywhere that this person shoot me multiple times and/or said not nice things. Now you will have lots of people suddenly trying to help "poor" me and I created a mob to harass my target.

I'm not against making the life of an in-game criminal harder and the more notorious that CMDR gets the more but plausible in-game challenges they should encounter. But I think most of the player paid bounty proposals sooner or later run foul of the ToS or have lots of unintended side-effects.

The even bigger picture you are missing is people want incredible emergent content that is not combat based. That would maybe make me want in on Open, as it stands it's a combat focussed cess pool that I have no interest in wading in whatsoever.

I look at all the cannon stuff people were doing around the Guardians, now THAT was cool, most of it above my head.....but the tinies fraction of that better than any combat content. Which has been done to death (intended) my countless games. I want something different.

You can do that right now in open. Most of my emergent content is not combat based, or at least was until the griefers showed up. It's all in the communication. Sometimes things start out as combat based but switch to co-op play through the encounter. That's why open is fun, you never know what will happen.

 

[Bottom Hat]

Sadly, not yet.

...YET!

Damn, so you were one of the poor souls he launched off the edge of the cliff then...