VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'm not actually saying it's anything. I have no idea what FDev have planned and don't really have enough information to even think about an interpretation of what they plan. You maybe right, you maybe wrong. Personally I don't know and not going to make a guess on it either. I'm happy to wait and see.

I believe (and I apologise if I am wrong) you have said you like playing in VR but also don't mind playing on a screen.
I guess it is easy to wait and see when either outcome is not really going to affect you too much. For me (and others) ED:O not having VR is practically the same of FD not bothering to release ED:O full stop.
IF FD were to tell players they had decided to pause development of ED:O after all but they MAY release it at some point in the future (but don't worry Horizons will still carry on working) I imagine there would be mountains of salt
For me despite ED:O technically being playable for all intents and purposes it is irrelevant.
Pure VR ED players are a minority but knowing you are a minority but that the majority are ok doesn't really help the minority who ARE affected much.

 

[znôrt]

I can't see them doing that, since horizons was marketed and sold as "made for VR from the ground up". Removing it would represent genuine grounds for complaint. Splitting the game into distinct iterations/DLCs allows them circumvent that charge, even if in reality VR will have been "ditched" for those of us who assumed a future in the game as it evolves.

me neither, right now. but while the 'we want to look at it' possibility doesn't materialize, maintaining the current support will become more of a burden with time, the outlook will change. tbh, "made for vr from the group up" is simply false advertising, braben himself has explained how vr fortituously came to be a thing, the ingame assets clearly show it was an afterthought, and the history of updates and patches has shown it is very low in their priority list. there might even occur a shift in population as some vr players skip odyssey or start to detach from a stagnating (no doom! just hypotesizing!) horizons which would reduce the perceived importance of vr even more.

so, if this rots long enough, i can perfectly see vr becoming a nuisance they would eventually get rid of. there will of course be an official reason which will have nothing to do with the real reason which is: they simply hadn't been interested anymore for a very long while, poor horse just died in silence.

The problem is that decent period of time means you have absorbed the game in 3D and it hasn't been a negative experience. Thus when you go back to pancake you appreciate the difference, in my opinion its a seismic difference. I never believed an HMD would have such a huge impact on my gaming experience

i fully agree, it's a totally different thing. even if i were to play pancake it would be a totally different game. elite in vr has its own category.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I believe (and I apologise if I am wrong) you have said you like playing in VR but also don't mind playing on a screen.
I guess it is easy to wait and see when either outcome is not really going to affect you too much. For me (and others) ED:O not having VR is practically the same of FD not bothering to release ED:O full stop.

I would much prefer to have VR, but can play 2D. I say wait and see because that's is literally all we can do.

IF FD were to tell players they had decided to pause development of ED:O after all but they MAY release it at some point in the future (but don't worry Horizons will still carry on working) I imagine there would be mountains of salt
For me despite ED:O technically being playable for all intents and purposes it is irrelevant.

That is hardly comparable.

Pure VR ED players are a minority but knowing you are a minority but that the majority are ok doesn't really help the minority who ARE affected much.

I never said otherwise. Saying that VR has been ditched though is just not true. It hasn't and doesn't look like it will be considering what FDev have already said. But time will tell.

Whether Odyssey will have VR in the future is up in the air and Fdev themselves may not know for sure at this present time.

 

[Arioch]

I can only speak for myself and express my own opinion which will likely be a minority opinion.

I play games in pancake and in VR. I currently have not found a game in VR I experience motion sickness in, once I got used to the HMD. My issue is in a single game once you have played in VR for a decent period of time, it's very hard to go back. The problem is that decent period of time means you have absorbed the game in 3D and it hasn't been a negative experience. Thus when you go back to pancake you appreciate the difference, in my opinion its a seismic difference. I never believed an HMD would have such a huge impact on my gaming experience, I was always dubious, but it has. I think its the single biggest step change for certain game genre's in many years. If you have never played a single game in VR or never played for a decent period of time in one game you will not reach that tipping point and therefore never experience the problem of moving back. Some HMD users will find the loss of resolution and text readability jars with them and that makes the HMD a negative experience to some degree and would make playing in pancake again easier.

I appreciate I am one voice among a small group of players, but that is how I feel based on my experience.

That is my experience as well - once I’ve played a particular game in VR I’ve no desire to go back to its flatscreen counterpart. Subnautica*, Alien:Isolation, Elite, Doom3, Skyrim, Borderlands2, Fallout4, NMS - for some of those games I’ve binned savegames with hundreds of hours of playtime because there was no going back.

I’ve been gaming since it was a couple of white lines and a beeping square on a black screen, and VR has probably been the biggest paradigm shift in gaming for me. I honestly wasn’t expecting the complete immersion that 6DoF tracking & motion controllers gave in my first Oculus experience (the caravan thing & little robot).

As I’ve said on these forums before, I think if all the “just shut up about VR” posters got to try it in Elite, there’d probably be a lot less of those posts.

*the SubnauticaVR Enhancements mod is required in my opinion

 

[karnivor]

Dear Frontier, I promise to pay you 400 Arx for every week you grind away at providing VR in Odyssey.

Anyone else willing to donate?

 

[znôrt]

Dear Frontier, I promise to pay you 400 Arx for every week you grind away at providing VR in Odyssey.

Anyone else willing to donate?
View attachment 186961

you not only know how to deal with this sort of stuff, you also have a very delicate sense for memes.

F

 

[Red Rocket]

I read all these negative comments from non-VR users that put down VR and I just must laugh. There is a Psychological term argument from ignorance, they are just showing their ignorance and stupidity talking about a subject that know nothing about.

Aren’t you a little bit curious why VR users are so passionate about Elite-VR and commonly make statements like “ Elite is the Best VR game”, “I only play VR games now “ , “No VR No Buy”, “ The only reason I Still play Elite is because of VR”.

As a long-time flat screen hard core gamer, I will now only play in VR, Only reason I bought Elite is because of VR. I have occasionally booted up some of my past flat screen games for nostalgia reasons, remembering a game that I used to enjoy so much to only last 10 to 20 minutes get board and realize it was a bad idea and jump back into VR.

I will try to explain a little of the VR experience for non-VR users.

Playing on a flat screen only gives you the illusion of 3D without and real depth perception. When sitting at a Station with the service menu screen up and a ship fly’s in and goes behind the floating screen. The screen blocks the ship, It gets blocked on flat screen but in VR you just lean over and you can look around the screen and see the ship and the rest of the station.

As you sit in front for your Flat screen playing Elite you also see all the rest of the stuff in your room, Computer, keyboard, wires, pictures on the wall , and lots more stuff. You can tell just how far away your mouse of Flat Screen is that’s your 3D real world depth perception. You know if you can or can’t touch your flat screen if you reach out, now you get that same 3D depth perception in VR. As you look around in VR get a real world 3d depth perception of your complete environment, you see that keyboard to the left on the commander’s chair you just want to reach over and start punching keys it looks so real to life.

After putting on the VR set and you look around and see your flat screen, computer, wires, pictures on the wall, and Room ALL GONE, all you see is your ship no mater where you look. I play with HOTAS and when I look down, I see my avatar using a HOTAS also. When I move the joystick or throttle my avatar mimics the same moves. When blasting of from a planet and going vertical the feeling is so real that I get the sensation of being pushed back in my chair.

Being a hard core gamer and having spent thousands on upgrading Computers and games over the years it wasn’t surprising that I would give VR a try, but what is surprising is to completely step away from flat screen gaming and embrace VR as platform of choice.

So I will stand behind these statements.

Elite best VR game

I only play VR games

No VR No Buy

I still play Elite because of VR

 

[lenna]

They've touched on a few areas:

Nothing truly conclusive, and they sound more like excuses than true reasons. Ultimately, the nausea aspect is a general problem regardless of gameplay mode but one that should be relatively easy to mitigate - for example: allow individual users to tune the sensitivity of the controls, bounded headlock for turning (c/f what ballet dancers train to do, and comparable to the horizon lock FD have already implemented for SRV driving) and this could be implemented with user tuneable bounds too. These are not hard things to do given the VR API(s) are already in use with the main game engine.

I'm sure performance is probably in there too as a concern. And profitability etc. The above are the only aspects they've hedged at to date though.

Performance is unlikely to be as big a concern as it was/is with the X-Series, and like I have already said - they have said little of true substance and just what fundamentally sounds like vague excuses.

That ignores the fact that EDO will be likely be marketed primarily as a 'Legs' product. The addition of character gameplay is the most transformative aspect of the DLC, and the aspect which opens the game up to a whole new, and substantial, audience. It'll most likely be the primary hook for EDO as the marketing ramps up.

Additional functionality may involve legs but you are ignoring the fact that ED is still first and foremost a flight sim - EDO is NOT an independent and separate title, it is part of the ED product and thus we are not talking about a new and separate product but an expansion for an existing game with existing VR support. Just as Horizons added SRVs, Odyssey is just added space legs. ED did not magically turn into a driving game with the addition of SRVs, likewise adding FP mode does not turn it into a FP shooter (at least not in the way you are trying to imply).

Noticing that motion controllers etc are the norm in the marketplace for character gameplay isn't being a 'purist'. It's being a realist. (FDev will doubtless have noticed these norms too, and will wish to at least match them where possible.)

Sorry, but you are talking out of the wrong end and making a mess. Being a realist would be examining ALL the capabilities of your product and implement things in the most appropriate way - for ED, that would ultimately mean sticking to head-look only and using nominal non-VR controls for everything else. They have already set the precedent for that with Hoirizons.

They could have simply kept VR as-is with very little change and added a togglable warning about the nausea concerns on switching to FP mode for VR users if they are truely concerned about that aspect. At least that way, VR users would not miss out on existing functionality such as driving and flying around in VR on the new worlds we notionally expect to be unlocked exclusively for Odyssey.

It is more likely that the "VR is hard" excuse is being used to mask other issues such as they messed up writing some of the shaders so they won't work properly for a 3D display (VR or not). This already happened with the FSS implementation, so it would not be surprising if it were the case.

Like has been already said, people already play ED in VR thus the "people wont play it if it is done bad" is moot - people are already playing ED in VR. If there are issues for some in FP mode even with the basic mitigation measures I have already described then that could be addressed post release.

 

[thistle]

I read all these negative comments from non-VR users that put down VR and I just must laugh. There is a Psychological term argument from ignorance, they are just showing their ignorance and stupidity talking about a subject that know nothing about.

I play both.

 

[lenna]

Elite best VR game

Totally agree (though there may be others that come close) - VR in ED is added in such a way as to give you a strong sense of immersion without getting too entangled with VR-specific control mechanism "fads" that are ultimately a waste of time and too often done poorly (and/or add zero value) in games IMO.

I only play VR games

I don't just play VR games, some games I play would be poor VR candidates for a variety of reasons.

I still play Elite because of VR

Same here, I have played ED both with and without VR and can not go back to non-VR now.

No VR No Buy

As an LEP owner FD already have my money for EDO. However, I would not buy EDO if I could not enjoy any of the added content in VR (would accept no FP-mode if it proved problematic - at least in the short term).

 

[VR Golgot]

Nothing truly conclusive, and they sound more like excuses than true reasons. Ultimately, the nausea aspect is a general problem regardless of gameplay mode but one that should be relatively easy to mitigate - for example: allow individual users to tune the sensitivity of the controls, bounded headlock for turning (c/f what ballet dancers train to do, and comparable to the horizon lock FD have already implemented for SRV driving) and this could be implemented with user tuneable bounds too

I'm so glad nausea is so easy to mitigate. I look forward to your ballet dancer technique taking the industry by storm.

Additional functionality may involve legs but you are ignoring the fact that ED is still first and foremost a flight sim - EDO is NOT an independent and separate title...

If they market it as with Horizons it'll be a £40 approx product for new players. Yes, anyone who wishes to buy it will have to buy the core game as well. But many who are attracted to do so will have been drawn in by its primary gameplay pillars. Which are based on character gameplay. That brings certain expectations regarding gaming norms.

Sorry, but you are talking out of the wrong end and making a mess. Being a realist would be examining ALL the capabilities of your product and implement things in the most appropriate way - for ED, that would ultimately mean sticking to head-look only and using nominal non-VR controls for everything else. They have already set the precedent for that with Hoirizons.

Nope. I'm pointing out that the expectation of motion controller use for VR character gameplay is not a 'purist' expectation. It's a standard expectation in the marketplace.

You could easily prove me wrong by pointing out all the successful VR character games (FPS / RPG / Walking Sim etc) which don't support motion controllers.

Interestingly you just reached for weak-sauce insults instead. I wonder why that could be

 

[Gortron]

I play both.

Good for you. I don’t and I won’t no matter how many people argue about the reasons for not supporting VR in EDO (at launch).

It would be interesting to see how people would react in a parallel universe, where support for monitors was being dropped and EDO was VR only “at launch”.

 

[thistle]

Good for you. I don’t and I won’t no matter how many people argue about the reasons for not supporting VR in EDO (at launch).

It would be interesting to see how people would react in a parallel universe, where support for monitors was being dropped and EDO was VR only “at launch”.

A parallel universe where you wouldn't be able to install your operating system, never mind a VR headset.

Okay.

 

[Gortron]

A parallel universe where you wouldn't be able to install your operating system, never mind a VR headset.

Okay.

Why would that be the case? If it was VR only it would mean you could only play it in VR, perhaps they only implement touch control support and don’t think about supporting keyboard and mouse.

You don’t need an Xbox controller to install Windows and the idea that a Windows games that was VR only means you need to install Windows in VR is ridiculous.

 

[thistle]

Why would that be the case? If it was VR only it would mean you could only play it in VR, perhaps they only implement touch control support and don’t think about supporting keyboard and mouse.

You don’t need an Xbox controller to install Windows and the idea that a Windows games that was VR only means you need to install Windows in VR is ridiculous.

No, I'm pointing out that a VR headset is a peripheral. It, like a hotas or a stream deck, can only be added once you have the operating system installed. You need a monitor to install the operating system. And the VR headset itself.

So the idea of a parallel universe where support for monitors was being dropped and EDO being VR only is ... silly.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Totally agree (though there may be others that come close) - VR in ED is added in such a way as to give you a strong sense of immersion without getting too entangled with VR-specific control mechanism "fads" that are ultimately a waste of time and too often done poorly (and/or add zero value) in games IMO.


I don't just play VR games, some games I play would be poor VR candidates for a variety of reasons.


Same here, I have played ED both with and without VR and can not go back to non-VR now.


As an LEP owner FD already have my money for EDO. However, I would not buy EDO if I could not enjoy any of the added content in VR (would accept no FP-mode if it proved problematic - at least in the short term).

+1 like from me. Some games the hand controllers are a must have for, like "lone echo", however, other games VR head look never mind hand controls would be daft, hello civilization VI. But if a game has both modes, once you've played the VR "version", there is no going back, such as elite.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I'm so glad nausea is so easy to mitigate. I look forward to your ballet dancer technique taking the industry by storm.
If I needed to learn ballet dance to get to play "spacelegs" in VR, I'd be my daughters dance partner one evening a week. But as someone who had to force themselves to develop IRL "sea legs", I really don't think VR spacelegs learning curve is going to be either an insurmountable learning curve for me, nor a reason for me to take up ballet. Although I do acknowledge that many will need to work on "building their tolerance" for such gameplay in VR.

If they market it as with Horizons it'll be a £40 approx product for new players. Yes, anyone who wishes to buy it will have to buy the core game as well. But many who are attracted to do so will have been drawn in by its primary gameplay pillars. Which are based on character gameplay. That brings certain expectations regarding gaming norms.

It's at times like this I wonder what side you are on or are you taking your pragmatic devils advocation a little too seriously? It's less than 24hrs since I was "forum PvP" sparring with Stig Bob and Thistle, and we all sort of agree that Elite is niche if not superniche, like niche cubed. It is primarily a spaceship game, Fand it's never going to be the next COD/BFx/GTA, it's always going to be a flight sim with some FPS/RPG elements. As such it needs to stick true to its identity, which is something it's rather good at being, rather than try to become something that it is not. Elite tried/tries to be a MMOesque Multiplayer game, so it grew "guilds" , in the form of squadrons, as they "guilds" an MMO "norm", and we seen how good that worked out, oh wait!

Nope. I'm pointing out that the expectation of motion controller use for VR character gameplay is not a 'purist' expectation. It's a standard expectation in the marketplace.

Ah! Here we go again, #Elite:Alyx - have you been drinking with Obsidian Ant again? ED is a mildly arcadey space flight "sim" / "rpg" (using those terms loosely) that will now have some first person perspective elements, and hopefully all of which will be viewable in VR. It is for the most part not expected to be a pure balls to the wall full on VR title like Alyx or Boneworks.

For a dude advocating a relatively Janky "experimental" VR mode, you seem awfully intent on setting the team unrealistic/unreasonable expectations of what an "official" VR implementation should be like.

How many times do I have to say I'd be delighted to play VR "Legs" with my hands still on my twinsticks, rather than leave the pilots seat, hands off twinsticks, grope about desk to try and find hand controllers, find them, don them blindfolded, play the FPS element without stubbing my toe on the swivel chair, punching the 65" "monitor" screen on my desk etc.... And I don't even want to think about trying to get back "into the pilots seat" blindfolded by the VR headset.

Elite is a flying game with an element of First Person gameplay - Just gimme VR headlook on foot, with the usual bindings options, and let me work it out for myself. Almost by virtue of playing Elite, I am not a "standard" gamer, and as such I don't/won't hold Frontier to "standard expectations" for a VR FPS ELEMENT to the game.

You could easily prove me wrong by pointing out all the successful VR character games (FPS / RPG / Walking Sim etc) which don't support motion controllers.

+

Interestingly you just reached for weak-sauce insults instead. I wonder why that could be

Ah! you're in THAT mode, I cannae be fracked with THAT mode of golgot tonight, bye now!

PS: shooting down @rlsg like that was IMHO tantamount to 5th columning the VR campaign, FYI: points scored off friendlies are allocated to the opposition.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Actually Civilisation could be very cool in VR, look at tabletop simulator or skyworld.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Good for you. I don’t and I won’t no matter how many people argue about the reasons for not supporting VR in EDO (at launch).

It would be interesting to see how people would react in a parallel universe, where support for monitors was being dropped and EDO was VR only “at launch”.

Emphasis being it's only the game not necessarily the OS that's VR Only... Which was either not noticed by or deliberately misconstrued to form a strawman by Thistle:

A parallel universe where you wouldn't be able to install your operating system, never mind a VR headset.

Okay.

What @Gortron meant, as I'm sure you are fully aware, was imagine windows was as per normal, but Odyssey went down the VR only route of Alyx / Boneworks...

No, I'm pointing out that a VR headset is a peripheral. It, like a hotas or a stream deck, can only be added once you have the operating system installed. You need a monitor to install the operating system. And the VR headset itself.

So the idea of a parallel universe where support for monitors was being dropped and EDO being VR only is ... silly.

It's not entirely inconceivable, Elite's been VR friendly for so long, David Braben commented that even the very first and undoubtedly janky Elite:VR experience on an oculus Development Kit 1/2 headset was a "magical experience", and now VR "is coming of age" with 2160x2160 per eye resolution in the Reverb G2, a developer who had been as won over by the early VR tech could possibly say it was time to go "all in" on VR. Obviously no matter how many pixels you throw at a headset, it's still going to be relatively sucky at word/excel/browser duties, so windows would be monitor based, and VR would remain an optional peripheral, but it could, and has become a mandatory peripheral for certain games, now imagine the ball was on the other foot, and the 2d brigade were getting left behind?

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Actually Civilisation could be very cool in VR, look at tabletop simulator or skyworld.

Stop making it so hard for me to find a reasonable middle ground into which I can credibly mount my soapbox on which I stand to advocate VR!

I know Civ would be so cool in VR, truth be told because of the true stereoscopic 3d effect, any game would benefit from VR. But if I don't leave them something, the pancakers will totally be united by their fear/resentment of our superior gaming experience and this will most likely manifest itself in them uniting in their opposition to VR in future.