"Getting it": A Definitive Discussion

Be warned.

I started this reply as a direct response to the OP - but it's pretty much come out as me defending myself and the hundreds of players on here who are like me, but due to a vocal minority are quickly becoming frustrated with what we see here every day.

Ok, Rant ahead... this one has been brewing for a while now.

OSC2wDyl.jpg


Outside of all of this I'm just a normal guy who gets on with his day to day life.

Inside ED however - I'm one of many facets. FYI I played Elite back on the ZX Spectum, then the Amiga - and I was the type of person to have a folder just for Frontier when it came out.

In ED - I enjoy exploring the galaxy, trading, and even making videos out of it, and have embraced social media to create a character for myself. I do sometimes use that character on here to wind people up, but a lot of the time the people I reply to do bring it upon themselves. Other times the real me does slip through and I show my frustration much like this post. But one thing I've never done is hidden who I am behind a cloak of anonymity, it's pretty easy to link my character to my real life self.

I'm invested.

Another facet is I also like to fight and I have a persona that is a bit of a anti-hero - not evil, but not the nicest either because it's the antithesis of the real me that RP allows. A lot of it involves PvP - sometimes that is consensual, and some sometimes it isn't - but all of it is perfectly legal within the constraints of the game world provided by Frontier, such as bounty hunting or pirating, or combat in one of the many warzones where you see a player on the other side - of course they need to be the first thing you destroy.

Sadly there are a few bad eggs out there - people who do what gets called "griefing", "ganking", "PKing" - they do it because that's what they find a type of gameplay available to them at the moment because it's an incomplete game. Elite: Dangerous at the moment is essentially an infrastructure that needs testing.

Hey guess what? Those bad eggs - they'll soon get bored of this game and move on. And more will come, and again they'll get bored and move on, ad nauseum.

What this has lead to is a small, but vocal minority (some who have what I call "Alpha Backer Complex", and others "Bitter Vet Syndrome") who can't separate the two. I actually think these are the people who really "don't get" this game.

These are the type of people who think Frontier only made a game for them. These are the type of people that say they will play solo as some kind of threat (and I'm sure were a big part of making sure it made it in to the final game). They automatically turn and accuse everyone of wanting to shoot another human player in the game of being "griefers", "gankers" - I've ever heard "hackers" be used because they may have been the victims of a 1-shot from a distance - not taking in to account some people might just be good at that.

They especially like to accuse anyone who has ever played games like Eve Online in the past because apparently you can't have played that and not been a - well lets see, so far I've been called a "psychopath", "sociopath" and even just downright "evil" because apparently I want to bring everything over from that game. FYI personally I was never in any of the big bad alliances, I wasn't even that regular a player (since 2009 I amassed 20m skill points, pretty much nothing) - I mostly played a Low-sec pirate who did both consensual and non-consensual PvP because that was allowed in the constraints of the game. I cancelled my subscription as soon as PB landed.

Funnily enough these people do remain rather anonymous as it's very easy for them to shout this stuff behind that cloak without realising that there is actually a person they're aiming it at.

For me especially it's because I chose to join a social group that happened to form on the same website as a Eve group with the same name. The name was not chosen because of the links to them, but because of tradition of the site. This lead to accusations of being the type of person who likes to "fake" and "back stab" people.

You are saying this about myself and my friends. It's not very nice. Quite frankly I've become sick and tired of the attacks on here - even if not directed, by association you are making assumptions about the type of people we are.

I, and many others like me, are the type of person you want in the game, and here on the forums - we're invested. We're the type of people that will spend more money on this game as long as Frontier don't shut every avenue of what we consider fun down, because a vocal minority complain (and by the way I don't think they ever will - Frontier only ever have to answer to their shareholders and if allowing players to murder each other means they can make 3 or 4 times the profit - trust me they'll add that feature in). By us being around, your game can also last a lot longer.

For me, I might have only come in at Premium Beta but that was due to my personal circumstances at the time. Since them I've bought a HOTAS and DK2. I've purchased Creative Cloud because of ED - as I enjoy making videos that show off the game. I've posted on this forum 610 times up till now. I'm not here to ruin anything for anyone else because it actually ruins it for me. I'm Invested.

I know a lot more feel the same.

Remember folks, I'm not defending my need to play the game here - I'm defending myself and fellow PvP-style players who have received general and personal attacks against their character.

Rant over


I approve of this product/service.

The EVE player thing is especially funny(as one myself), because, as I've essentially said in other posts, YOU WANT US HERE. It's like that scene in Bad Boys 2, when Will Smith and Martin Lawrence grab Dan Marino's car(that he was test driving)and said to him: "we're gonna test drive the (blank) out of this". That's exactly what the devs should want, and the players too. We're test driving this thang. We need to bust it up, twist it, stretch it, expand it, so when it breaks, the devs rebuild that part stronger.

It's the whole point of a beta.
 
I approve of this product/service.

The EVE player thing is especially funny(as one myself), because, as I've essentially said in other posts, YOU WANT US HERE. It's like that scene in Bad Boys 2, when Will Smith and Martin Lawrence grab Dan Marino's car(that he was test driving)and said to him: "we're gonna test drive the (blank) out of this". That's exactly what the devs should want, and the players too. We're test driving this thang. We need to bust it up, twist it, stretch it, expand it, so when it breaks, the devs rebuild that part stronger.

It's the whole point of a beta.

If I could give you rep for this post I would, but I've apparently given out too much. So here is a cookie instead:

ToMFduI.png
 
Thank you for this post! Very well written.
First off - If you want someone to behave a certain way, you need to offer reinforcement/incentives tied to your targeted behavior. If you want someone to stop behaving a certain way, you need to administer punishment directly tied to that behavior or remove incentives associated with that behavior.

Second off - The "Getting It" threads all have to do with one player not approving of another player's behavior. The subsequent discussions are important for sharing our thoughts and values, but ultimately the only set of values that matters are the developers'. It is their vision of how players should behave that we are attempting to "get."

While I appreciate the viewpoint that some element of roleplaying must exist and some social rules must exist, not everyone who plays this game will have those values. Furthermore, a diverse range of values and behaviors are what makes multiplayer worlds interesting.

Balance is being sought to weigh the values of many different players against the vision of how developers want players to behave. The values that govern how players behave should not be ambiguously set by our internal moral compass. They should be clearly defined within the context of the game.

For example, if the developers really don't want want players to randomly attack each other, they have the ability to create a system in which players can only damage another player's ship when both parties consent. That is clearly not the case. They leave open the possibility that players may commit random acts of violence. Surely they don't want this to behavior to happen often, so they create a system of fines and bounties to discourage (but not eliminate) the likeliness of this behavior happening often. The severity of the fines and bounties need some balancing; but it is a much more appealing method of shaping behavior than relying on someone to "get it" in my view.

In the spirit of sharing opinions - I personally wouldn't separate open or solo play. I want the danger and unpredictability of emergent human behavior to be present. If it were my show to run, there would be only one mode. Rich worlds with governments would have severe fines and quick responses to discourage (but not disallow) even the most seasoned human pilots from engaging in assault and piracy. Poorer government worlds would still have severe fines, but responses would be slower or weaker. This would encourage players to factor in the danger of their ultimate destination. As it stands, I don't think many players care if a system is anarchy or not - Elite doesn't feel Dangerous.
 
Freedom, with consequences.

I was going to start this post by saying that I had some sympathy for those who don't "get it".

This is because I realised that not getting it is easy, when the biggest elements that will shape player behaviours (and therefore impact on player freedom) haven't ever been implemented.

When the background sim comes fully online, with all the (positive and negative) reputational implications tied together with consequence driven mechanics and their inevitable impact on behaviour, then, and only then, will some people begin to understand the implications of the three words we hear often from FDevs - freedom with consequences.

Freedom in ED comes with a price against an evolving backdrop. Those who accept and/or seek out the (positive and negative) consequences of their own behaviour are the ones who will be playing long after release, relishing the depth of constantly interacting with an environment that reacts in turn, whatever you may have chosen to do. When that environment includes other players, the possibilities for interesting emergent play (co-operative and adversarial) provide added sticking power. When it also includes massive story driven events, the possibilities just increase further.

I said I was going to start with sympathy for those who don't "get it", but then realised I have little or none to offer. Caveat emptor, to those who don't read in deeply enough to see the shape the game has long since strived towards.

Freedom, with real and realtime consequences with short and long term implications, in a constantly evolving vast multiplayer area, in space, in the Elite galaxy, with my story based on me, and my ship, and the choices I make. Right on Cmdrs - bring it on.
 
Be warned.

I started this reply as a direct response to the OP - but it's pretty much come out as me defending myself and the hundreds of players on here who are like me, but due to a vocal minority are quickly becoming frustrated with what we see here every day.

Ok, Rant ahead... this one has been brewing for a while now.

OSC2wDyl.jpg


Outside of all of this I'm just a normal guy who gets on with his day to day life.

Inside ED however - I'm one of many facets. FYI I played Elite back on the ZX Spectum, then the Amiga - and I was the type of person to have a folder just for Frontier when it came out.

In ED - I enjoy exploring the galaxy, trading, and even making videos out of it, and have embraced social media to create a character for myself. I do sometimes use that character on here to wind people up, but a lot of the time the people I reply to do bring it upon themselves. Other times the real me does slip through and I show my frustration much like this post. But one thing I've never done is hidden who I am behind a cloak of anonymity, it's pretty easy to link my character to my real life self.

I'm invested.

Another facet is I also like to fight and I have a persona that is a bit of a anti-hero - not evil, but not the nicest either because it's the antithesis of the real me that RP allows. A lot of it involves PvP - sometimes that is consensual, and some sometimes it isn't - but all of it is perfectly legal within the constraints of the game world provided by Frontier, such as bounty hunting or pirating, or combat in one of the many warzones where you see a player on the other side - of course they need to be the first thing you destroy.

Sadly there are a few bad eggs out there - people who do what gets called "griefing", "ganking", "PKing" - they do it because that's what they find a type of gameplay available to them at the moment because it's an incomplete game. Elite: Dangerous at the moment is essentially an infrastructure that needs testing.

Hey guess what? Those bad eggs - they'll soon get bored of this game and move on. And more will come, and again they'll get bored and move on, ad nauseum.

What this has lead to is a small, but vocal minority (some who have what I call "Alpha Backer Complex", and others "Bitter Vet Syndrome") who can't separate the two. I actually think these are the people who really "don't get" this game.

These are the type of people who think Frontier only made a game for them. These are the type of people that say they will play solo as some kind of threat (and I'm sure were a big part of making sure it made it in to the final game). They automatically turn and accuse everyone of wanting to shoot another human player in the game of being "griefers", "gankers" - I've ever heard "hackers" be used because they may have been the victims of a 1-shot from a distance - not taking in to account some people might just be good at that.

They especially like to accuse anyone who has ever played games like Eve Online in the past because apparently you can't have played that and not been a - well lets see, so far I've been called a "psychopath", "sociopath" and even just downright "evil" because apparently I want to bring everything over from that game. FYI personally I was never in any of the big bad alliances, I wasn't even that regular a player (since 2009 I amassed 20m skill points, pretty much nothing) - I mostly played a Low-sec pirate who did both consensual and non-consensual PvP because that was allowed in the constraints of the game. I cancelled my subscription as soon as PB landed.

Funnily enough these people do remain rather anonymous as it's very easy for them to shout this stuff behind that cloak without realising that there is actually a person they're aiming it at.

For me especially it's because I chose to join a social group that happened to form on the same website as a Eve group with the same name. The name was not chosen because of the links to them, but because of tradition of the site. This lead to accusations of being the type of person who likes to "fake" and "back stab" people.

You are saying this about myself and my friends. It's not very nice. Quite frankly I've become sick and tired of the attacks on here - even if not directed, by association you are making assumptions about the type of people we are.

I, and many others like me, are the type of person you want in the game, and here on the forums - we're invested. We're the type of people that will spend more money on this game as long as Frontier don't shut every avenue of what we consider fun down, because a vocal minority complain (and by the way I don't think they ever will - Frontier only ever have to answer to their shareholders and if allowing players to murder each other means they can make 3 or 4 times the profit - trust me they'll add that feature in). By us being around, your game can also last a lot longer.

For me, I might have only come in at Premium Beta but that was due to my personal circumstances at the time. Since them I've bought a HOTAS and DK2. I've purchased Creative Cloud because of ED - as I enjoy making videos that show off the game. I've posted on this forum 610 times up till now. I'm not here to ruin anything for anyone else because it actually ruins it for me. I'm Invested.

I know a lot more feel the same.

Remember folks, I'm not defending my need to play the game here - I'm defending myself and fellow PvP-style players who have received general and personal attacks against their character.

Rant over

Thats a very long quote, those that have not read it : Read It !
Hey Titus, Chill man , :) you and OP actually agree...
You do things, because it suits your ingame purpose, t hat is what OP is advocating....
I can not see any contradictions, in fact the policies in both posts are very much the same imo.
Cheers Cmdr's
 
Thats a very long quote, those that have not read it : Read It !
Hey Titus, Chill man , :) you and OP actually agree...
You do things, because it suits your ingame purpose, t hat is what OP is advocating....
I can not see any contradictions, in fact the policies in both posts are very much the same imo.
Cheers Cmdr's

Indeed, I even repped his post. I just (as I said before) think it's ashame he posted it in this thread rather than one of the PvP threads. I am not responding to some of things though because I don't want this thread to become another PvP one. We have enough of those.
 
Thats a very long quote, those that have not read it : Read It !
Hey Titus, Chill man , :) you and OP actually agree...
You do things, because it suits your ingame purpose, t hat is what OP is advocating....
I can not see any contradictions, in fact the policies in both posts are very much the same imo.
Cheers Cmdr's

Yea, I suppose I wasn't too clear at the start that I actually wasn't against the OP in my reply. It was a post on general agreement, then my fingers just started writing and it ended up what it was.

It's more a reply in general to a certain undertone on the forum - but it's the "getting it" that's important here.

Oh and I'm much more chill now that I got it out of my system :)
 
Yea, I suppose I wasn't too clear at the start that I actually wasn't against the OP in my reply. It was a post on general agreement, then my fingers just started writing and it ended up what it was.

It's more a reply in general to a certain undertone on the forum - but it's the "getting it" that's important here.

Oh and I'm much more chill now that I got it out of my system :)

Sadly Titus I think that the few you mention have ruined the reputation for PvP in general. Also I'm Ex-EVE and I like PvP. :p
 
People will always do what they want in games, even when its at odds with what is the perceived intent of the game.

The solution is repercussions, or cause and effect.

Someone who plays like a psychopath or socio-path should be treated like one by the game world. If you go around murdering everyone you see, you should expect to quickly become unwelcome in that faction space. Eventually they should only be able to dock in Anarchic systems, where they are forced to survive along side others with a similar mindset.
 
People will always do what they want in games, even when its at odds with what is the perceived intent of the game.

The solution is repercussions, or cause and effect.

Someone who plays like a psychopath or socio-path should be treated like one by the game world. If you go around murdering everyone you see, you should expect to quickly become unwelcome in that faction space. Eventually they should only be able to dock in Anarchic systems, where they are forced to survive along side others with a similar mindset.

I believe that's the plan.
 
"Getting it" is understanding how open the game is. Some players complain when games are too railed and demand more sandboxing. When they get a complete sandbox in a game, they then turn around and say: "What do I do?"

You can't win with them.

The premise of Elite, since it's first incarnation in 1984, has always been: You've got a basic ship and 1000 credits, let's see what you can do with it now that you're on your own in a big, wide galaxy. It's like a videogame version of a right of passage. I sometimes think that it might be a good idea for Frontier to do something like that in real life when the full game is released...

Take ten people, give them each £100 and the loan of a second-hand mini-van, then throw them out into the big, wide world to make their fortune.

It'd be a good publicity stunt ;)
 
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Take ten people, give them each £100 and the loan of a second-hand mini-van, then throw them out into the big, wide world to make their fortune.

It'd be a good publicity stunt ;)

I believe that's called "The Apprentice" :D They are all bloody useless
 
Bottom line is this:

'Ultimate Freedom, Play It Your Way'

I don't see there is a definitive answer to 'getting it' because its different for each of us and subjective. For example, I find trading a bit dull, the things I enjoy about ED are the combat and piloting, exploration and adventure against the backdrop of galactic anarchy and intrigue. But who am I to tell someone who has their heart set on trading that they don't get it? If thats how they want to play I'm cool with that.

So I'm not going to be told what Elite Dangerous is or how its meant to be played because like said person who just wants to trade, I can make that decision for myself. :)

Now lets stop this nitpicking and enjoy the game how we want without the moral crusade. ;)

Why do you keep calling people unskilled farm workers?

I don't - you should try to get more fun out of life ;)
 
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Enjoying this thread a lot!

The nub of the issue for me is the current Beta mechanics have not matured to the point where your choices have meaningful consequences.

For example I can purchase a freighter, remove the shields and install cargo modules. I can then fill it with the most expensive cargo I wish, jump to any system without a thought for its level of government dock and sell my goods. We all know what should happen to me if it is an anarchy system, be it from NPC or PC, I should be set upon by all and sundry with no expectation of state help.

I have not played around with shooting other commanders to see how I can get away with it yet, not really my play style, but brazen attacks in a civilized system should attract state forces and result in consequences. I might go test this out to see what impact it has ... this is beta after all.

Perhaps it is the EVE player in me that needs to be punished by the game if I do something stupid. As it stands the way this virtual world plays feels void of real choice and impact, which leads to a "not getting it" feeling.

Don't get me wrong I am really enjoying the game, can see the foundations are in place, the DDA shows they intend to add consequences and the team clearly have a track record of delivering. I just wanted to put another dimension to the "not getting it" theme based on the discussion so far.
 
Now lets stop this nitpicking and enjoy the game how we want without the moral crusade. ;)

No moral crusade, just explaining the best way to get something out of ED. However you want to play. Be it as a psychopath or an honourable citizen. If you immerse yourself in the role, accept the consequences as being part of the narrative and work around them inside the societies you find yourself. There's no moral judgement in this post about how you should play the game.
 
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There is a way to play Elite with other players AND not have the griefing.... no players randomly killing you.... no player on player pirates etc

But still get all the other benefits of Elite as a multi player :)

...join us.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with the OP about how this is basically a roleplaying game, whether each player intentionally approaches it that way or not. I do think there are a few extenuating circumstances, which complicate the idea that "you should follow the rules of the society in which you now find yourself."

The first small complication is that the game starts every single player with a gun in their hand. Some people will buy this game without doing much research first, so they won't know in advance the depth it has for doing things besides killing other ships. Taken on face value, the game does pretty much say "go out and kill something" from the very first frame.

I don't think that should change, given the focus of the earlier games in the series and the worldbuilding concept that you're entering a dangerous Galaxy. But I think we have to go a little easy on people who follow the lead the game gives them, right from the start. Maybe there will be more guidance in the final game, possibly a different focus in the tutorials? But this problem will still exist to a degree. Put anyone in a sandbox game or RPG with a gun in their hand, and it generates expectations for what the game is about.

There should be plenty of knuckle-slapping by the Authorities in the starter systems to reinforce the "social contract" in those systems, but in a way, it's fighting the initial impression the game gives you.

The other complication is that while I agree, in general, with the premise that we should follow the rules of the society in which we find ourselves, those rules will change across the gradient from civilized core systems to a relatively lawless and sparsely populated frontier. And then beyond, into deep space. Players will be able to choose where they want to operate along that gradient, including out on the fringe where there will be no rules aside from the ones you adopt for yourself.

It's going to be fascinating to see how that plays out, because the most antisocial form of PvP, the type even many PvP-focused players don't condone, almost requires being close to the core systems where new players are learning how the game works, and where it's a "target rich" environment compared to the outer fringes. Out on the true frontier, you're likely to meet only the more hardened ships and pilots. There might be an informal "Code of the West" adopted in those areas, where you don't lightly take on another pilot in combat without good reason, and some risk. Interesting times ahead, I think.
 
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